One Of The Most Enigmatic Verse In All Christianity

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Of the many strange and anomalous verses and statements written in the New Testament scriptures,  John 11:16 has to belong in the top 10 of mysterious verses.

John 11:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. 

The "him" which  "Thomas, which is called Didymus" is referring to is a supposedly very  "dead"  Lazarus.

And before the usual protests and false accusations of  "writing out of context";  here is the full text containing that enigmatic verse.

John 11:1-16 King James Version (KJV)
11 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
7 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.
8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

The story then continues with the "raising" of Lazarus. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+45&version=KJV


Christianity to my mind is all about life, giving life, sparing life, love of lifelife everlasting and life after death . Jesus himself  speaks only of life and living: 

John 11: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. And indeed the very idea and purpose of Jesus "raising" the dead Lazarus, was to bring him back to life.



 SO, The question of course has to be why would two  fit and healthy people wish to "die" along with the supposedly very dead Lazarus!? Who it is said,  had been dead, for "four days"!!!! (yes I know) .



ethang5
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@Stephen
The "him" which  "Thomas, which is called Didymus" is referring to is a supposedly very  "dead"  Lazarus. 
Really? Let's take a look see.

1 Now a certain man was sick,...

3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.

5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

7 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.

8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?

9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

15 ....nevertheless let us go unto him.

16 Then said Thomas, .....unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.  

Jesus - ...let us go unto him.
Thomas - Let us also go [with him], that we may die with him.

Go where? To Judea, where the Jews there wanted to kill Jesus.

And you think the "him" of Thomas refers to Lazarus? Who's already dead? Really?

Thomas is referring to Jesus, Jethro, not Lazarus. That is why verses 8, 9, and 10 are included in the narrative. The disciples are prepared to go to Judea and die with Jesus if it comes to that because Jesus is determined to go there.

No you can commence your obtuse game of pretending you don't see this post.

Oh, and this verse is not strange or enigmatic or anomalous to anyone but you. Do you even know what anomalous means?

Please look it up before you use it incorrectly again.
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Thomas is referring to Jesus, Jethro, not Lazarus


More lies. And even more attempts to rewrite the scripture and put words into the mouths of the players in the weird story.  The whole story is about the "death" of LAZARUS, and the "raising" of Lazarus as any scholar and infant school child can tell you.


The whole CHAPTER is there and it is made clear. The message came that Lazarus " is sick", while Jesus was lolling around the Jordan. Jesus seems to be in no hurry to go to the aid of his sick friend  and "stayed where he was two more days"..  YET! Jesus for some reason  says that Lazarus is "only sleeping" but then changes his mind: 


11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Like you ethang, Jesus cannot seem to make up his fkn mind up,  as to whether or not LAZARUS is asleep or dead.

The NIV version of this problematic story makes it more that clear as to who and what this story is about. They even title it;

John 11 New International Version (NIV)
The Death of Lazarus


 So away with your bullshite excuses just for once and explain why these two disciples wanted to die.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. 
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@ethang5
Thomas is referring to Jesus, Jethro, not Lazarus


More lies. And even more attempts to rewrite the scripture and put words into the mouths of the players in the weird story.  The whole story is about the "death" of LAZARUS, and the "raising" of Lazarus as any scholar and infant school child can tell you.


The whole CHAPTER is there and it is made clear. The message came that Lazarus " is sick", while Jesus was lolling around the Jordan. Jesus seems to be in no hurry to go to the aid of his sick friend  and "stayed where he was two more days"..  YET! Jesus for some reason  says that Lazarus is "only sleeping" but then changes his mind: 


11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Like you ethang, Jesus cannot seem to make up his fkn mind up,  as to whether or not LAZARUS is asleep or dead.

The NIV version of this problematic story makes it more that clear as to who and what this story is about. They even title it;

John 11 New International Version (NIV)
The Death of Lazarus


 So away with your bullshite excuses just for once and explain why these two disciples wanted to die.

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. 

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@Stephen
The Bible has been translated, rewritten and recompiled so many times.

Is it any wonder that it no longer makes any sense?

Not that any of it made a great deal of sense in the first place.
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@Stephen
Your stupidity is clear.

You say Thomas is referring to Lazarus but can't say why. You just want it accepted though your interpretation makes no sense.

The passage itself shows your claim to be idiotic. What do you think verses, 8, 9, and 10 are saying?

The whole story is about the "death" of LAZARUS, and the "raising" of Lazarus as any scholar and infant school child can tell you.
No one said it wasn't Jethro. But when Thomas said let us go and die with him, he was talking about dying with Jesus in case the Jews of Judea succeeded in killing Him. Would you like a quarter to buy a clue?

Jesus for some reason  says that Lazarus is "only sleeping"...
Lazarus woke up did he not? If you knew Christian doctrine, and was not ignorant, you would know that those in Christ, like Lazarus, do not die, but only sleep, waiting for the day they will be awoken by Christ. You aren't even aware that the bible often refers to Christians who have died as asleep. Because you are ignorant.

This is the best you got? This is your strange and anomalous (lol) and enigmatic passage? And because anti-theists who have never read the passage chime in, you think you're right?

Do your usual song and dance about rewriting verses, but the verses were posted. Your claim is dumb, and you cannot say why you think Thomas was referring to Lazarus.

That's why you started out by placing your slant on the verse before you posted it.

Sorry Habib. You're still fake. You're still empty, and again you've addressed none of my rebuttals. Tossing you is enjoyable!
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@zedvictor4
Here is a book that has changed human history. It is the most printed, the most studied, the most quoted, and the most cherished.

It has inspired great architecture, great literature, great art. It is studied by non-theists for its intellectual depth and stellar prose. It has affected every language on Earth.

Even our history is bisected by the story it tells, millions love it, millions memorise it, many millions more have cherished it. People go to school for years to study it.

But Zed the great wizard says it makes no sense. Imagine how much more the bible would have done if it did make sense! Lol.

Comments like his remind me of the illiterate primitive saying Shakespeare is nonsense. The comment says way more about your ignorance and hubris than it does about the bible Zed of Oz.

You have the internet. All the learning of past generations at your fingertips. You can self publish to the world instantly. Yet you will never write anything as influential, as beautiful, and as essential as a single verse in the bible.

After even your descendants no longer remember you, the bible will still be cherished, still be studied, still be quoted.

Lot of good "making sense" did you.
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Your stupidity is clear.

You say Thomas is referring to Lazarus but can't say why. You just want it accepted though your interpretation makes no sense.

NO.

I am saying the story is about the death and resurrection of Lazarus by Jesus .Learn to fkn read, stupid 

Thomas, for reasons known only to himself, decides it would be a good idea to  go back to Bethany with Jesus and where Lazarus  supposedly lays dead in a tomb and had been so for four days.

And he says this:

16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11%3A1-+16&version=KJV

It goes on to say;- 


17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he  had lain in the grave four days already.
18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
  

So as much as you attempt to rewrite this bullshite story of a dead man being "risen" from the dead via a supposed "miracle", YOU still do not explain what the words "Let us also go, that we may die with him. "   spoken by Thomas actual mean..

And the reason you cannot do this is because you do not understand the story at all. Your biblical teachers didn't know either and if they did , they kept it from you sunshine.



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Here is a book that has changed human history.

I agree. What's you point.

It is the most printed, the most studied, the most quoted, and the most cherished.

Except by you and your cretinous preachers and teachers. It is a shame you don't try studying it a bit closer. 

But Zed the great wizard  [Stephen] says it makes no sense.
And that is true , on the face of it it makes no sense at all on many levels, proven by the fact that people just like you have to lie your way out of tight corners  and re write whole verses when confronted with the insurmountable contradictions and anomalies that the bible contains and as thousands of biblical scholars profess.   Do not blame me for the failure of your cretinous preachers and teachers.



8 days later

ethang5
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@Stephen
Thomas, for reasons known only to himself, decides it would be a good idea to  go back to Bethany with Jesus and where Lazarus  supposedly lays dead in a tomb and had been so for four days.
So? How does that relate to your error that the die with "him" refers to Lazerus?

YOU still do not explain what the words "Let us also go, that we may die with him. "  spoken by Thomas actual mean..
I did. You dodged. Post #6

when Thomas said let us go and die with him, he was talking about dying with Jesus in case the Jews of Judea succeeded in killing Him. 

Dodge it again. The Gentle Readers see it though.
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You dodged. Post #6

Nope. WRONG AGAIN Popoff !!!!!!!!!

You are now trying to tell us all here that this story is about those disciples wishing to "die" along with Jesus and not Lazarus . This  is nothing short of complete denial and out right lies. You do your church, religion and your god a massive disservice.

This is a pathetic lie that is easily debunked. Jesus is very much alive when when he decides eventually that Lazarus is "dead". The only "Dead" man that is mentioned in the WHOLE FKN story is Lazarus. The whole story is about Lazarus supposedly "dying" and Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead.

And YOU still haven't explained why these pathetic disciples would want to "die" in the first place, have you Popoff!!!? 


Peter Popoff Exposed as a Evangelical Fraud


Here for you Popoff, is the complete story. With highlights.


John 11 King James Version (KJV)
11 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
7 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.
8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.
17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he found that had lain in the grave four days.
18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her,Thy brother shall rise again.24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.
29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.
30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.
31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.
32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.
34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.
55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.
56 Then sought they for Jesus, and spake among themselves, as they stood in the temple, What think ye, that he will not come to the feast?
57 Now both the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a commandment, that, if any man knew where he were, he should shew it, that they might take him.



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@Stephen
You are now trying to tell us all here that this story is about those disciples wishing to "die" along with Jesus and not Lazarus . This  is nothing short of complete denial and out right lies. 
Then show us how instead of simply shouting like a retard.

The whole story is about Lazarus supposedly "dying" and Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead.
Then to what purpose is the discourse about the Jews of Judea wanting to kill Jesus and the disciples caution about going there again?

And YOU still haven't explained why these pathetic disciples would want to "die" in the first place, have you Popoff!!!? 
They did not want to die genius, but were willing to go into Judea with their Lord and Master even if it meant they might die with Him.

If you had any knowledge of the text you're criticizing, you would know of the incident in Judea that caused the disciples to be concerned about the safety of Jesus.

But you are dishonest and ignorant, and are clueless about your ignorance. So you go for the totally absurd idea that the "pathetic" disciples want to die with Lazarus, and not Jesus.

Post the passage again, maybe the spam will convince the Gentle Readers your posts aren't nonsense. 
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You are now trying to tell us all here that this story is about those disciples wishing to "die" along with Jesus and not Lazarus . This  is nothing short of complete denial and out right lies. 
Then show us how instead of simply shouting like a retard.

I already did. You are again pretending not to have seen it although I have posted the FKN story. here it is again




Here for you Popoff, is the complete story. With highlights.


John 11 King James Version (KJV)
11 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
7 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.
8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him.
16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him.
17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he found that had lain in the grave four days.
18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her,Thy brother shall rise again.24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.
29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.
30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.
31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.
32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.
34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.
55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.
56 Then sought they for Jesus, and spake among themselves, as they stood in the temple, What think ye, that he will not come to the feast?
57 Now both the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a commandment, that, if any man knew where he were, he should shew it, that they might take him.



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@Stephen
Then show us how instead of simply shouting like a retard.

I already did.
No. You just disagreed, you did not explain why the "him" refers to Lazarus.

Jesus was their Lord and Master. Later in the story, they will confess that they would die for Him. They were concerned that going into Judea would result in Jesus' death. They knew going there was risking death. And they all did eventually die for him.

All of this and you say the "die with him" refers to Lazerus! How inane.

But post the passage yet again, maybe the spam will convince the Gentle Readers your posts aren't nonsense.

You are so lost in your hate and bias, you actually think spam posting verses work for you.

The verse isn't enigmatic. You're just ignorant. And like all ignorant people, you think anything you don't know, is an error.

Go ahead, post it again. Your hate and compulsion will force you. And the Gentle Reader will stop reading your repetitive spam. I won't have to point out your cluelessness.
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@ethang5
You have the patience of a Godparent lol, thank God you're here to deal with the trolls. It would be nice to have a few more mature and serious posters here in this section who are interested in sincere debate and convo. There's a couple users who ruin it for everyone. I'm surprised Disgusted's brother stopped stalking us, he followed me around for like 7 years slandering me! he was old though, maybe his time was up. 
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@EtrnlVw
The new mod team is up to snuff. Give it time. As the dead-weights leave, higher quality posters will come in.

We just need to get past our bad reputation, and posters like you and PGA2.0 help greatly.

...thank God you're here to deal with the trolls.
 Just doing my job Sir.  ; )
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No. You just disagreed, you did not explain why the "him" refers to Lazarus.


Then if you cannot see it after even after it has been pointed out to you then I can now understand how easy it must have been for those preachers and teachers to indoctrinate you , Popoff.


Here for you Popoff, is the complete story. With highlights.


John 11 King James Version (KJV)
11 Now a certain man was sick, named Lazarus, of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha.
2 (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick.
4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.
5 Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.
6 When he had heard therefore that he was sick, he abode two days still in the same place where he was.
7 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.
8 His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?
9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.



14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly,  >>>>>>Lazarus is dead.<<<<<<
15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless>>>>>> let us go unto him.<<<<<
16 Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples,>>>>>> Let us also go, that we may die with him.<<<<<
17 Then when Jesus came, he found that he found that had lain in the grave four days.



18 Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off:
19 And many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.
20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary sat still in the house.
21 Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.
23 Jesus saith unto her,Thy brother shall rise again.24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
28 And when she had so said, she went her way, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Master is come, and calleth for thee.
29 As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly, and came unto him.
30 Now Jesus was not yet come into the town, but was in that place where Martha met him.
31 The Jews then which were with her in the house, and comforted her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up hastily and went out, followed her, saying, She goeth unto the grave to weep there.
32 Then when Mary was come where Jesus was, and saw him, she fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died.
33 When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping which came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled.
34 And said, Where have ye laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see.
35 Jesus wept.
36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!
37 And some of them said, Could not this man, which opened the eyes of the blind, have caused that even this man should not have died?
38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days.
40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
46 But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done.
47 Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.
54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples.
55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.
56 Then sought they for Jesus, and spake among themselves, as they stood in the temple, What think ye, that he will not come to the feast?
57 Now both the chief priests and the Pharisees had given a commandment, that, if any man knew where he were, he should shew it, that they might take him.


You keep denying it and disagreeing , and I will simply keep posting the facts. Popoff, You are not only making your self look ridiculous, but also  in dire need or English reading education.

Peter Popoff Exposed as a Evangelical Fraud



Athias
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@Stephen
It's clear that the verses you reference are talking about the prospect of Jesus's death. They couldn't "die with [Lazarus]" if Lazarus was already dead. But if the disciples were to follow Jesus into Judaea, then there they could "die with him." Not to mention, the chapter starts almost immediately with his disciples warning him that he'd be risking death trying to resurrect Lazarus; if Jesus was going to Judaea to resurrect Lazarus, why would Thomas state that they should go there with Jesus to die with Lazarus? Your conjecture makes no sense. Furthermore, your reference concludes with Jesus's being marked for death by the Pharisees. ethang5's assessment was correct.

It's possible that you just might have a hard time understanding context. I presume this because this is the second time I've seen you take a simple quote and make a mystery out of it. The KJV Bible is difficult to read, so it's understandable. But that should provoke you into humbling yourself to those who are familiar with the text--like ethang5--and, if necessary, solicit an explanation, rather than lash out. It's at least clear to me that you're just trying to make mountains out of molehills in some contrived effort to demonstrate contradiction. It won't work.
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@Athias
They couldn't "die with [Lazarus]" if Lazarus was already dead. But if the disciples were to follow Jesus into Judaea, then there they could "die with him." Not to mention, the chapter starts almost immediately with his disciples warning him that he'd be risking death trying to resurrect Lazarus; if Jesus was going to Judaea to resurrect Lazarus, why would Thomas state that they should go there with Jesus to die with Lazarus? Your conjecture makes no sense. Furthermore, your reference concludes with Jesus's being marked for death by the Pharisees.

It was so good, I had to post it again.

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@Athias
 why would Thomas state that they should go there with Jesus to die with Lazarus? 

Because it is a ritualistic "raising".

Unless you know and understand the meaning of the phrase  "raising the dead", you will never understand this enigmatic verse no more than you will understand the sudden falling down dead  of  Ananias, with Sapphira his wife,  Acts 5.  Or  " let the dead bury the dead" Matthew 8:22


Read this verse and answer my question below it.
 
John 12:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.


Why would these priests want Lazarus dead?



But then  if you  understand the meaning behind the words "raising the dead" you would understand immediately all of the enigmatic verses where "raising from the dead",  "let the dead bury the dead" falling down dead" without explanation, and especially the verse in question , "Let us also go, that we may die with him". 





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@Stephen
Because it is a ritualistic "raising".

Unless you know and understand the meaning of the phrase  "raising the dead", you will never understand this enigmatic verse no more than you will understand the sudden falling down dead  of  Ananias, with Sapphira his wife,  Acts 5.  Or  " let the dead bury the dead" Matthew 8:22


Read this verse and answer my question below it.
 
John 12:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.


Why would these priests want Lazarus dead?



But then  if you  understand the meaning behind the words "raising the dead" you would understand immediately all of the enigmatic verses where "raising from the dead",  "let the dead bury the dead" falling down dead" without explanation, and especially the verse in question , "Let us also go, that we may die with him". 


You're grasping. You're taking phrasings with different contexts and attempting to homogenize their descriptions. Once again, your conjecture makes no sense. The disciples were clearly concerned for Jesus's welfare. It also makes clear that the disciples thought that Jesus was talking of Lazarus "resting in sleep," until Jesus outright told them that Lazarus was dead. Why would Thomas then state that they should go there to die with [Lazarus] if Lazarus was already dead? Unless this hasn't already been made clear, I'll state it plainly: you cannot die with someone who's already dead. Furthermore, the conversation takes place under the context that his disciples believe and are concerned that Jesus is going to die if he goes to Judaea.

Your invocation of different references where the term "raising the dead" is used is irrelevant. There wasn't a single writer; the Bible is an anthology of sorts. And therefore, making references to Acts and Matthew hold no significance without context. It doesn't matter what you believe the general use of the terms are throughout the Bible; it matters only how the people in the gospel chapters are using the terms, and how those around them understand it. That's known as context.

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Just say it guys.
Stephen is a bad scripture translator.  He can take it. 

Imagine judging a scripture deciphering competition. 

I believe approximately, 1.8 billion Christians, are currently in the TOP 100 of best ever scripture translators that has ever been. 
With 1 billion in the TOP 10.

 
Imagine a Christian saying , ' i am not very good at translating scriptures'.
I repeat.
Imagine a Christian saying,   I AM NOT VERY GOOD AT TRANSLATING SCRIPTURE.

Good game.
Good game.

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@Athias
 You're grasping.


I have no reason to grasp at anything. You are wrong.  They didn't go to Judea did they, and the Judea conversation was apart from the sick, then sleeping and then dead Lazarus, wasn't it?  And it is there for those interested  to read. 

Your not happy with my observations and not happy that I have highlighted this enigma. I don't care . There is no way on this earth that another man brought back to life a stinking rotten corpse of a man who was supposedly "dead"  for four days, THAT IS GRASPING. This was a ritualistic "raising" and nothing more.

And therefore, making references to Acts and Matthew hold no significance without context. 

Opinion without supporting substance counts for nothing. But I will come back to this in a minute.
.

I notice you didn't answer my question. so I will answer it for you;

They wanted Lazarus dead because Jesus had "raised him" into the priest hood. The priests believed  Jesus to have no authority to do so. This is why they wanted  him AND Jesus dead. They were afraid of losing the nation over to its rightful king, Jesus, and newly anointed priest Lazarus.

10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

You are just another bible puncher who believes himself to be some great authority on these scriptures. It is impossible for you to accept that underneath these scriptures that there is a massive power struggle going on with no miracles happening . On the surface, apart from a few agitators one would believe that everyone was getting on swimmingly, they wasn't!.

Why would Thomas then state that they should go there to die with [Lazarus] if Lazarus was already dead?

I will put this simply for anyone who may be interested.

Anyone outside of Jesus's circle were known as "the dead".

To be a part of Jesus's inner circle one had to be " raised from the dead" into the circle of the living. 
When one starts to understand this, it is no problem to understand those other enigmatic verses such the sudden falling down dead  of  Ananias with Sapphira his wife,  Acts 5.  Or  " let the dead bury the dead" Matthew 8:22 

Tell me how can the dead bury the dead? They can't can they!!!!?


But the scripture has it that a disciple wanted to have some time off to bury his own father;  but look at what Jesus 's reply is  to the sorrowful request, at 22 below  : 


   Matthew 8:20-22 King James Version (KJV)
20 "And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.


The above makes absolutely no sense unless you understand who "the dead" actually are. The disciple in mourning was among the living and a part of Jesus' circle, the disciples DEAD father was already among the dead. Hence the words  "let the dead bury THEIR dead".

I understand that these simply truths are hard for you to swallow after all of your years of Christian indoctrination.
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@Stephen
Let's entertain your premise and operate under this assumption of yours that "raising the dead" was ritualistic, and that "the dead" was a symbolic demarcation of those spiritually awakened by the word of God, and those who are not, why would Thomas then state that they should go there and die with [Lazarus]? Your conjecture, even with the use of this premise, makes no sense. It continues to be an "enigma" because you have trouble understanding, even when replacing premises, the importance of context.
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@Athias
why would Thomas then state that they should go there and die with [Lazarus]?

You have asked this twice now and I believe I have addressed it twice already above . So I will make it more clear for you, 
both with another answer and another question to you, questions of mine that you keep failing to address.

Thomas suggests going along to the "raising" of Lazarus and to "die" along with him in the hope that they too may be "raised" to a higher status in the priesthood if not the movement in general. It was all to do with being "raised" i.e.  promoted in the ranks of the movement.

Now your turn. try not to avoid them>

Why would Jesus allow these apparently young sane   healthy men to die?

Did we hear any protestations from the life giving Jesus concerning the ridiculousness and pitiful waste of life that Thomas was proposing!????

Did they die?

Did Jesus "raise them from the dead"?

What was they worried about? If the chief priests who sought to kill Lazarus  had succeeded in putting Lazarus to a real and physical and mortal

death wouldn't Jesus have simply  "raised him from the dead" again? He was after all, the only disciple that it is mentioned that "Jesus loved".John 11:3


Your conjecture, even with the use of this premise, makes no sense. 
I mean,  how stupid were these Chief Priests not to realise that If Jesus had "raised a dead man" to life once before that he would

 simply do it again if they succeeded in their mission of murdering Lazarus "whom he lovest" ."? <<<<<   It is clearly your own belief that makes no sense, Athias. 


You haven't haven't told me why YOU think the chief priests wanted Lazarus Dead?

 I asked you:
Why would these priests want Lazarus dead?  You avoided it.

I asked you:
Tell me how can the dead bury the dead?  You avoided it.
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@Stephen
You have asked this twice now and I believe I have addressed it twice already above . So I will make it more clear for you, 
both with another answer and another question to you, questions of mine that you keep failing to address.

Thomas suggests going along to the "raising" of Lazarus and to "die" along with him in the hope that they too may be "raised" to a higher status in the priesthood if not the movement in general. It was all to do with being "raised" i.e.  promoted in the ranks of the movement.
I am not avoiding your questions; I have yet to accept your premise because you have not substantiated it. Your premise completely relies on the rejection of the possibility of resurrection and the assumption that raising the dead is a symbolic gesture of granting "priesthood." If that were the case, then your argument, once again, makes no sense. Here, I'll use your words:

To be a part of Jesus's inner circle one had to be " raised from the dead" into the circle of the living. 
Thomas was an apostle. So by your description, he was already "raised from the dead." Why would he then suggest that they "die" only to be "raised" again? Even if you were going to argue that he wanted an advanced position in the "priesthood" why would he have "to die" (revert) to advance if he's already in an advanced position (apostle)? Your conjecture, and that's all it is, makes no sense.


Now your turn. try not to avoid them
I will entertain your questions once you substantiate your premise.


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I am not avoiding your questions; I have yet to accept your premise because you have not substantiated it. 

I don't need you to accept anything . You don't have to accept what I have wrote OR what I believe for you to answer questions concerning the scriptures, do you? They are simple genuine questions that you are still avoiding without reason/  There is no excuse for you not to address them at all.

Your premise completely relies on the rejection of the possibility of resurrection.

Yes, So what? YOURS totally relies on faith without question and not fact.  On miracles without proof.  And the belief in something that has never been proven or repeated. Have you for instance "raised anyone from dead"? Have you witnessed anyone being "raised from the dead" ?. I think I have made my observations very clear. But this should give you absolutely no reason to avoid my questions.

and the assumption that raising the dead is a symbolic gesture of granting "priesthood."

Or to some other rank in the movement. You are now just repeating what I have stated whilst still avoiding my questions. Why?




To be a part of Jesus's inner circle one had to be " raised from the dead" into the circle of the living. 

Thomas was an apostle. So by your description, he was already "raised from the dead." 

Thomas was of a lower ranking status in the movement.  He was just an disciple  among other disciples. Why is it that Lazarus at first was said to  be only  "sick" and  then "sleeping"  and then finally pronounced "dead" by Jesus, if we are to believe what you want us to believe.  And remember, this was the SAME "doubting" Thomas, which is called Didymus, wasn't it. It was wasn't it?

Your conjecture, and that's all it is, makes no sense.

Remember Jesus himself said that Lazarus was only sleeping and that the "This sickness is not unto death"!!!?  But according to the scripture and your own belief Lazarus did "die" didn't he? How can Lord god almighty, god in three persons get it so wrong???!!!!!  And he not only got it completely wrong, the scriptures states that he could have saved him from "dying" had he not "tarried" a further two days done by the river. <<<<, Again it is these scriptures and your belief in them that " makes no sense".


I will entertain your questions once you substantiate your premise.

Then I will assume you have absolutely no intention of affording me the same time and courtesy that I have afforded you.  

You have no answers to my questions. And I am not surprised, my questions on this particular enigmatic biblical point have never been answered.





Your conjecture, even with the use of this premise, makes no sense. 
 It is clearly your own belief that makes no sense, Athias. and this is why you are ducking reasonable questions concerning your own scriptures. 

 I asked you:
 How stupid were these Chief Priests not to realise that If Jesus had "raised a dead man" to life once before that he would simply do it again if they succeeded in their mission of murdering Lazarus "whom he lovest" ?  You avoided it.


You haven't haven't told me why YOU think the chief priests wanted Lazarus Dead? You avoided it.

 I asked you:
Why would these priests want Lazarus dead?  You avoided it.

I asked you:
Tell me how can the dead bury the dead?  You avoided it.

I asked you:
How did Jesus know that Lazarus was dead? You avoided it.

I asked you:
Why would Jesus allow these apparently young sane   healthy men to die? You avoided it.


I asked you:
Did we hear any protestations from the life giving Jesus concerning the ridiculousness and pitiful waste of life that Thomas was proposing!????You avoided it.


I asked you:
Did they die? You avoided it.


I asked you:
Did Jesus "raise Thomas and the pother disciples from the dead"? You avoided it.


I asked you:
What was they worried about? If the chief priests who sought to kill Lazarus  had succeeded in putting Lazarus to a real and physical and mortal
death wouldn't Jesus have simply  "raised him from the dead" again? He was after all, the only disciple that it is mentioned that "Jesus loved".John 11:3.  You avoided it.







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@Stephen
I don't need you to accept anything . You don't have to accept what I have wrote OR what I believe for you to answer questions concerning the scriptures, do you? They are simple genuine questions that you are still avoiding without reason/  There is no excuse for you not to address them at all.
Your questions are tantamount to "having me prove you wrong" rather than your "proving your arguments, right." Your argument is that the mention of the dead is in reference to those outside of Jesus's inner circle and that "raising the dead" is a ritualistic advancement in "the movement." You have yet to substantiate this. So I'm not going to do you any favors that place the onus on me to contradict and/or refute you, rather than your providing proof and/or substance to the affirmation of your claim.

Yes, So what? YOURS totally relies on faith without question and not fact.  On miracles without proof.  And the belief in something that has never been proven or repeated.
Once again, your belief is irrelevant. You lack any observational data to confirm or deny what they witnessed. You're merely assuming an anachronistic consistency to a scientific method, I don't think you fully understand. Remember our dispute is one over description and lexical semantics, not material verification. The only significant and relevant factor is their (Jesus and his disciples') belief in accordance to the translation, not yours. Once again, that is known as context.

Or to some other rank in the movement.

Thomas was of a lower ranking status in the movement.  He was just an disciple  among other disciples.
Provide substance to this claim.

Then I will assume you have absolutely no intention of affording me the same time and courtesy that I have afforded you.  
It's not about "courtesy," it's about your onus.

 It is clearly your own belief that makes no sense, Athias. and this is why you are ducking reasonable questions concerning your own scriptures. 
What are my beliefs? One of the many issues concerning your arguments is that you make too many assumptions. And I'm not "ducking" reasonable questions concerning [my] own scriptures." I'm "ducking" your attempt to defer your onus and place it on me. Once again, I don't have to prove your arguments wrong; you have to prove your arguments right. This is not a my turn, then your turn dynamic. Until you substantiate your premise, I'm not going to answer any of your questions.



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@Stephen
This is a lot simpler than all this talk in the topic would have it be.

Right before your quoted scripture, it says



"Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.
His disciples say unto him, Master, the Jews of late sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?"


Thomas is refering to the fact that they are going to Judea, where they want to kill Jesus. Lazarus is in Judea.

So actually, yes, context does clear this up. 




Tradesecret
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@ethang5
@Stephen
@Mopac
Hi guys, and a happy Christmas to you all with a new year quickly following. 

Interesting question Stephen. 

I must say I have read the verse many times and never found it to be enigmatic or anything problematic at all. Like Ethang and others on this topic, I read it in the context of vv. 7 and 8 and honestly, that makes sense because if the disciples understood that there were people attempting to kill Jesus, that going back into the same area would raise the same fears. Thomas the person equated with these words (typically referred to as  the doubter) would gain better fame if people commenced with these bold and brave words rather than his so called doubting later on. 

Still, that was my position and currently it remains that way as well. I have nevertheless attempted to understand your position and tried to appreciate what you are attempting to get across. Your assertion of ritual raising is intriguing as is your assertion that Jesus demarcated those outside his inner circle as dead. (using the Matthew passage here "let the dead bury their own dead" was an interesting interpretational method). As also bringing in Ananias and Sapphira from the book of Acts. 

However what interested me most was  your quote "It is impossible for you to accept that underneath these scriptures that there is a massive power struggle going on with no miracles happening ."  That was quite revealing of your position.  

The story reads at odds with your underlying desire for rationalisation. It is difficult for you to take at face value "miracles". Although why that is the case when you clearly believe in some kind of deity is intriguing. 

That the religious leaders wanted Lazarus dead is hardly a difficult proposition. He was "living" proof of Jesus' authority over death. The people of Israel could hardly refute his miracle raising from the dead. After all - he was dead for four days and every one knew it.  IMPOSSIBLE. And every time someone met him or saw him - they would know Jesus had brought him back from the dead. So the Jewish leaders - like most politicians - took the view that the only good Lazarus was a dead Lazarus. 

Sometimes you ask good questions but at times it is like you just ignore the plain and simple. 

Still let us get back to your ritualistic raising of the dead - the raising of Lazarus to a higher rank of priest or whatever. Where in the NT is your evidence for such thinking? I might have been indoctrinated - but at least provide the NT evidence for such an assertion. 

It is true that Christians take the view that non-believers are dead. this is a spiritual or covenantal death only. It is not like they treat them as though they are literal or physically dead. I am not sure that Jesus only saw those in his inner circles as alive. In fact there are many people who are not in his inner circle who would be alive - I can think of some of the healed people for instance.  Jesus would of course have seen those who believe in him as alive to him. Yet, Lazarus' sisters were concerned for his health. He was ill. When Jesus arrived at the graveside people were concerned not to open the tomb because he had been dead 4 days and would smell.  This makes no sense if it is only a ritual ceremony putting him to another level of priesthood. Unless of course you think he was literally dead and Jesus was making a symbolic ceremony. 

I think the connection to Acts is unjustified. These two were put to death by God because they had lied to God. There is no evidence of priesthood graduation. Let the dead bury the dead is I agree an interesting and difficult passage, yet it is in the context of discipleship and priorities.  Again this is a different context to Lazarus. Jesus wanted serious people who were committed to him above all, including family, friends, and money. He was attempting to dissuade some from following him - "the son of man has no place to rest his head". 

I guess that when you begin with the premise that miracles are lies or myths then the raising of a dead man has to be explained in some other way. It is easier to believe that the underlying story is about power struggles rather than God dealing with issue of sin. Certainly in this story, I agree there are power struggles going on - the Jewish leaders detest Jesus and his disciples and want him gone. Raising a man from the dead was too powerful and to alluring for the ordinary person to ignore and so the raised man needed to disappear. This was the power struggle. The religious leaders did not WANT a messiah. Not this messiah who could not be controlled by the powers that be. He was dangerous. 

Ignoring the natural reading of the story however in order to find a spin on the miracles is not only pointless from my point of view - it derails the intent of the author.  His intent is to demonstrate that Jesus has power over death. Not just spiritual death, but literal physical death.  Indeed, it was a foreshadow of his own death and resurrection. 

Still thanks for giving me something new to think about.  It certainly occupied my attention for a few hours.