The Emperors New UBI?

Author: ethang5

Posts

Total: 73
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
UBI = Universal Basic Income.
(Everyone gets an income regardless of whether they work or not.)

Is it me, or is watching people advocate for UBI like watching retarded half-wits advocating for a perpetual motion machine?

I watch westerns, and though the cowboy simply looped the reins of his horse once over a horizontal pole, the horse NEVER figured out how to free himself, even after looking directly at the single looped line.

The UBI idea is so stupid, I'm wondering if everyone is in on a joke I'm missing. How can people who went to school believe UBI is anything other than abject nonsense?
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
I would agree that most UBI proposals are abject nonsense, though we probably disagree about the reasoning.
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
What's your reasoning? And do you have a theory for why so many otherwise smart people think it is viable?
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,242
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@ethang5
USL = Universal Standard of Living




ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@ebuc
Wouldn't the USL be the same thing as the UBI?

If so, how do people who advocate it say it would be paid for? Any idea?

ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,242
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@ethang5
Wouldn't the USL be the same thing as the UBI?
No an dnot sure why you would think they are.

If so, how do people who advocate it say it would be paid for? Any idea?


USE = Universal Standard of Economics.

We have no Universal Stand of Economics, and that is because we have because, we have 195 nations ergo we do not have a unified Earth and unifying common sense of moral { spiritual } standards.

All economic standards, if not stemmed from a moral { spiritual } base, will have not long term validity or sustainability.

All economics stem from heart, not the other way around.  1} Heart > 2} standards of living >3} economics.

#3 is best attained via 1 and 2.


ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@ebuc
We have no Universal Stand of Economics
OK. But you brought it up.

I take it you don't know what the UBI is?

DynamicSquid
DynamicSquid's avatar
Debates: 29
Posts: 182
1
3
11
DynamicSquid's avatar
DynamicSquid
1
3
11
-->
@ethang5
@Discipulus_Didicit
UBI is stupid?

1) Check out my current debate with Swagnarok on UBI
2) Wanna start a debate on it?
3) Let's argue it right here if you want

DynamicSquid
DynamicSquid's avatar
Debates: 29
Posts: 182
1
3
11
DynamicSquid's avatar
DynamicSquid
1
3
11
-->
@ebuc
All economics stem from heart
Wdym by "heart"?
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@ethang5
What's your reasoning?

From an economic point of view I think it costs too damn much if the monetary amount is set anywhere near high enough to achieve the desired effect (that most often being described as enough to cover bare minimum cost of living). The govt spending that much money will require either enormous cutbacks in spending or a huge spike in deficit/debt, all for something that will contribute next to nothing to the economy. I am not a trained economist so I consider this to be the weaker of my two main objections.

From a moral point of view I don't like the idea of taking taxpayer money and distributing that it in such a way that said taxpayer has no idea how their money if being spent. This is an objection I have to certain other government programs too, not just UBI. I could go on for a long time on why I hold this position but for the sake of a shorter post I will not do so.

You probably agree with these two points but where I assume (possibly incorrectly) that we would disagree based on what few posts I have seen of yours on the forum and the fact that you identify as a conservative on your profile is that you probably (again I might be wrong) subscribe to the belief that implementing a UBI would encourage people capable of working to instead not do so and simply live off their new monthly government check. This is a common objection I have heard to UBI and quite honestly I find this objection even more laughable than the idea of UBI itself given the amounts involved in most UBI proposals and my experience in successfully fighting my way out of poverty over the last decade or so. Again I do not know for sure that you hold this view, maybe you don't, but it does seem like a common one.

And do you have a theory for why so many otherwise smart people think it is viable?

I have not looked closely enough at the arguments in favor of UBI to have an opinion on this. I doubt it is as simple as 'they are all just stupid/lazy' though.
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@DynamicSquid
1) Check out my current debate with Swagnarok on UBI

I certainly will after I get off work.

2) Wanna start a debate on it?
3) Let's argue it right here if you want

Not enough time right now. Remind me in a few months.
DynamicSquid
DynamicSquid's avatar
Debates: 29
Posts: 182
1
3
11
DynamicSquid's avatar
DynamicSquid
1
3
11
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
Remind me in a few months.
A little long. Could we perhaps squeeze it before Winter break? Or I guess we could do it after if you really want to...
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,242
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@ethang5
I take it you don't know what the UBI is?
Your opening statements were exactly UBI and I quoted them in my response.

Universal Standard of Living is the real issue and it stems from heart/soul/biologic desires for what each of us want for ourselves.

Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.


ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@ebuc
I said nothing about a Universal Standard of Living or USL.

The UBI (i not L) is short for Universal Basic Income.

I think you've misunderstood my post. But thanks for the reply anyway.
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@DynamicSquid
Let's argue it right here if you want
Sure. 

So, I'm I correct you think the UBI is a sound, logical, and viable, idea?
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
Your reasoning was solid, but you still didn't touch my main reason for thinking the idea is ludicrous. 

As far as the pulling yourself out of poverty issue, you are as rare as they come. It is a human tendency to think you are typical, that other people are just like me, they would have done the same.

In this case, I don't think you are. Most people would not have behaved like you did under the same circumstances.

But your answer was logical and well thought out. Thanks.
ebuc
ebuc's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 4,242
3
2
4
ebuc's avatar
ebuc
3
2
4
-->
@ethang5
I said nothing about a Universal Standard of Living or USL. The UBI (i not L) is short for Universal Basic Income.
I think you've misunderstood my post. But thanks for the reply anyway.
Ive been very clear and not misunderstood any of your comments.

UBI is irrelevant.

Universal Standard of living is relevant { UBL }

That  your not able to make the distincion between the two, nor to see how UBIincome economics is irrelevant to standard of living.

UBIncome does not stem from heart/soul/biologic.

UNLiving does stem from heart/soul/bioloigc as spiritual moralty.

Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.   That you dont get that or any morality is not surprise to me.


WaterPhoenix
WaterPhoenix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,094
3
3
10
WaterPhoenix's avatar
WaterPhoenix
3
3
10
UBI is actual trash
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@WaterPhoenix
Thank you WP! Why can't people see that?
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@ebuc

Ive been very clear and not misunderstood any of your comments.
And yet you keep talking about something I didn't mention?

UBI is irrelevant.
Not to the creator of this thread it isn't.

Universal Standard of living is relevant { UBL }
Relevant to what? Why don't you make your own thread about it instead of trying to force this thread to your preferred topic?

That  your not able to make the distincion between the two,
I can. But I choose my topics, not you. I was the one who told you they were not the same. I made the distinction.

...nor to see how UBI income economics is irrelevant to standard of living.
I've said nothing about standards of living, so I have no clue how you would know what I think is relevant to it.

UBIncome does not stem from heart/soul/biologic.
Irrelevant to this thread.

UNLiving does stem from heart/soul/bioloigc as spiritual moralty.
Irrelevant to this thread. Whatever UNliving is to you.

Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.
??

That you dont get that or any morality is not surprise to me.
I get it. It just is irrelevant here. I don't have to comment on every silly statement you make.

The thread has a topic. Address that, or make your own thread.
WaterPhoenix
WaterPhoenix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,094
3
3
10
WaterPhoenix's avatar
WaterPhoenix
3
3
10
-->
@ethang5
Dunno, it's just giving poor people an excuse to do a whole bunch of nothing all day, and objecting is somehow discrimination.

ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
-->
@WaterPhoenix
This is what Discipulus_Didicit said in post #10 about your concern that the UBI would be "giving poor people an excuse to do a whole bunch of nothing all day."

you probably (again I might be wrong) subscribe to the belief that implementing a UBI would encourage people capable of working to instead not do so and simply live off their new monthly government check. This is a common objection I have heard to UBI and quite honestly I find this objection even more laughable than the idea of UBI itself given the amounts involved in most UBI proposals and my experience in successfully fighting my way out of poverty over the last decade or so. 
Do you think he has a point?
WaterPhoenix
WaterPhoenix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,094
3
3
10
WaterPhoenix's avatar
WaterPhoenix
3
3
10
-->
@ethang5
No, I'll bet he fought his way out of poverty when Obama came along and gave out food stamps to everyone. Along with lower rent and almost no taxes, the poor really don't need to do anything.

Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@DynamicSquid
A little long. Could we perhaps squeeze it before Winter break?

IDK when winter break is, never bothered with college and high school was six years ago, but I will be busy with a lot of overtime at work until the end of December and plan on shopping around for a house after tax season so a few months is the best I can do for anything that might take more than 10-15 minutes a day.
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@WaterPhoenix
No, I'll bet he fought his way out of poverty when Obama came along and gave out food stamps to everyone. Along with lower rent and almost no taxes, the poor really don't need to do anything.

I have never been on food stamps or any kind of government assistance, though I probably could have until about six months ago. What is the cut-off? 14k a year? 15k? never bothered to look into it.

Between actual on-the-book employment and unofficial side jobs I have been working well over 40 hours a week on average for every week of my adult life so you can feel free to go fuck yourself.
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@ethang5
Your reasoning was solid, but you still didn't touch my main reason for thinking the idea is ludicrous.

If it is something I have not mentioned I would be curious to hear it.
WaterPhoenix
WaterPhoenix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,094
3
3
10
WaterPhoenix's avatar
WaterPhoenix
3
3
10
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
Ok, well I'm sorry. We were on the topic and the timeline lined up, I didn't mean to say you were lazy or anything.
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@WaterPhoenix
You can make it up to me by buying a copy of my autobiography when it comes out. I plan on calling it Trailer Trash to Landlord in Ten Years Flat, Sucky Big Fat Hairy Balls Society!

Coming to a bookstore near you in July 2090.
WaterPhoenix
WaterPhoenix's avatar
Debates: 12
Posts: 2,094
3
3
10
WaterPhoenix's avatar
WaterPhoenix
3
3
10
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
I should still be alive then.
DynamicSquid
DynamicSquid's avatar
Debates: 29
Posts: 182
1
3
11
DynamicSquid's avatar
DynamicSquid
1
3
11
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
Ah, no worries man, take your time with things.

I guess we can do it in a few months