Was Jesus a liar and a lunatic?

Author: Harikrish

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@RationalMadman
OT is much more honest than NT so god of the world is the correct answer if the fictional world of the Bible were true.
Remember Jesus was tempted by Satan. So Satan was in the world. See Matthew 4:1-11.

If Satan is still in the world then Jesus's mission was a failure. That's like leaving the Serpent with Adam and Eve. 

40 days later

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Why did Jesus find it so difficult to convince the people of his time that he was a messiah? Let us exagmine some of the methods he used to shed light on why he failed in his mission, Which was to save the lost people of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. " -

Jesus tried to convince the people John tbe Baptist was the Elijah, The Elijah that was to come before the Lord. But John denied he was Elijah.
John 1:21 "Then who are you? " they inquired. "Are you Elijah? " He said, "I am not. " "Are you the Prophet? " He answered, "No. "

John the Baptiat was expecting a messiah that would deliver the people from their sins and Roman occupation. But instead Jesus went around playing doctor which cause John to doubt Jesus was the promised deliverer.
Matthew 11:3 to ask Him, "Are You the One who was to come, Or should we look for someone else? . . .

Jesus tried to convince the people through miracles that he was the messiah. But the people ignored his trickery and threatened to stone him for blasphemy.
John 10:33 "We are not stoning You for any good work, " said the Jews, "but for blasphemy, Because You, Who are a man, Declare Yourself to be God. "

Jesus then tried other gimmicks to convince the people. He tried to destroy the traditional family. That didn't work.
Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, But a sword. 35 For I have come to turn ""a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother, A daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law"
36 a man"s enemies will be the members of his own household. "[c]

He promised them they would be saved if they ate his flesh and drank his blood. The people walked away in disgust.
John 6: 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, And I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, And I in them.
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Jesus's family and the people who knew him were convinced he was a demon possessed madman.
Mark 3:21 When His family heard about this, They went out to take custody of Him, Saying, "He is out of His mind. "
John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him? . . .

Jesus seeing he was losing the people decided to lay low for a while. He told his disciple to keep his identity a secret.
Matthew 16:20 Then He admonished the disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.

So what made Jesus come out of the closet and go against he better instincts and self preservation. His drinking and alcoholism finally got to him. After some heavy drinking at Passover festival Jesus went out to pray. He prayed to God to take away the cup he was drinking from. His alcoholism was now apparent. He even stumbled and fell on his face in his drunken stupor.
Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, He fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, If it is possible, May this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, But as you will. "

The next day Jesus was arrested and tried, Convicted and crucified. On the cross Jesus lamented. For someone with a messiah complex it had to be disappointing.
Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, Lema sabachthani? " which means, "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me? "

Even the Pope declared Jesus's life was a failure and the cross a failure of God.

Pope Francis said during his whirlwind U. S. Tour. "And if at times OUR EFFORTS AND WORKS SEEM TO FAIL AND PRODUCE NO FRUIT, We need to REMEMBER that WE ARE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS we are followers of Jesus. . . And His LIFE, Humanly speaking, ENDED IN FAILURE, THE FAILURE OF THE CROSS. "

When you don"t understand something, When desperation hits you then look at the cross. THAT IS THE GREAT FAILURE OF GOD, THAT IS THE DESTRUCTION OF GOD, AND IT'S A CHALLENGE TO OUR FAITH.

8 days later

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@Harikrish
Regarding your first post (OP), you take verse after verse and misrepresent the teaching of Scripture by collapsing contexts, insinuating that it was a main teaching and not an aberration of the apostles and teachings regarding Jesus. Next, you compile a list of liberal activists (appeal to authority - or those who present a favourable to your position article) and refer others to that article or person. Third, you swamp the threads with biased, unfair and misrepresentations of what Christianity teaches to sway minds to your biased position (a bombarding of posts, 12 so far in your war against Christianity). Fourth, your eisegesis concerns nothing of the audience of address (you present an entirely new audience that you make up) or the timeframe (apply it as primarily addressing those today or pay little attention to what the authors meant in time statements) and what it meant to that audience.

For instance, John 10:20 with more of the context:

19 A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words. 20 Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?” 21 Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?” (NASB)

***

What of the Jews of the 1st-century? Many of them were looking for a Messiah who would fulfill their corrupted view of Scripture. The NT makes it clear that their minds, ears, eyes, were closed in understanding, blocked, and blind to the spiritual truth of Scripture, just as I claim yours are, Harikrish. 

More of the passage reveals why they were so upset - they were not His sheep. They were in rebellion against God as Isaiah pointed out in that He [Jesus] would speak in parables (Hosea 12:10Ezekiel 20:49Matthew 13:9-11, etc) and present types and anti-types, and they would not understand Him. Remember the context of the NT is one of a soon-coming judgment on Israel for their idolatry.


Matthew 13:14-17 (NASB)
14 In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
You will keep on hearing, but will not understand;
You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive;
15 For the heart of this people has become dull,
With their ears they scarcely hear,
And they have closed their eyes,
Otherwise they would see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart and return,
And I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

***

More of the context of John 10,  

11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

So, even though Scripture gives these honest examples of dissent it does not present an unfavourable reading of who Jesus is and what He came to do overall, but more of what some of the JEWS of the day perceived Him

***

Now, regarding my experience in dialogue with Harikrish and a likely scenario, based on these previous encounters. He will swamp the next posts with all kinds of superficial and irrelevant quotes from Scripture that have nothing to do with this John 10:20 passage like he did on the discussion I had with him on John the Baptist. On that particular argument, he centred on one saying of John the Baptist and read into Scripture and built all kinds of innuendo that had nothing to do with the content or explanation given in the context. 

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So, even though Scripture gives these honest examples of dissent it does not present an unfavourable reading of who Jesus is and what He came to do overall, but more of what some of the JEWS of the day perceived Him.

Let us test your conclusion.

1. Jesus said he was sent only to save the lost sheep of Israel
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

But we know the Jews rejected Jesus and asked that he be crucified.

Luke 23:21 but they kept shouting, "Crucify Him! Crucify Him!"

2. Jesus divided the Jews even further. The Romans replaced judaism the religion that Jesus followed with The Roman Catholic Church. They replace the Holy Temple with the Roman Catholic Church. They destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jews from their homeland.


3. Jesus blamed God for his failures.
Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" 

Yet  he asked God to forgive the  Romans after insulting God.
Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up His garments by casting lots.

4. Jesus was a liar before and after his death.
Before: Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

But scriptures tell us Jesus lives in his father's house and works as a house keeper preparing rooms for guests.
John 14:My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

5. Jesus claimed he was sent by God to fulfill the laws of the prophets.

Daniel 9:25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’In the middle of the ‘seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the templehe will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

When Jesus was asked when these things would happen he was clueless.
Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Is it any wonder that Peter lied about Jesus and Judas betray him. The Jews rejected Jesus and the Romans crucified him?
Is it any wonder that 2 billion Christians picked a demon possessed madman a liar and lunatic to die for their sins. Only Christians believe an illegitimate Jewish bastard name Jesus died for their sins 2000 years ago.
Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.

Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.

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@Harikrish
If we are so stupid, how come you can't explain what we believe to our satisfaction?
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@Harikrish
So, even though Scripture gives these honest examples of dissent it does not present an unfavourable reading of who Jesus is and what He came to do overall, but more of what some of the JEWS of the day perceived Him.

Let us test your conclusion.

Your whole presentation is full of fallacious, esoteric reasoning and dishonest cherry-picking, conflating and collapsing context, and reading into Scripture things it does not teach in the fuller context. 

I invite anyone who will follow the links to see that Harikrish is conflating and confusing the teachings of Scripture, thus, he is a false teacher, someone to be wary of and ignore. 


1. Jesus said he was sent only to save the lost sheep of Israel
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
That is true. He was sent to the lost sheep, to save the remnant and bring judgment on those who REJECTED Him as their Messiah, Redeemer, and Savior. 


But we know the Jews rejected Jesus and asked that he be crucified.

Luke 23:21 but they kept shouting, "Crucify Him! Crucify Him!"

To fulfill what was prophesied (Isaiah 53; Zecharias 12, esp. v 10-11, for instance). 


2. [1] Jesus divided the Jews even further. [2] The Romans replaced judaism the religion that Jesus followed with The Roman Catholic Church. [3] They replace the Holy Temple with the Roman Catholic Church. They destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jews from their homeland.

[1] Exactly! He divided them because most were against God. For centuries they practiced idolatry and would not follow God's ways, even after He sent multiple prophets and teachers to warn them of coming judgment and wrath if they did not repent. (Matthew 10:34; Mark 2:17).

[2] The means of the Romans were God's chosen means of judgment. 

[3] No, God replaced the Old Covenant with a new and better covenant because the people were incapable of living up to that which they had agreed to do. The Old Covenant was ready to pass away and did 40-years after Jesus was crucified, per God's grace and mercy.

3. Jesus blamed God for his failures.
Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" 
Jesus became a human being to fulfill everything that humanity had not been able to fulfill in regard to God's word and the Old Covenant. Thus, taking on humanity He did not use His godly prerogatives or else what was done would not be done solely in the power and righteousness of a human being.   

Thus, acting in His human capacity He was subjected to judgment and God's wrath to fulfill God's righteousness and appease His wrath for sinfulness. Over and over in the NT, we read of what Jesus did on behalf of those who would believe in His righteous sacrifice. Not only that, there is a juxtaposition between the OT of works of righteousness and God's grace through Jesus Christ in doing what we could not do - meet the righteous standard of God on our own accord. 

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@Harikrish


Yet  he asked God to forgive the Romans after insulting God.
Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up His garments by casting lots.
During His first coming, He came to make atonement for the sins of those who would believe in Him. Thus, He forgave them for this sin, yet held them accountable during His Second Coming in AD 70 for their rejection of Him and all those He had sent to them


4.[1] Jesus was a liar before and after his death.
Before: Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
[1] He was called many things by those who did not believe in Him. So what? What do the Scriptures teach? They teach the opposite of what you are teaching. Thus, if you lived during the 1st-century Galatians 1:6-8 would have applied to you.


But scriptures tell us Jesus lives in his father's house and works as a house keeper preparing rooms for guests.
John 14:My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
As a human, He lived in obedience to fulfill all God's righteous requirements of humanity. So what?


5. Jesus claimed he was sent by God to fulfill the laws of the prophets.
True. He became human to do this. Thus, in addition to His godhood, He took on human nature. In the One Person of Jesus, there are two natures.


Daniel 9:25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’In the middle of the ‘seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the templehe will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
The fulfillment of the seventy weeks of years is explained quite well and detailed by Philip Mauro (for anyone interested). 


When Jesus was asked when these things would happen he was clueless.
He was acting in His humanity to fulfill all righteousness, thus as already explained in Philippians 2:5-8 and Hebrews 2, He acted solely in His before resurrection appearances as a human being, not using His godly prerogative but relying on the Father and the Spirit

Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
And, in His human capacity, He explains to THEM all things that will happen but not the exact day or hour of the occurrence, just the signs that would lead up to His coming again. 

Jesus also tells them elsewhere that when the Spirit, whom He will send, comes to them He [the Spirit] will guide them into all truth. He will take what is known by Him [Jesus] and the Father and transfer it to them.  


Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Is it any wonder that Peter lied about Jesus and Judas betray him.
Explained above.

The Jews rejected Jesus and the Romans crucified him?
Their hearts, ears, and eyes were not open to their Savior as stated over and over again in the NT, as prophesied in the OT.

Is it any wonder that 2 billion Christians picked a demon possessed madman a liar and lunatic to die for their sins. Only Christians believe an illegitimate Jewish bastard name Jesus died for their sins 2000 years ago.
Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.
You are mistaken and do not know the Scriptures in your deception.


Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.



Ah, yes, the great scholar who knows nothing and misleads any who would be daft enough to believe his lack of guidance!

Harikrish
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@PGA2.0
So even though Scripture gives these honest examples of dissent it does not present an unfavourable reading of who Jesus is and what He came to do overall, but more of what some of the JEWS of the day perceived Him.

Let us test your conclusion.

Your whole presentation is full of fallacious, esoteric reasoning and dishonest cherry-picking, conflating and collapsing context, and reading into Scripture things it does not teach in the fuller context.

I invite anyone who will follow the links to see that Harikrish is conflating and confusing the teachings of Scripture, thus, he is a false teacher, someone to be wary of and ignore.


1. Jesus said he was sent only to save the lost sheep of Israel
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
That is true. He was sent to the lost sheep, to save the remnant and bring judgment on those who REJECTED Him as their Messiah, Redeemer, and Savior.


But we know the Jews rejected Jesus and asked that he be crucified.

Luke 23:21 but they kept shouting, "Crucify Him! Crucify Him!"

To fulfill what was prophesied (Isaiah 53; Zecharias 12, esp. v 10-11, for instance).


2. [1] Jesus divided the Jews even further. [2] The Romans replaced judaism the religion that Jesus followed with The Roman Catholic Church. [3] They replace the Holy Temple with the Roman Catholic Church. They destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jews from their homeland.

[1] Exactly! He divided them because most were against God. For centuries they practiced idolatry and would not follow God's ways, even after He sent multiple prophets and teachers to warn them of coming judgment and wrath if they did not repent. (Matthew 10:34; Mark 2:17).

[2] The means of the Romans were God's chosen means of judgment.

[3] No, God replaced the Old Covenant with a new and better covenant because the people were incapable of living up to that which they had agreed to do. The Old Covenant was ready to pass away and did 40-years after Jesus was crucified, per God's grace and mercy.

3. Jesus blamed God for his failures.
Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"
Jesus became a human being to fulfill everything that humanity had not been able to fulfill in regard to God's word and the Old Covenant. Thus, taking on humanity He did not use His godly prerogatives or else what was done would not be done solely in the power and righteousness of a human being.  

Thus, acting in His human capacity He was subjected to judgment and God's wrath to fulfill God's righteousness and appease His wrath for sinfulness. Over and over in the NT, we read of what Jesus did on behalf of those who would believe in His righteous sacrifice. Not only that, there is a juxtaposition between the OT of works of righteousness and God's grace through Jesus Christ in doing what we could not do - meet the righteous standard of God on our own accord.

if God sent Jesus to save the Jews (house of Israel) Jesus failed!! The Romans slaughtered the Jews in 70AD and scattered them.
If God sent Jesus to save the Gentiles. It was the Romans/Gentiles who crucified Jesus which was equally a rejection of Jesus.
jesus reassured his disciples he was given all authority over heaven and earth after his resurrection.
But all his disciples were killed by 70AD. So Jesus lied about his power.
If Jesus's sacrificial death could save those who accepted and believed him. Why did he promise to return to fulfill his promise? More lies!!
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Yet he asked God to forgive the Romans after he insulted God.
Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up His garments by casting lots.
During His first coming, He came to make atonement for the sins of those who would believe in Him. Thus, He forgave them for this sin, yet held them accountable during His Second Coming in AD 70 for their rejection of Him and all those He had sent to them.
But his first coming was to save the house of Israel the Jews!!


4.[1] Jesus was a liar before and after his death.
Before: Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
[1] He was called many things by those who did not believe in Him. So what? What do the Scriptures teach? They teach the opposite of what you are teaching. Thus, if you lived during the 1st-century Galatians 1:6-8 would have applied to you.
The scriptures tell us Jesus was rejected by the Jews. He was mocked, beaten and ridiculed by the Romans and finally crucifie.

But scriptures tell us Jesus lives in his father's house and works as a house keeper preparing rooms for guests.
John 14:My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
As a human, He lived in obedience to fulfill all God's righteous requirements of humanity. So what?
Jesus said all authority was given to him, yet he ends up a housekeeper in heaven preparing rooms for  guests.

5. Jesus claimed he was sent by God to fulfill the laws of the prophets.
True. He became human to do this. Thus, in addition to His godhood, He took on human nature. In the One Person of Jesus, there are two natures.
Why did he pick the worst human qualities? Jesus was despised, ugly and held in low esteem. He behaved like a demon possessed madman.


Daniel 9:25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’In the middle of the ‘seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the templehe will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
The fulfillment of the seventy weeks of years is explained quite well and detailed by Philip Mauro (for anyone interested).


When Jesus was asked when these things would happen he was clueless.
He was acting in His humanity to fulfill all righteousness, thus as already explained in Philippians 2:5-8 and Hebrews 2, He acted solely in His before resurrection appearances as a human being, not using His godly prerogative but relying on the Father and the Spirit.

Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
And, in His human capacity, He explains to THEM all things that will happen but not the exact day or hour of the occurrence, just the signs that would lead up to His coming again.
it was Daniels prophecy. Jesus was not aware of its details. He could only shrug his shoulders.

Jesus also tells them elsewhere that when the Spirit, whom He will send, comes to them He [the Spirit] will guide them into all truth. He will take what is known by Him [Jesus] and the Father and transfer it to them. 
That was necessary because Jesus was incoherent and spoke mostly in parables that no one understood.

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Is it any wonder that Peter lied about Jesus and Judas betray him.
Explained above.

The Jews rejected Jesus and the Romans crucified him?
Their hearts, ears, and eyes were not open to their Savior as stated over and over again in the NT, as prophesied in the OT.
Daniels said the Romans would cut him off. The Jews met all the conditions set in Daniel. Jesus could not stop the Romans.

Is it any wonder that 2 billion Christians picked a demon possessed madman a liar and lunatic to die for their sins. Only Christians believe an illegitimate Jewish bastard name Jesus died for their sins 2000 years ago.
Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.
You are mistaken and do not know the Scriptures in your deception.


Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.



Ah, yes, the great scholar who knows nothing and misleads any who would be daft enough to believe his lack of guidance!

My research data matches the conclusion. Jesus was rejected and crucified because he was a blasphemous liar and a lunatic.
Even the Pope declared Jesus a failure and the cross the great failure of God.
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@Harikrish
Yet he asked God to forgive the Romans after he insulted God.
Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up His garments by casting lots.
During His first coming, He came to make atonement for the sins of those who would believe in Him. Thus, He forgave them for this sin, yet held them accountable during His Second Coming in AD 70 for their rejection of Him and all those He had sent to them.
But his first coming was to save the house of Israel the Jews!!


4.[1] Jesus was a liar before and after his death.
Before: Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
[1] He was called many things by those who did not believe in Him. So what? What do the Scriptures teach? They teach the opposite of what you are teaching. Thus, if you lived during the 1st-century Galatians 1:6-8 would have applied to you.
The scriptures tell us Jesus was rejected by the Jews. He was mocked, beaten and ridiculed by the Romans and finally crucifie.

But scriptures tell us Jesus lives in his father's house and works as a house keeper preparing rooms for guests.
John 14:My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
As a human, He lived in obedience to fulfill all God's righteous requirements of humanity. So what?
Jesus said all authority was given to him, yet he ends up a housekeeper in heaven preparing rooms for  guests.

5. Jesus claimed he was sent by God to fulfill the laws of the prophets.
True. He became human to do this. Thus, in addition to His godhood, He took on human nature. In the One Person of Jesus, there are two natures.
Why did he pick the worst human qualities? Jesus was despised, ugly and held in low esteem. He behaved like a demon possessed madman.


Daniel 9:25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’In the middle of the ‘seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the templehe will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
The fulfillment of the seventy weeks of years is explained quite well and detailed by Philip Mauro (for anyone interested).


When Jesus was asked when these things would happen he was clueless.
He was acting in His humanity to fulfill all righteousness, thus as already explained in Philippians 2:5-8 and Hebrews 2, He acted solely in His before resurrection appearances as a human being, not using His godly prerogative but relying on the Father and the Spirit.

Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
And, in His human capacity, He explains to THEM all things that will happen but not the exact day or hour of the occurrence, just the signs that would lead up to His coming again.
it was Daniels prophecy. Jesus was not aware of its details. He could only shrug his shoulders.

Jesus also tells them elsewhere that when the Spirit, whom He will send, comes to them He [the Spirit] will guide them into all truth. He will take what is known by Him [Jesus] and the Father and transfer it to them. 
That was necessary because Jesus was incoherent and spoke mostly in parables that no one understood.

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Is it any wonder that Peter lied about Jesus and Judas betray him.
Explained above.

The Jews rejected Jesus and the Romans crucified him?
Their hearts, ears, and eyes were not open to their Savior as stated over and over again in the NT, as prophesied in the OT.
Daniels said the Romans would cut him off. The Jews met all the conditions set in Daniel. Jesus could not stop the Romans.

Is it any wonder that 2 billion Christians picked a demon possessed madman a liar and lunatic to die for their sins. Only Christians believe an illegitimate Jewish bastard name Jesus died for their sins 2000 years ago.
Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.
You are mistaken and do not know the Scriptures in your deception.


Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.                --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >  [Yours]



Ah, yes, the great scholar who knows nothing and misleads any who would be daft enough to believe his lack of guidance!  ----------> [Mine]

My research data matches the conclusion. Jesus was rejected and crucified because he was a blasphemous liar and a lunatic. ------> [Yours]
Even the Pope declared Jesus a failure and the cross the great failure of God.

Your posts are hard to follow and tedious because you never properly separate the commentary between the two parties involved.  The very last paragraph above is an example. See the brackets after each sentence as an example of who said what.
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i left out the quote in your last comment. But long replies clutters the format. 
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@Mopac
FROM HARIKRISH:


i left out the quote in your last comment. But long replies clutters the format.
Which makes it difficult for anyone to understand who did not write the sentence and has not read the other posts. Agreed?
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"You have revealed your superstitious, superficial, and incorrect understanding of Christian theology time and time again. You are simply arrogant."

Lol
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If you are insinuating I am Jesus, you are wrong.
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Yet he asked God to forgive the Romans after he insulted God.
Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up His garments by casting lots.
During His first coming, He came to make atonement for the sins of those who would believe in Him. Thus, He forgave them for this sin, yet held them accountable during His Second Coming in AD 70 for their rejection of Him and all those He had sent to them.
But his first coming was to save the house of Israel the Jews!!


4.[1] Jesus was a liar before and after his death.
Before: Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
[1] He was called many things by those who did not believe in Him. So what? What do the Scriptures teach? They teach the opposite of what you are teaching. Thus, if you lived during the 1st-century Galatians 1:6-8 would have applied to you.
The scriptures tell us Jesus was rejected by the Jews. He was mocked, beaten and ridiculed by the Romans and finally crucifie.

But scriptures tell us Jesus lives in his father's house and works as a house keeper preparing rooms for guests.
John 14:My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
As a human, He lived in obedience to fulfill all God's righteous requirements of humanity. So what?
Jesus said all authority was given to him, yet he ends up a housekeeper in heaven preparing rooms for  guests.

5. Jesus claimed he was sent by God to fulfill the laws of the prophets.
True. He became human to do this. Thus, in addition to His godhood, He took on human nature. In the One Person of Jesus, there are two natures.
Why did he pick the worst human qualities? Jesus was despised, ugly and held in low esteem. He behaved like a demon possessed madman.


Daniel 9:25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One,the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’In the middle of the ‘seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the templehe will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
The fulfillment of the seventy weeks of years is explained quite well and detailed by Philip Mauro (for anyone interested).


When Jesus was asked when these things would happen he was clueless.
He was acting in His humanity to fulfill all righteousness, thus as already explained in Philippians 2:5-8 and Hebrews 2, He acted solely in His before resurrection appearances as a human being, not using His godly prerogative but relying on the Father and the Spirit.

Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
And, in His human capacity, He explains to THEM all things that will happen but not the exact day or hour of the occurrence, just the signs that would lead up to His coming again.
it was Daniels prophecy. Jesus was not aware of its details. He could only shrug his shoulders.

Jesus also tells them elsewhere that when the Spirit, whom He will send, comes to them He [the Spirit] will guide them into all truth. He will take what is known by Him [Jesus] and the Father and transfer it to them. 
That was necessary because Jesus was incoherent and spoke mostly in parables that no one understood.

Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Is it any wonder that Peter lied about Jesus and Judas betray him.
Explained above.

The Jews rejected Jesus and the Romans crucified him?
Their hearts, ears, and eyes were not open to their Savior as stated over and over again in the NT, as prophesied in the OT.
Daniels said the Romans would cut him off. The Jews met all the conditions set in Daniel. Jesus could not stop the Romans.

Is it any wonder that 2 billion Christians picked a demon possessed madman a liar and lunatic to die for their sins. Only Christians believe an illegitimate Jewish bastard name Jesus died for their sins 2000 years ago.
Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.
You are mistaken and do not know the Scriptures in your deception.


Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.



Ah, yes, the great scholar who knows nothing and misleads any who would be daft enough to believe his lack of guidance!

My research data matches the conclusion. Jesus was rejected and crucified because he was a blasphemous liar and a lunatic.
Even the Pope declared Jesus a failure and the cross the great failure of God.

In the future when you engage in a discussion lay it out properly as to who said what, please. I don't like having to sift through two lines of thought as if only one person is writing it.  
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If you are insinuating I am Jesus, you are wrong.
I'm curious to know where anyone on this thread has referred to you?

Since you are not mentioned, to my knowledge, it must not have been in connection to you whatever and whoever you are responding to since you supply no context or any other dialogue or reference point. 
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The thread title is asking if Jesus is me?
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@Lunatic
The thread title is asking if Jesus is me?
That is what you are reading into it. It is asking if a specific person, Jesus, was a liar or lunatic. There are many lunatics (of which Jesus is not one) but is your name also Jesus?

PS. I do not agree with your assessment of the KCA in relation to the biblical God revealed in Scripture (in your debate), either.
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R/Swoosh
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R/Swoosh
Which means? Was that a yes or no in response to my previous question regarding your name being Jesus?
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Not even Jesus can help you with this one mate.
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Not even Jesus can help you with this one mate.
Witty, but something tells me disingenuous since you should know your own name. I imply the answer by your shiftiness. (^8

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@Lunatic
The thread title is asking if Jesus is me?
It is also asking if Jesus was "a" Lunatic, as if there are more of you. Are you a clone? Or a robot android with multiple other identical models? When is your friend Liar going to get here? Is he also a robot? The title question implies he is. Or a clone. Like you.

I find this highly suspicious. Clearly you and your friend (who is yet absent, probably busy setting up a sniper position while you keep us all distracted, I don't doubt) are planning a takeover with your robot clone armies who may or may not be named Jesus.
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@David

Kalaam Cosmological Argument

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause;
2. The universe began to exist;
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause

***

You said in your debate:

The Kalam Cosmological Argument

Theists commonly refer to the KCA when arguing for the existence of a deity.
True, but is that unreasonable? Is it more plausible than other explanations for two premises? Is the conclusion warranted/reasonable?

If not inside the box then outside the box.

IOW's, something can't create itself or begin to exist by means of itself when it does not exist. It would have to be the source of its own existence. It is a self-refuting principle to say that something creates or is responsible for making itself. God, on the other hand, being eternal and outside the spacial, time, matter continuum (or physical realm), without beginning or end, could be a source of the universe that has a beginning. What else can? Blind chance indifferent happenstance? How does that have ABILITY to do anything? You would have to ascribe some agency, some intent, to chance. Chance is nothing but a concept. It expresses a possibility or possibilities. What can "chance" do?

It is a pretty big philosophical claim, and there is a lot to debate about the premises it raises.
So is the other side of the equation, so what? You either start with one or the other. One (God) has reason and intelligence, Mind and logic; the other is devoid of these qualities. Only personal, intelligent, mindful, conscious being would be reasoning.

So a worldview devoid of God has that irrational aspect to its belief system which starts with what? Nothing? Why? No reason? How? Unsure? 

So, it would be your naturalistic worldview that lacks what is necessary to understand the whys and hows of existence. 


A whole debate can easily center around debunking this argument, however since the resolution is broader than this argument itself, I'll try to summarize the rebuttals into a few key points.The KCA is self- refuting, The first cause, and the KCA being an argument from ignorance.
No, the KCA is an argument of reasoning, intelligent beings. God is the necessary position in coming to the truth of origins since (let me guess) you don't know it. You are not necessary for the universe or for sustaining it, are you? Why do you think chance happenstance is? That is your materialistic, naturalist presuppositional starting point, and I do not believe it is reasonable in any way. Either chance or intention. Either chance or personal, conscious Being. 

If we are to grant that everything has a cause, and still make a case for a God to have created everything, the cosmological argument than has to explain how the deity exists; which is why the KCA uses strict verbiage in it's premises.
I would beg that that would be the case of the uncreated naturalistic universe. The biblical God is a revelation. There are various reasonable and logical arguments that verify that particular God (I would argue more so than any other "God" belief system). 

The first premise, if accepted "Whatever begins to exist has a cause", frames the argument specifically to cater towards a pre-conceived agenda for theism.
Just like the argument, 1) "Whatever begins to exist does not have a cause." The argument is specifically oriented to a pre-conceived agenda also. So what, and what is more reasonable? Let me repeat, "what is more reasonable?"

We can specifically the word "Begins" to see this, suggesting that a God already existed. Obviously the question then is, if nothing was needed to cause a God, how does God surpass the 'irrefutable' logic of causation in the following premises?
Because He would be a self-existing necessary being, not deriving His existence from something else. That would be self-evident to such a worldview belief. 

What is the first actually is the first cause? A proper agnostic-atheistic answer would be that the first cause was created by natural scientific causes that we as humans (simple animals) cannot grasp or understand at our current stage of scientific research.
If you cannot grasp it then how can you logically or reasonably rule out God as that cause? Yet you construct your whole worldview on a purely naturalistic, perhaps materialistic, starting point. That is definitely a bias and I would argue that it refutes itself in many, many ways from our experience of the world and universe. 

KCA is a logical argument. You question its soundness. On what basis?
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@Lunatic
Continuing from your debate:

For Fundamentalists and Apologists to say this is a God, simply due to a lack of understanding seems then, rather fallacious thinking, as we are attributing unknown wonder to that a being with wondrous power, that translates so much into other aspect of human lifestyle, like religious theism.
Is it from a lack of understanding or from a reasonable understanding?

How is it fallacious?

Either we attribute God, gods, or impersonal, unintentional, mindless, random, chaotic, chance happenstance to the universe. 

Which is more reasonable, to think that from conscious, personal, knowing Being other personal conscious beings come or we are a product of natural processes that a random chance by nature of such a worldview? 


 What we are wrongly assuming, is that whatever this mystical non-understood potentially scientific or natural process is, people who advocate for the KCA's accuracy assume that since we cannot quantify it currently in our realm of understanding, that it is an all powerful deity who controls every aspect of material existence.
Or you presuppose the opposite which has no purpose or reason yet you continually find meaning and purpose in examining the universe, including in yourself. Not only that, how do you get uniformity of nature (things continuing to happen in the same manner so that we can formula multiple laws and principles from the universe. There would be no reason in such a universe why such things would continue to happen is the same manner they have been seen to, by chance happenstance, nor is such a view experientially demonstratable, IMO, although you could theorize on it. Lots of things can "work in theory" yet you cannot demonstrate them experientially. 

Not only is this an argument from ignorance, isn't this also a false dichotomy to assume that everything was created from nothing, or a God? Why can't there be a plethora of other unknown options attributed to the amazing phenomena of life?
Go ahead and list some of those other reasonable explanations of life. 

I see a few reasons why anything exists.
1) It was created to exist from something or someone that is self-existing.
2) It is here purely by chance happenstance --> it just happened --> thus there is no agency or intentionality to it since it is not mindful.
3) It always existed. 
4) It is an illusion. 
5) I don't care (pure total ignorance that explains virtually nothing about existence except disinterest). 

And why do you care enough to debate the topic of God's existence? Is your subjective, limited opinion something that I can know what truly is from?


My best answer to explain this jump in conclusion, is we are forming opinions based on historical mythology and social constructs already in place from media outlets and learned behaviors.
That is one opinion, yet I do not believe it, and have reasonable and logical arguments to refute it or at least cause serious doubt as to such constructs that are devoid of the biblical God.

So the choice is still yours. Do you want to believe that ultimately nothing matters and ultimately nothing is meaningful? If so, why are you being inconsistent and acting as it does?
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It is also asking if Jesus was "a" Lunatic, as if there are more of you. Are you a clone? 
We all know theres only one and only lunatic. He belongs to DART!
When is your friend Liar going to get here? Is he also a robot?

Does a DDO spambot count as a robot? If so then yes, I am one of those. Prepare for the onslaught of spam!

I find this highly suspicious. Clearly you and your friend (who is yet absent, probably busy setting up a sniper position while you keep us all distracted, I don't doubt) are planning a takeover with your robot clone armies who may or may not be named Jesus.
Which scumbag relayed our ultimate plan to you? No matter. Soon Jesus 1.0 profile will be unleashed upon this site to wreak havoc and destruction. Soon more will follow. Mwahahhahahaahaba

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Fiend! Blasphemy. We all know Jesus was explicitly anti-robot-clone-army, it was the last thing he said to his disciples at the Last Supper.
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I don't know how this is possible, but this thread is just as dumb as http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/ (No, I'm not saying Jesus isn't Savior. You will have to read it for yourself to understand what I mean. There is no way I can adequately describe its awesome awfulness). This is extremely close to record-breaking levels of ignorance, arrogance, and pure fabrication.
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@Castin
We all know Jesus was explicitly anti-robot-clone-army, it was the last thing he said to his disciples at the Last Supper.
Obviously, this was right after He told them that if they didn't have a sword, they needed to go out and buy a .45-cal, lever-action, fully semiautomatic machine gun AR-15 with burstfire ability and a high capacity 1234-round multi-clip magazine.


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@Lunatic
If you are insinuating I am Jesus, you are wrong.

But if you are lying and you already identify yourself as a lunatic. You would meet both qualities. Have you ever promised to come a second time and set the listeners expectation high?