What do you believe?

Author: Discipulus_Didicit

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@Discipulus_Didicit

Paris is the capital of France, but do you know the capital of Paris?

My assumption here is that you are asking me what the capital building is, something equivilant perhaps to the Russian Kremlin or U.S. Capitol, to which my answer would be no.

P.

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@Discipulus_Didicit
According to post 12 one of things is creationism. Would you like to give a brief general description of how you came to that conclusion?
in a debate one normally lays out one's reasons in a neat list of bullet points, together with nice, logical argument.   in the real world we acquire our beliefs about the world chaotically.  I didn't sit down with reasons for evolution in one column and reasons aginst it in another.  As a kid i read a lot of science books and magazines and had the barest minimum of exposure to religion.  I don't even remember learning about evolution.  if you told me at age 11 there were people who took gen 1 as fact I probably wouldn't have believed you!  

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@keithprosser
Interesting. This is way off-topic but my experience was different. By the age of 12 I had attended services or ceremonies of... Let me think... Mormon, Wiccan, Baptist, Orthodox, Catholic... at least five different religions that I can think of off the top of my head.

I never believed any of it, though I would often pretend to believe in the Mormon or Wiccan teachings for social reasons depending on who I was around (the people in my life that were in those other groups were generally less controlling)

When it finally came out that I did not actually believe in any supernatural stuff I remember my mom asking "so what, you mean you're an athiest?" and I had to ask her what that meant. I had lived as an athiest for years without even knowing the word.

But to get back on topic... I am left wondering whether growing up the way you did really is really the reason you believe creationism to be bullshit or whether it was perhaps just a catylist that allowed other reasons to lead you to that conclusion. Is there anything, even outside of a debate setting as you say, that you could learn or experience that would convince you that this belief is innaccurate?
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@Discipulus_Didicit


I am left wondering whether growing up the way you did really is really the reason you believe creationism to be bullshit or whether it was perhaps just a catylist that allowed other reasons to lead you to that conclusion.
i said 'nonsense', not bullshit!  BS makes it sound i'm a zealot!

you are correct - there is a y in catalyst but your aim was a bit off!

Is there anything, even outside of a debate setting as you say, that you could learn or experience that would convince you that this belief is innaccurate?
Of course. I have an open mind and I always evaluate fresh information fully and objetively. 

Now that was bullshit!   I can invent fanciful scenrios where I'd have to change my mind about creationism, but in the real world that ain't gonna happen.  
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i said 'nonsense', not bullshit!  BS makes it sound i'm a zealot! 

Very well. Perhaps I was unconsciously projecting, for I believe some aspects of it to be nonsense and also BS, though I think myself not to be a zealot. That is however a seperate conversation for a seperate venue, if you wished to have it. For now I simply accept your correction.

You are correct - there is a y in catalyst but your aim was a bit off!

I think it likely that I spelled the word incorrectly and the spellchecker on my phone chose to correct it that way instead of the other and I missed it during my proofreading. Looking at it now it is very clearly spelled incorrectly and I doubt I typed it like that...

Of course. I have an open mind and I always evaluate fresh information fully and objetively.  

Now that was bullshit!   I can invent fanciful scenrios where I'd have to change my mind about creationism, but in the real world that ain't gonna happen.

But that is not my point at all. I am trying to get at the heart of your reason for believing creationism to be nonsense.

You previously said that you came across this conclusion as a result of things learned as a child, and now say say you "always evaluate information fully and objectively".

Out of these two this process of 'evaluating information objectively' seems to be closer to being an answer to my question, and it seems to me based on your answers thusfar that I should conclude it is actually the case that I was correct in saying that your childhood experiences were "just a catalyst that allowed other reasons to lead you to that conclusion" and not a reason in themselves, and that this process of 'evaluating information objectively' whoch you speak of is an accurate description of what those other reasons might be.

If you think this conclusion of mine unsound, then please say so.

If you think this conclusion sound, however, then we are certainly closer to the answer of why you believe creationism to be nonsense than we were before.

But perhaps you will indulge me, if my previous conclusion was indeed sound, to please give a brief description of what your criteria are when you objectively evaluate new information, that we may come to a more precise answer to this question I have asked.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I believe in my moral values
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@Vader
Very well, if you wish to speak on this topic we may do so.

If we are to do so though you would need to clarify a few things before we begin. "Believe in" is a term with multiple potential meanings. Perhaps you mean that you believe these values exist (either objectively or subjectively), perhaps you mean that you believe your values are superior to others, perhaps you mean something else. Please clarify.

A brief and generalized description of what your moral values are would be helpful as well. 
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I practice Orthodox Christianity(that is my religion).

I believe in Conservatism 

-I believe we should increase in school therapy for mentally challenged peoples vs removing the right to bare arms
-I believe in tax cuts for the middle class and increase in taxes for the rich
-I believe we should remove welfare and food stamps so middle class doesn't pay for it
-I believe university and school should be free to all who are interest. Free education is key
-I believe in keeping strong relations with countries
-I believe in Capitalism as a economy, not an religion
-Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth
Goldtop
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Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth
"An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind" - Ghandi

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So it seems that you are saying that your moral values are better than other moral values. Is this a correct understanding? (as with the rest of this thread, I won't be challenging whether your belief is true, but instead to discover other things.)

If the above is incorrect, please correct it.

But anyway, remember that I did not ask you to give me two or three examples of things that you conclude from your moral values, but to briefly explain the general idea underlying them. Is it possible for you to do this in a few sentences or less?
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@Vader
I forgot to tag you in the post I replied to you with (post 40)
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yes, wouldn't a lot of people say so?
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@Vader

So it seems that you are saying that your moral values are better than other moral values. Is this a correct understanding?
Yes, wouldn't a lot of people say so?
Certainly, I think most would, and thank you for the clarification. As I said before the term "I believe" is only two words and therefore on its own can mean a great many things.

But still we have not begun to look further into this, and I think it would be best if we first clarify one more thing, that is: a brief and generalized description of what your moral values are. Remember that I did not ask you to give me examples of things that you conclude from your moral values, which is what you have done, but instead to briefly explain the general idea underlying your values. Is it possible for you to do this in a few sentences or less?

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Remember that I did not ask you to give me examples of things that you conclude from your moral values, which is what you have done, but instead to briefly explain the general idea underlying your values. Is it possible for you to do this in a few sentences or less?
That's something you'll unlikely receive from any Christians considering they are not taught morals or ethics, they are taught to heed commands, but they have no idea why because their holy book never explains. This is why they'll tell you on one hand they are supposed to love everyone then turn around and discriminate against the very same people they are supposed to love, due to some other verse that commands them to discriminate or hate.

Christians have no moral compass, they only regurgitate the commands from Scriptures or intrepreted commands from their religous leaders and will often either contradict themselves or be hypocrites by doing one thing then telling you not to do the very same thing. It's easy for them to lie, but they don't know they're lying because they haven't the capacity or capability to understand what they're doing is wrong.

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@Discipulus_Didicit
I believe I exist.

Are you questioning your own existence?

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@Goldtop
That's something you'll unlikely receive from any Christians considering they are not taught morals or ethics, they are taught to heed commands, but they have no idea why because their holy book never explains.

That doesn't seem like an issue for the purposes of this conversation. If these words you say are true then he can say "I get my morals from my holy book" and the examination may begin.

I do not know whether the words you speak are true or false however, and surely if I wished to know what Supa believed I would say "Supa, what do you believe?" (as I have) and I would surely not say "Goldtop, what does Supa believe?"
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@Reece
I believe I exist.

Would you be willing to examine the reasons that you believe this, as others in this thread have begun to examine the reasons for their beliefs, though none as of yet have reached a conclusion?

Are you questioning your own existence?

No. You are the one that brought up existing, not I.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
briefly explain the general idea underlying your values

That doesn't seem like an issue for the purposes of this conversation.
I assumed it would be based on what you asked about values as I suspected you were looking for the reasons why someone has moral values. To say they came from Scriptures is fine, but that means the person doesn't understand how morals and ethics are understood.

If one says they get their morals and ethics from using reason, logic and compassion, then one has a basis for dealing with most moral and ethical issues. But, if all they can say is they get their morals from Scriptures, then they have no clue how to deal with moral and ethical issues and will find they will often contradict themselves or simply do the wrong thing, which is often what we observe.

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@Goldtop
The purpose of this thread is not to finish the  cross-examination of Euthyphro that Socrates began.

The purpose of this thread is instead to examine the reasons behind ones beliefs. Do you have such a deeply-held belief that you wish to be examined, or are you here just to stalk Supa?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
The purpose of this thread is not to finish the  cross-examination of Euthyphro that Socrates began.

The purpose of this thread is instead to examine the reasons behind ones beliefs.
The latter was exactly what I was referring, not the former.

Do you have such a deeply-held belief that you wish to be examined, or are you here just to stalk Supa?
I'm not here to stalk anyone. Just because Supa hasn't the capacity for honest discussion yet continues to respond to me shows something entirely different, that he's using that as an excuse, as do many theists here, that they are being stalked or victimized in some way. He supports discrimination, I'm assuming you have no problem with that or are you defending him?

So, as you can see, my responses to you were in fact responses to your inquiries and not to stalk anyone.
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@Goldtop

The purpose of this thread is not to finish the cross-examination of Euthyphro that Socrates began.

The purpose of this thread is instead to examine the reasons behind ones beliefs.
The latter was exactly what I was referring, not the former.

If this is true rather than a lie then do not dance around the topic, tell me the nature of this belief that you hold and wish to examine. A dialogue in which only one person knows the topic of the conversation would be quite a one-sided dialogue indeed.
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@Discipulus_Didicit

The universe is singular is it not? We are just two sides of a multidimensional coin. 
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@Reece
What do you mean by the universe being singular, and only after you answer that tell me this: why do you think this is so?

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@Discipulus_Didicit
Partly to do with my belief in solipsism.

I knew we were going to go down this road. 
Do you now see why I asked that question at the start?
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@Reece
Partly to do with my belief in solipsism.

Well, if this is the case then if we are to go any further I see no choice but to ask why you hold this belief in solipsism, for you have cornered my by responding to my inquiry into the reason for one belief by stating a different belief.

Therefore I must next ask... What is the reason that you hold this belief in solipsism, and how confident are you that this belief is accurate?

I knew we were going to go down this road. 
Do you now see why I asked that question at the start?

I maintain that it was you, not I, that chose for your existence to be the topic.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Wait, can we start over. I've got a better belief that you'll enjoy because I've pretty much already won.

I believe everything exists.

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Wait, can we start over. I've got a better belief that you'll enjoy because I've pretty much already won.
Uhhh... wait... this was some sort of contest or game? I think someone should have told me if that were the case, and explained the rules and the win conditions... It is not fair for only one side to know the rules, and even less fair for only one side to even know that there is a contest occurring.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Be fair....you never told anyone the game is 'street epistemology'.  

It's a rubbish game.
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@keithprosser
I think I was clear enough in describing the goal of the thread. I avoided only the actual words 'street epistemology', and even then only because I don't think it likely that most have ever heard the term before.

An analogy might be saying "Let's put these ingredients together and throw them into an oven following this cake recipe" rather than saying "Let's bake a cake"

I suppose you could say it is a game, but usually when I think of a game there is a winner or winners and a loser or losers, which in this case there clearly is not.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
I believe that you won't have enough time to ask all of us our questions because there are so many of us and the number of questions you will have to answer will be increasing at a fast rate.