The Inherent Superiority of Answering "I don't know"

Author: Discipulus_Didicit

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Imagine a conversation from ancient times...

Alex: Huh, ever notice how wood floats?

Beth: Yep. Sure did notice that.

Alex: You ever wonder why it floats though?

Beth: God done do it.

Alex: Yeah I guess you are right. Why did he make it like that though?

Beth: Oh, uhh... I don't know. Wait, I got it! He made it like that so we could build structures from wood to help us cross water!

*Wooden ships invented*

Many years later...

Charlie: These wooden ships are nice and all but I would like something a bit harder like rock or metal. That would be nice.

Daisy: Yeah but rocks and metal don't float, stupid. God done only made wood float.

Charlie: yeah you are right.

Meanwhile on the other side of the world...

Edward: These wooden ships are nice and all but I would like something a bit harder like rock or metal. That would be nice.

Fred: Yeah but rocks and metal don't float, stupid. God done only made wood float.

Edward: I'm not convinced. There has to be more to it than that. I'm going to look into this further.

Fred: You are just wasting your time. The answer is god done do it. Quit yer yammering and help me build this ship.

Edward: Well I have some experiments here showing that the reason wood floats is because it is less dense. I knew there was more to it!

Fred: God done did it less dense so it could float so we could make ships. No need to look further.

Edward: I wonder why less dense things float though. What causes that to happen?

Fred: God done causes it to happen so that we can make ships. Stop questioning things.

Edward: But I have some new experiments that show that the reason less dense objects float is because the water pressure exerted on an object is affected by volume and the gravitational forces exerted on an object is affected by mass. Therefore due to the relationship between mass, volume, and density the water pressure exerted on less dense objects overcomes the gravitational forces. That is what causes wood to float! What a remarkable discovery!

*Buoyancy discovered*

Fred: I don't understand all yer fancy talk but really it ain't all that impressive. God done planned this buoyancy thing from the get-go so that wood could float so that we could make wooden ships. What a waste of time. How does knowing about this buoyancy thing help us?

Edward: That does make sense. Maybe I should just give up.

Fred: Of course it makes sense. God wants wooden ships. How he makes the wood float don't matter none.

Edward: Wait, I just had a thought! If we were to make a ship from steel that had enough empty space inside it to reduce the effective density to less than that of water then we could have a ship made of steel! This is going to change everything!

Fred: Uhh steel don't float, dummy. Steel sinks. Remember that steel nail I dropped in the water and hour ago? It sunk. Don't matter why it sunk, God just done made it so that steel sinks.

Edward: But it all makes sense now. The reason things float is because of their density, the reason less dense things float is because of buoyancy, we can make buoyancy work to make a steel ship float!

*Steel ships invented*

Fred: I don't understand any of that jibber jabber but I tell you what, if you can make a steel ship float it's because god gone did whatever density-buoyancy hocus-pocus just for us so that we can make steel ships. You should just leave it at that. All yer investigatin' and experimentin' and what has it gotten us? Nothin'.

Edward was able to invent something new because when he had a question for which he did not know the answer he said "I don't know, let's find out." as opposed to Alex, Beth, Charlie, Daisy, and Fred who all responded to unknowns by saying "God". Even when there was no obvious immediate practical application to the investigation continuing on led to positive practical results. 
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@Discipulus_Didicit
BUT WHAT CREATED THE WOOD, THE ROCKS, THE PEOPLE, AND THE PERSON TELLING US THIS STORY?
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@PressF4Respect
I don't know.

Let's find out =)
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Yeet

I love Scientolo... I mean science!
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@PressF4Respect
BUT WHAT CREATED THE CREATOR?
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   / \
  /👁\
/____\

18 days later

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--> @Discipulus_Didicit
--> @PressF4Respect

This is an interesting treatise on why claiming some creator being doesn't so much solve mysteries like why are we here and how did the universe come about as simply appealing to a greater mystery. Whether such a being existed or not faith has observably less efficacy informing our understanding than science has shown.
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@secularmerlin
Thanks. The practical positive effects of asking questions and seeking the answers is an incredibly simple concept I admit, but sometimes presenting simple concepts in more detailed ways gets people that might at first disagree to actually think about it for themselves rather than just dismissing it out of hand as a knee-jerk reaction. As an example it is often rightly point out that the internet and related technologies would not exist if not for scientists and engineers making an effort to understand, for instance, how electrons work. The knee-jerk reaction (parodied by F4 in post 2 of this thread) is usually to just say "but goddid the 'lectrons" without actually thinking about it the implications of what the former speaker is trying to say. By taking a point and slowing the explanation down I hope to force the reader to think for themselves by not triggering such knee-jerks. The difficult part is in balancing it so that the OP does not become needlessly verbose.

I remember I took this approach a few times on DDO, most notably regarding the anthropic principle (though naturally I did not use that term). Perhaps I will dig through the old DDO archives and repost some of those here.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Cool story. A theist can also make a story like yours because it is an anecdote so...
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@TheRealNihilist
One that leads to the conclusion that uncritically accepting unverified answers to questions produces superior practical results to seeking the actual answers without making the unjustified assumption that said unverified answers happen to be true?

I look forward to reading such a story.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
One that leads to the conclusion that uncritically accepting unverified answers to questions produces superior practical results to seeking the actual answers without making the unjustified assumption that said unverified answers happen to be true?
Tell me are you a scientist researching said thing or are you simply parroting from a qualified scientist?



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@TheRealNihilist
Are you a scientist researching said thing or are you simply parroting from a qualified scientist?

It is quite obvious that I am neither of these things. It is quite obvious that I am merely a guy making a philosophical point.

Still, tell me your story. I will listen.
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@Discipulus_Didicit
Your point doesn't even help your case. You look to others when you need evidence just like thiests. 

My story,
What is consciousness?
Sam: I don't know. Not really bothered by the answer.
Jack: I don't know either but I am dedicated into finding out what it is.  

20 years later

Sam is happy doing what she likes not spending time on things she can't answer whereas Jack spent most of his time trying to find an answer to the detriment to his hapiness. 

The story is really short but it highlights I can also make anecdotes. One that makes theists look better. Don't ponder things you can't understand. Live with not knowing or you will spend time on things without a sufficient answer. Sam can be a theist but I didn't really make that clear. Mainly because I used her to state what most people would do about the question. Move on.

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@TheRealNihilist
Your point doesn't even help your case.

What is my case?
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@Discipulus_Didicit
What is my case?

Edward was able to invent something new because when he had a question for which he did not know the answer
In this case Jack didn't invent anything new instead found nothing and was unhappy during that time.

Your other case was the philosophical point you made which wasn't even all that good given the same argument can be levied back at you. 
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@Discipulus_Didicit
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There exists no cosmic source { @ } only cosmic ignorance. { * ??? * }


..."These Swirls of Light Could Be Signs of a Previous Universe Existing Before Ours"...

.."If our Universe happened to be locked in an eternal heartbeat of expansion and collapse, black holes would leave an impression. And it could look just like a number of swirls recently detected in the faint echo of light at the edge of space."......


...."Buddhism has no creator god to explain the origin of the universe. Instead, it teaches that everything depends on everything else: present events are caused by past events and become the cause of future events.
Indian religions often see space and time as cyclical, such that world-systems come into being, survive for a time, are destroyed and then are remade. In Buddhism this happens naturally without the intervention of gods."...

Heavenly This Dance, That Swirls Around,  *)(*...^v^v...*)(*

Inward and Outward, Finite the Bounds. >>>(<  *)(*  >)<<<<

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@Discipulus_Didicit
I would love to talk about that thing. I can not talk about because of our bet.



But someone brought to my attention something Similar



How do you counter this:

  • Rain will fall from clouds
  • Plants need rain to live
Therefore Zeus made it so plants could drink rain. 

It is true if water did no turn into gas and have the ability to clump up into clouds.No life could exist because we would not have rain.

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@crossed
I would love to talk about that thing. I can not talk about because of our bet.

You mean the fact that water expands when it freezes? You can talk about anything you want to talk about so long as you acknowledge that it has been shown to be - by your own standard - not a logical reason for believing in god.

As for your example here I have my own reasons for thinking that the existence of rain and clouds is not a good reason to believe that Zeus exists and I will gladly explain them to you. First however, do you think this is sufficient reason to believe that Zeus exists? Why or why not?
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I am saying that there are hundreds of thousands of practical applications for various real inventions that came about as a result of trying to learn about the world. Do you deny this?

There are those that are content to let the mysteries of the universe remain mysteries. I have met many of them. I doubt they are in the majority though, if they were then we would still be a hunter-gathering species.
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Edward: But I have some new experiments that show that the reason less dense objects float is because the water pressure exerted on an object is affected by volume and the gravitational forces exerted on an object is affected by mass. Therefore due to the relationship between mass, volume, and density the water pressure exerted on less dense objects overcomes the gravitational forces. That is what causes wood to float! What a remarkable discovery!
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You seem to think that the process's that science have discovered on how the universe works disproves god. Which it does not.. Telling me the complex manner in which gas turns into a solid or liquid does not disprove god it only promotes it since it is so advance. Telling me how how advance atoms are does not disprove god made them. it in Facts prove that he created the because it is so advance. Telling me how my heart and brain work. does not disprove god created them it only promotes it. Because they are so advance. Telling me how advance DNA is is not going to disprove god made it is only going to promote god made them since it is so advance.

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  I said if clouds did not exist life could not exist and claimed god created clouds and water with there properties so plants can drink. Telling me the complex formula in which water turns into gas is not going to disprove it. Because i believe this advance method was his way of doing it.


I am saying that there are hundreds of thousands of practical applications for various real inventions that came about as a result of trying to learn about the world. Do you deny this?

I do not deny man creates things.Gods are just so much better


computer vs brain which is more advance. The brain by miles

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@crossed
You seem to think that the process's that science have discovered on how the universe works disproves god.

I do not think this at all, I have never said this at all, and I think that anyone who does think this is stupid. Since your post relies on me thinking this and I don't, your post is in error.
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I said if clouds did not exist life could not exist and claimed god created clouds and water with there properties so plants can drink. Telling me the complex formula in which water turns into gas is not going to disprove it.

I have not referred to any complex formulas in this thread whatsoever. You posted a quote claiming to prove that Zeus exists and you asked me to respond to it. I told you that I would give my response to it and explain why I think it does not prove that Zeus exists after you give your response explaining why you think it does not prove that Zeus exists. I already have my response ready and I promise that it will not involve any complex formulas, but I would like to hear yours first. Why do you think the water cycle providing water to plants is insufficient to prove that Zeus exists?
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I am saying that there are hundreds of thousands of practical applications for various real inventions that came about as a result of trying to learn about the world. Do you deny this?
This is different to the claim that one that leads to not analyzing answer.
One that leads to the conclusion that uncritically accepting unverified answers to questions produces superior practical results to seeking the actual answers without making the unjustified assumption that said unverified answers happen to be true?
Remember? Your just making another point where there doesn't need to be one. Instead of defending your original point which calls out people who analyse you then make another statement about pragmatism. Do explain yourself.
There are those that are content to let the mysteries of the universe remain mysteries. I have met many of them. I doubt they are in the majority though, if they were then we would still be a hunter-gathering species.
Like you said we would be regressive with "we would still be a hunter-gathering species". Don't know how this is relevant so I'll leave it at that. 
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@Discipulus_Didicit
You know i was not talking about zeus when i posted that.Don't take stuff to literally.The reason why i said this.
Is because that it where most of the science disprove's religion come's from

Telling me the complex manner in which gas turns into a solid or liquid does not disprove god. It only promotes it since it is so advance. Telling me how how advance atoms are. Does not disprove god made them. it in Facts prove that he created them because it is so advance. Telling me how my heart and brain work. does not disprove god created them. It only promotes it. Because they are so advance. Telling me how advance DNA is is not going to disprove god made it. It is only going to promote god made them. Since it is so advance.

Sorry for procrasinating

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@crossed
Sorry for procrasinating

Devoting less than 100% of your time to some website on the internet is not something anyone should apologise for.

Still, I notice you have not responded to the Zeus quote you gave me. You point out that you disagree that it is good evidence for Zeus, which I already knew, but you do not explain why you think this. As I said I will explain my reasoning after you tell me yours because I am genuinely curious as to what yours is. I genuinely want to hear your take.

Edit: I also think it would be helpful to compare and contrast our reasons for disagreeing with the Zeus quote since we both know that we both disagree with it but likely have different reasons for why. Examining the actual reasoning will be quite helpful I think.

51 days later

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@Discipulus_Didicit
most notably regarding the anthropic principle (though naturally I did not use that term).
My mother always said neccessity was the mother of invention aka creation.

The thing about creation is, that something  ---occupied space eternally exists--- has always been here so there was never a need to create the source of all creations.

So the ultimate finality of the anthropic ideas is, what is the point of the existence of something {Unierse } if there is no mind-accessing creatures around to observing-ly interact with it? To appreciate it. To create and shape various somethings unknown or needed to them.


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what is the point of the existence of something {Unierse }
The point for mind accessing creatures is far beyond what humans have discovered in 13 million years on Earth, and,

who knows how much further before all of the points will ever be considered?

However, it may be that ..' a point a day keeps the doctor away '.....

Think about. Mind exists to solve problems. To discover the points and make connections between them all.


If your bored, then why? So many ore points to go.