Evolution

Topic's posts
Posts in total: 38
I think that if atheists really took a look at Darwinian evolution, they would see that it makes no sense, there is no proof of it,and that everything points to a creator. 

Just sayin".

I don't think you've really thought about it if you are a Darwinian.
By all means, please elaborate. In my view, and for no reason at all but humoring the discussion, I will ignore the reams and reams of scientific support this theory has, it's an exceptionally simple concept: living things must adapt to the environment around them in order to reproduce. What is it about that that doesn't make sense? How does EVERYTHING point to a creator? If that's the case, then why hasn't it been confirmed? Jane, you have to think about this: humans have been trying to prove there's a specific creator for literally thousands and thousands of years, to no avail. Evolution (not sure why you're adding "Darwinian", it is superfluous) has been scientifically accepted as correct for less than two centuries, and has an entire apparatus associated with religion trying to prove it wrong, again, to no avail. 

I don't know what you object to in the theory, but I don't think by any means that you have actually studied it. Does it make you uncomfortable in some way? 
--> @ludofl3x
 Evolution (not sure why you're adding "Darwinian"
Darwinians are those who believe in the modern synthesis. 

I believe in orthogenesis, which is the reason I made the distinction. I don't believe things "evolve" . They just change from one thing to another. In a specific and predetermined direction


--> @janesix
Explain then how I can see the same "predetermined direction" you do, like what's your evidence for this "aim point." Because to me, evolution and changing over time are the same thing. A predetermined direction should be pretty plain, and also able to explain why that direction includes 300K species of beetles, for example, and innumerable bacteria and viruses. 
--> @ludofl3x
Convergence shows it plainly. There are marsupial dogs, moles, sabre tooth "cats", flying squirrels etc. To me, that didn't happen by accident. 
--> @ludofl3x
By all means, please elaborate. In my view, and for no reason at all but humoring the discussion, I will ignore the reams and reams of scientific support this theory has

It's not really the observations of science that are wrong, it's the theories they assume.
This is where things get fuzzy, you see on one hand the Creator uses processes to evolve forms to where we see them today. The Creator doesn't poof things into existence there is a plan, process to get from point A to point B.
We can observe processes that fit in with intelligence in what they produce, we know processes don't occur without a mind or thought behind it (intelligence)....On the other hand the assumption that these processes are purely materialistic in nature is where the misconception lies. While evolution and Theism are completely compatible it's the nature of the origins is where some get confused, or more than confused it becomes a part of their mentality and beliefs/worldview unfortunately. This of course limits what they can experience.

--> @janesix
To me, that didn't happen by accident. 

What's your support for this opinion? I think a lot of people get caught up thinking "natural selection" is the same as "random chance", it isn't. Why couldn't a flying squirrel be an accident? Would it seem less mysterious if it didn't have the name "squirrel" and instead was something else? Your point about marsupials is interesting: what's the orthgenic reason for Australia having so many animals that are ONLY found there?
--> @EtrnlVw
Science doesn't assume theories: science makes observations then FORMS theories based thereon. When those theories stand up to testing, they are deemed viable scientific theories. Unlike, say, your version of a creator, who is essentially as you describe them the god of the gaps. Please demonstrate the supernatural intelligence, mind or thought behind the evolution of dogs from wolves. Your post is as usual a lot of bunk. 
--> @janesix
The 'predetermined direction' you speak of ignores the vast array of 'failed alternatives' that died out or had their children die out.

You say the sabre tooth was no mistake but the sabretooth itself was one example of a failed species... So?
--> @EtrnlVw
This is where things get fuzzy, you see on one hand the Creator uses processes to evolve forms to where we see them today. The Creator doesn't poof things into existence there is a plan, process to get from point A to point B. 

Nonsense. The creator does poof things into existence or it would have had absolutely nothing to work with to make the processes occur to begin with. The creator itself poofed into existence, after all.
--> @RationalMadman
Nonsense. The creator does poof things into existence or it would have had absolutely nothing to work with to make the processes occur to begin with. The creator itself poofed into existence, after all.
Not at all, consciousness never poofed into existence, awareness has never not existed, it comes before matter and is eternal by nature. Energy exists because first awareness exists, in return energy is manipulated to create form within creation everything from planets, stars, solar systems, galaxies all the way down to minute life form, the structuring of matter to create the forms you see around you...hence evolution, what we observe through science.
So what the Creator works with is energy, and we know that is a fact with what we observe through science. Energy is not created or destroyed, so is the nature of God.

--> @EtrnlVw
Oh I see, so energy just poofed into existence, God just poofed into existence, energy magically turns into matter when it suits your agenda and everything just 'works' because it suits your outlook. I see.

Remind me again, why is it that God can't poof things into existence but can only 'work with' them? Wouldn't working with the processes available include creation and destruction via energy transfer? Even if God only has energy available, if your hypothesis is that God can transform energy into matter and even consciousness, then God can indeed poof matter and consciousness into and out of existence as he/she/it pleases.

--> @janesix
Darwinians are those who believe in the modern synthesis. 
Then Darwin is not a Darwinian!

I'd say darwinism is really the belief that natural selection is the primary driver of adaptive change.  Loads of people had suggested evolution happens before darwin... Lamarck for one, a generation before.   Darwin's big idea was natural selection, not evolution per se.   
--> @EtrnlVw
You have precisely zero evidence for any of that,
--> @keithprosser
I am only making a distinction between those who think evolution is a fully natural process,and those who think it is directed by a higher power ie God.
--> @janesix
I await your reply to this post:


--> @RationalMadman
Oh I see, so energy just poofed into existence, God just poofed into existence, energy magically turns into matter when it suits your agenda and everything just 'works' because it suits your outlook. I see.
Wow, you read as good as Disgusted.
Suits my agenda? that's funny. So....no matter my proposition, no matter how I use the evidence to conclude what is true it's an agenda? you're a joke.
Remind me again, why is it that God can't poof things into existence but can only 'work with' them? Wouldn't working with the processes available include creation and destruction via energy transfer? Even if God only has energy available, if your hypothesis is that God can transform energy into matter and even consciousness, then God can indeed poof matter and consciousness into and out of existence as he/she/it pleases.
Again, first learn how to read what I say the first time. Consciousness has always existed, this is the most basic concept of God how have you not considered it already? consciousness comes before matter, meaning awareness has always been, it's ETERNAL....Energy is present with conscious activity, which is why it exists at all. In other words awareness (consciousness) and energy co-exist. Awareness cannot be destroyed and so neither can energy be.
Poofing things into existence?? now you're going into the absurd.

If you pay attention to quantum mechanics you would know that energy does create form, it's this manipulation of energy that is the processes of the Creator....evolution of forms and embodiments. Consciousness itself in the God state has no form, It's awareness permeates all of creation.
If you want to know how energy creates form I can send you a link. However I don't really prefer discussing anything with you because you act like a punk, you need to grow up a bit young man.

agree
--> @RationalMadman
I don't think there are any "failed species". 
--> @janesix
You named one. Sabre-tooths.
--> @RationalMadman
How do you know it didn't serve it's purpose?
--> @EtrnlVw
You call me a joke in defence of me saying you have an agenda... Nice defence?

Consciousness has always existed, this is the most basic concept of God how have you not considered it already?

If you say that consciousness has always existed, you concede that if something exists it in no way at all necessitates a creator. This then extends to the very reason you say God is in any way necessary and real; it isn't, we don't need a creator under your logical framework.

Consciousness comes before matter, meaning awareness has always been, it's ETERNAL
If this is true, it in no way at all explains what came before consciousness or where matter came from. You say your God doesn't 'poof' things into existence ever, so then how did matter originate and why can't matter, like God and consciousness under your logical framework, itself have always existed?

Energy is present with conscious activity, which is why it exists at all.
Energy is present with a plethora of unconscious, inanimate activity too, like wind eroding rocks, the production of electricity and many other things. Energy transfer in the brain and body of conscious beings is an extremely tiny percentage of the overall energy transfer on Earth as we know it, let alone the rest of reality.

You say that the reason why energy exists is that it's present with conscious activity but that in no way at all is a reason for it to exist, just an interaction and codependency it has while existing.

The complete lapse in your hypothesis to conclusion here is that you forgot that your God can't 'poof' things into existence ever, correct? So where did energy come from?

In other words awareness (consciousness) and energy co-exist.
The discussion being had is whether a God that never creates things, but only alters processes can exist in any shape or form that doesn't logically contradict the reality in which you're saying the God operates and controls things. We are not discussing whether consciousness and energy co-exist; everyone knows that they do.

Awareness cannot be destroyed and so neither can energy be. 
Awareness can always be destroyed, right now you're paying attention to the screen in front of you, are you aware of that very quiet background noise? How about the feeling of your clothes on your skin? I doubt you were aware of those things, it would be a waste of your brain's energy to be aware of them while focusing on the screen, for starters. What is a person in a coma then? Awareness can be destroyed and regularly is, especially before you were born and after you die even if you're reborn.

Energy is transferred only as far as we know it and in our area of reality. For all we know in other realities energy is regularly created and destroyed, not just transferred. In no way at all is this some kind of absolute rule or way of understanding the God that happened to decide that energy should have a set amount. Also us, as humans, have never ever been able to actually prove this theory true it's simply that as far as our means of producing electricity, compounds etc all require energy transfer and not any destruction of it or creation of it.

Poofing things into existence?? now you're going into the absurd.
If poofing things into existence is absurd, why is it not absurd to think that there is a god and that things didn't just exist and transfer from the beginning of time with no organiser or creator? You speak of absurdity readily when discussing other versions of God and religious outlooks but when discussing your own, you forget the absurdity.

If you pay attention to quantum mechanics you would know that energy does create form, it's this manipulation of energy that is the processes of the Creator
If you pay attention to quantum mechanics you'd know that there is antimatter that interacts continually with particles to create and destroy what is and is not at any given moment in time. You'd also know that there in no shape or form is a creator or organiser necessitated for the very seemingly random system to work.

Consciousness itself in the God state has no form, It's awareness permeates all of creation.
You just said it has no form, then you said it permeates all of creation, which would require it to have form that does so and operates via that mechanism.

If you want to know how energy creates form I can send you a link.
I want to know how a God that never poofs anything into existence based on you calling it absurd (and it seems, never destroys anything either) is in any way itself able to be poofed into existence along with consciousness and energy.

However I don't really prefer discussing anything with you because you act like a punk, you need to grow up a bit young man.
You are violating the site's code of conduct here, please discontinue.
--> @janesix
If there is a purpose to failed species (or breeds within species), you concede that their purpose was to be out-competed and die off in relation to the thriving and/or surviving ones. This in no way at all implies organised design, but random variation playing out its odds over time.
--> @RationalMadman
It could imply that. An advance of consciousness.
--> @RationalMadman
You call me a joke in defence of me saying you have an agenda... Nice defence?
Correct, if you have any idea what this agenda is let me know. What agenda do you have? Don't project on me, you're the one that likes to start shyt.
If you say that consciousness has always existed, you concede that if something exists it in no way at all necessitates a creator. This then extends to the very reason you say God is in any way necessary and real; it isn't, we don't need a creator under your logical framework.
That's ridiculous, the framework starts with an intelligent Reality (awareness/consciousness). Everything comes out of the Creator, It's the first Source. That, should have been obvious in the little we've discussed.
If this is true, it in no way at all explains what came before consciousness or where matter came from. You say your God doesn't 'poof' things into existence ever, so then how did matter originate and why can't matter, like God and consciousness under your logical framework, itself have always existed?
You can't explain what came before consciousness, you're missing the point....that's as far back to the wall as we can ever go. Nothing creates awareness, awareness meaning that which has always been conscious independent of the beginning of this universe, there is no starting point to that, do you know what eternal means?
Close your eyes and meditate on your observation point, quiet the mind down and relax chasing thought. Notice your awareness has no perceived space around it, now imagine you have no body....this pure awareness that is your observation point is without form. It doesn't have any walls to bump into, corners to reach or dead ends. That is what God is, pure awareness with no form....much like the nature of energy and electricity.
As I've said...matter is the isolation of energy, energy comes before matter. Perhaps find a video on quantum mechanics for dummies.
Energy is present with a plethora of unconscious, inanimate activity too, like wind eroding rocks, the production of electricity and many other things.
Exactly, energy pervades all of creation, just like awareness. Remember I said they co-exist. You can't have energy without conscious activity. The conscious activity of God creates energy, it's just a by-product of that generation of awareness. Awareness exists at all levels, this incudes everything that is living, or even perceived as non-living. If energy is present, no matter the form, awareness is also present.
Energy transfer in the brain and body of conscious beings is an extremely tiny percentage of the overall energy transfer on Earth as we know it, let alone the rest of reality.
You are already an energetic being separate from the material body. You are what powers the body, you are that power supply. This energy is transferred to the human body because you developed with it, like a cage you are experiencing both the nervous system and the physical perceptions of the brain. But, your awareness (soul) is not limited to the physical body, it can perceive outside of that.
You say that the reason why energy exists is that it's present with conscious activity but that in no way at all is a reason for it to exist, just an interaction and codependency it has while existing.
No, the very activity of conscious awareness...generates energy...come on man this very simple. In essence they co-exist.
The complete lapse in your hypothesis to conclusion here is that you forgot that your God can't 'poof' things into existence ever, correct? So where did energy come from?
Already explained. There never was any poof into existence, these are your own terminologies. Energy is not poofed into existence, matter is the isolation of energy through processes. No poofing required.