Let it Go!

Author: EtrnlVw

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Imabench
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@EtrnlVw
Lol, you want me to show actual effort in a thread in the religion forum that has 1) Already gone downhill as hard as this one has, and 2) Asks people to put aside their conceptions about Christianity and scriptures to discuss the idea of God in general, with the belief that people will actually do so?

It would be a better use of my time trying to petition people to bring back the Mongol conquests of Japan.  
EtrnlVw
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@Imabench
Asks people to put aside their conceptions about Christianity and scriptures to discuss the idea of God

Exactly, if that doesn't interest you buzz off. 
EtrnlVw
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@SkepticalOne
Ok...what's the proposition?
To get into a discussion where we could argue the contents, agree or even collaborate. Mainly the proposition was in the OP. You guys are quite boring, makes one wonder why the hell yal visit such a forum. If you're not interested in discovering truths outside your own mentalities and conditioned minds I don't know what to say really. These things interest me greatly, which is why I stay open-minded to whatever is truth, whatever makes sense with the actual evidence.
Sure, I am, so long as Im not required to assume god just to have the discussion about god.
You can keep harping on that but I don't really care whether or not we start with that assumption. It was only to make things more interesting for the participants but it's not a must by any means geeze! When have you ever known me not to be willing to argue my positions?
No. That is not a fair statement. I personally think religion is unnecessary. Once we realize religion doesnt justify anything, we'll (hopefully) be able to more easily address innate human deficiencies that are often masked by it. That being said, I don't hate religion. In some places religious institutions are the community. Until a viable alternative exists, hating religion is to hate community itself in many instances.
In short, "atheists hate religion" is a trope that isn't necessarily true.
Okay I concede and apologize maybe we could move forward anyways, it's just what I observe most of the time, it's just a general attitude mainly. Perhaps hate was the wrong word to use sorry about that.
I'm interested in believing as many true things (and as few false things) as possible.
The we've reached a common grounds, excellent. This should be a great discussion.
I don't want to believe things other people dubiously hold to be true - that's a good way to end up believing in false things!
That you will never hear from me, no sir. Spirituality is all about observations, and of course application. This is your nature and origins, there's nothing that will remain unknown to you. It's just a matter of understanding how to connect with that transcendent reality, be willing to look fairly at all sides and consider. I help you to consider things by engaging in either a discussion or an argument. Spirituality has a science behind it just like the physical world. This isn't about beliefs or imagination there is an objective reality involved, if you understand the difference in the nature of it. In other words this wouldn't be about the physical sense perception.

EtrnlVw
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@SkepticalOne
To be honest, I don't know what people mean when they say "God". Sometimes, an individual's religious beliefs help narrow a definition down
Yes of course, again I'm simply moving the discussion away from religion and hopefully just to the Creator, your origins and what all this means within creation. God exists independent of human constructs, religions are just mans interpretations of what we observe outside the physical sense perception mixed in with a bunch of things. Often times I see people discouraged about Theism or God because of the mistakes and complacency of religions/religious people.
- and there is typically a lot of (legitimate) baggage that comes with this understanding. When someone wants to talk about "God" outside of a religious context, it tends to set off alarm bells for me.
Wow, I am all for religions don't you read the things I write lol? My foundation is Christianity I can argue that all day long. But there comes a time to understand that there is a dual reality even in spirituality, that's why you see the misconceptions and cruelty ect ect. I'm just trying to move beyond all that. Spirituality and religions are just a way for souls to find commonality and community.
Hardly anyone identifies as a deist, so why would so many people want to advocate deism unless they simply wanted to sanitize their beliefs to make them less objectionable?
Why don't you ask me what my beliefs are instead of assuming what they are? Let me describe it not you.
So, let's ask the burning question here - are you REALLY advocating deism... No heaven, no hell, no 'revealed' deity, no personal god?
Those things exist but that is not all that exists. Creation is a multiverse, there's more than just a heaven and a hell. Hells are just prisons, just like we have here religion just uses that to control people, they don't really have a precise understanding of what a hell is and what it isn't. God can't be impersonal, God is within all of life and awareness, how could there be no personal element? if you are personal so is the Creator. You can't be something that the Creator is not, whatever you have the Creator has and much more.
I have not denied evidence. I encourage you to re-read my words. If you can show evidence for god, I'd be very interested in it. If
We're talking about the evidence that correlates with the nature of God, spirituality, religions, NDE's, OBE's, spiritual encounters ect ect all fall under the category which indicates a proposition true. We're talking about more evidence for spirituality than any other topic.
then intellectual honesty would be admitting subjective evidence without verification is (at best) evidence for one.
It's not subjective it's objective. Only of a different nature. We loom at the evidence that identifies with Theism.

SkepticalOne
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@EtrnlVw


Proposition: (logic) a statement that affirms or denies something and is either true or false

Wanting a discussion is not a proposition, and "atheists are boring, why do they bother?" is much too angsty to be taken seriously.  If you want a discussion, I'm game so long as the pretension of belief is not required.

No. That is not a fair statement.
Okay I concede and apologize maybe we could move forward anyways, it's just what I observe most of the time, it's just a general attitude mainly. Perhaps hate was the wrong word to use sorry about that.
Thank you for that.

Spirituality is all about observations, and of course application. This is your nature and origins, there's nothing that will remain unknown to you. It's just a matter of understanding how to connect with that transcendent reality, be willing to look fairly at all sides and consider. I help you to consider things by engaging in either a discussion or an argument. Spirituality has a science behind it just like the physical world. This isn't about beliefs or imagination there is an objective reality involved, if you understand the difference in the nature of it. In other words this wouldn't be about the physical sense perception.

First thing I notice is that you mean something different than I do by "spirituality". For me, spirituality describes a hyper-awareness of some aspect of the world and the sublime feeling it spawns. A 'spiritual experience' can be derived from a hike in the mountains, wind through the hair, a moving piece of music, art that begs for attention, a child's carefree laugh, etc (triggers vary). There is nothing in my spirituality that calls for a reality beyond detection, but rather it is realized when a particular part of known reality is utterly and blissfully captivating for a moment in time. It is wonderful and ...natural.




SkepticalOne
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@EtrnlVw
Hardly anyone identifies as a deist, so why would so many people want to advocate deism unless they simply wanted to sanitize their beliefs to make them less objectionable?
Why don't you ask me what my beliefs are instead of assuming what they are? Let me describe it not you.

If someone wants to talk about god and pretend their personal religious text isn't a thing, then they are functionally advocating deism. That's not me attempting to read your mind so much as reading your words!  I would be interested in knowing your beliefs with as little ambiguity as possible though.

So, let's ask the burning question here - are you REALLY advocating deism... No heaven, no hell, no 'revealed' deity, no personal god?
God can't be impersonal, God is within all of life and awareness, how could there be no personal element? if you are personal so is the Creator. You can't be something that the Creator is not, whatever you have the Creator has and much more.
Would a deistic god be personal? No. Clearly, there are god-concepts which run contrary to your belief in a personal god. Would a tapeworm (like the human) be a lesser version of a creator too? Is the creator the *perfect* parasite? I'm not following your reasoning. 

I have not denied evidence. I encourage you to re-read my words. If you can show evidence for god, I'd be very interested in it. If
We're talking about the evidence that correlates with the nature of God, spirituality, religions, NDE's, OBE's, spiritual encounters ect ect all fall under the category which indicates a proposition true. We're talking about more evidence for spirituality than any other topic.
None of these evidences can be verified or validated by other people. That alone makes these extremely weak evidences. (crap). Pushing crap arguments together doesn't make a stronger case - it only makes a bigger pile of crap.



TheRealNihilist
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@EtrnlVw
let's get a little deeper in this topic, give me what you got, questions, arguments or ideas about God and the soul that have no relevance to the Bible.
How about starting with proving there is a creator?

I'll wait.

EtrnlVw
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@TheRealNihilist
How about starting with proving there is a creator?
I'll wait.
You're going to be waiting until your dead lol. Can't do that Omar and by now you should know some of the reasons why. If you want someone to prove there is a Creator for you start a topic. The idea with this thread is for folks to feel free to talk about the soul and God or the after life without any interference from specific religious views. Something I would assume atheists would find interesting. Maybe Janesix was right.
However, the only way I can prove anything to you, or at least give you things to consider is by discussing Theistic propositions with you until you're satisfied with the information. You guys act like babies when you demand someone prove something to you, it's like you lose all concept of what this platform is for. Debating isn't always about handing you some proof, sometimes we hash things out by DEBATING them, arguing the responses ect ect.
If there was some proof (while there is plenty of evidence) I could hand you we wouldn't even be having this talk. The evidence is about perception, looking at all the available angles and concluding (cross referencing) what it most likely true, add that with my own experiences and we have some things we can discuss. If you want to understand what the evidence is, it's an interpretation of what we see in scientific studies, the propositions of religions and testimonials which of course includes NDE's. Too much to go ever in one post so I'll let you decide if the OP interests you or not, if not sweet dreams.

Wizofoz
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@EtrnlVw
How would we know anything about God?
EtrnlVw
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@Wizofoz
How would we know anything about God?
Well part of that answer comes from where you originate, how creation is put together. Another part is just like learning about anything, how would you describe your process of learning? it wouldn't be any different from spirituality, how does a person become academically inclined? can you explain that process in detail? then apply the same thing about God, about spirituality only with different sources.... replace everything single thing you ever learned about with God as the subject instead, same exact thing.
So, what would you like to discuss? what about God would you want to know?

EtrnlVw
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@SkepticalOne
First thing I notice is that you mean something different than I do by "spirituality". For me, spirituality describes a hyper-awareness of some aspect of the world and the sublime feeling it spawns. A 'spiritual experience' can be derived from a hike in the mountains, wind through the hair, a moving piece of music, art that begs for attention, a child's carefree laugh, etc (triggers vary). There is nothing in my spirituality that calls for a reality beyond detection, but rather it is realized when a particular part of known reality is utterly and blissfully captivating for a moment in time. It is wonderful and ...natural.
That defeats the role spirituality plays, that is not spirituality, don't care who defined it that way. The purpose behind spirituality belongs to the nature of the soul and it's true origins. What you described needs not the term spirituality. That term is designated for that which is perceived outside the physical sense perception. You can find all kinds of definitions for it probably, but the one that makes sense is the one that correlates with that reality.
Admiring God's creation can be spiritual, but I'm talking about the objective reality of it, not wind in the hair lol. 

SkepticalOne
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@EtrnlVw
I understand how you mean the spirituality, but that definition requires there to be a soul. The notion of a soul is dead. (Pun intended)

Split brain individuals can have dueling beliefs such as believer and non believer. Does that mean they developed a second soul with a corpus calloscotomy? Assuming souls are created/granted at conception, what happens if one twin ends up absorbing the other in utero..does the remaining twin has two souls? What about the reverse case where one individual splits into two in utero...does this mean each twin has half a soul? How does an immaterial soul affect a material brain? How can damage to a material brain damage an immaterial soul? 

The notion of a soul raises many more questions than it could possibly answer for me. I'm fairly certain Occam's razor slices it out of a reasonable understanding of reality.


Wizofoz
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@EtrnlVw
"Well part of that answer comes from where you originate, how creation is put together."

ell. there's a physical Universe we can study- where is God in that exactly? What's he made of?

"Another part is just like learning about anything, how would you describe your process of learning?"

I evaluate evidence.

"replace everything single thing you ever learned about with God as the subject instead, same exact thing."

Gibberish.

"So, what would you like to discuss? what about God would you want to know?"

How do I confirm anything you say about God is correct?

TheRealNihilist
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@EtrnlVw
If there was some proof (while there is plenty of evidence)
Contradicts

You're going to be waiting until your dead lol. 
Do you have evidence or not?

I don't want to talk about feelings because I am not really good at setting good enough standards for them compared to evidence. 
it's an interpretation of what we see in scientific studies, the propositions of religions and testimonials which of course includes NDE's. Too much to go ever in one post so I'll let you decide if the OP interests you or not, if not sweet dreams.
Oh so you are just assuming it leads to God not there is evidence for God and here is the proof.
Since you are provide evidence tailored to God can you logically deduce it? 

267 days later

Stephen
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@EtrnlVw
I've tried this before but didn't get a good response but let's try it again.

Didn't do too well this time around either. 

Pretend the Bible doesn't exist 

But your problem is, is that the bible does exist and its teaching are read and taken on board, if not followed to the letter  by millions of Christians. This is nothing new. The ancients used to do exactly the same thing as Christians do today: swoon and kneel and submit and pray to something that isn't there. 
EtrnlVw
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@Stephen
Didn't do too well this time around either.

For thought experiments I'm not particularly worried about it.

But your problem is, is that the bible does exist and its teaching are read and taken on board, if not followed to the letter  by millions of Christians. This is nothing new. The ancients used to do exactly the same thing as Christians do today: swoon and kneel and submit and pray to something that isn't there.

And none of that is relevant here which is why I said below.....

 "The reason for this would be so that you can concoct questions and ideas about God without the judgement of the Bible in the way. Believe it or not the Creator exists with or without the Bible, in other words the Bible doesn't dictate anything.
If it's something that annoys you and you can't get over the mistakes within it then all is not lost, the Creator still exists and so is the nature of your being to understand that reality. Forget about it for just this moment, let the influence of Christianity go...let's get a little deeper in this topic.
I want to do this because often times the Bible get's in the way of what could be great inquiries and discussions, we spend far too much time debating errors in that literature. Far too much wasted time in religious forums all over the internet with the wrong understanding and misconceptions because of what religion has done in the name of "God"
You, as an individual soul still have an origin and a purpose within creation
But again, this is not about religion or the Bible and I am not pressed to push that on you."

Let me know if you actually want to participate this time.

BrotherDThomas
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@EtrnlVw



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EtrnlVw,

It is so uplifting to see you try and be back on DEBATEART Religion forum, praise!  Jesus and I have a lot in store for you and your biblical ignorance, stay tuned!

Oh, just an update, in your timely departure from this forum for obvious reasons of calling Jesus a LIAR as I had easily shown, have you called Him a LIAR again upon your absence from DEBATEART Religion forum?   I know, once was enough to exclude you from ever going to heaven because you know what you're guilty of, don't you!  



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