No One Can EVER Answer This Question Satisfactorily ........

Author: Stephen

Posts

Total: 64
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,255
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
.......Who was the serpent that had tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden. 

I have read what maybe a reference to the serpents identity but god forbid!!!!  that  I should bare false witness and identify the wrong person, if indeed it was even a person.


In the book of Revelation, Satan is called “the ancient serpent” (Revelation 12:9, 20:2), is this referring to the snake in Genesis?

EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Stephen
There was never a talking snake....surprise, surprise! can you believe that everyone? uh ohhh, we're back to figurative again.
The serpent is representative of the forms of temptation mankind faces in this life, this has nothing to do with any snake, it's just being used to form an illustration so the serpent wasn't really a "who" even though the devil and or Satan are often times used to reference the negative forces. And lo and behold Adam and Eve are representative of mankind as a whole. Most of what is being portrayed in Genesis is symbolic, much of it has layered meanings. And yes, that includes the tree of life, the curses and everything else.

Note that temptations are subtle, they begin with thought....they are weighed out in the individuals mind...they take on an emotional grasp, the individual wrestles with that temptation....then, after indulgence they reek havoc on the individuals life. You can say that temptations are the root of all the bad things man does, and because of this temptations are considered a curse above all things. Once they are fulfilled, it's like eating "dust" in that carnal desires are never satisfied. They promise satisfaction to the individual, but they can never fulfill that promise.

Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,255
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@EtrnlVw
There was never a talking snake....surprise, surprise!

It is generally considered to be a talking snake , I know, it is rather silly but so is  grabbing dragon by the tail in revelation.  But I do ask WHO and not WHAT.  And it does  mention a serpent all the same. So of the many species there are of reptiles and serpents you can choose which ever you think Genesis is referring to. I am not fussed in the slightest. Its the identity of the "serpent" I am asking about.


>>>>>>>>>>The question is What is the identity of the serpent in the garden of Eden.,


The serpent is representative of the forms of temptation mankind faces in this life,

I see. Satan or Devil or both or one and the same?


this has nothing to do with any snake,
I didn't really believe it was that is why I asked WHO and not WHAT , but your missing my question.



it's just being used to form an illustration so the serpent wasn't really a "who" even though the devil and or Satan are often times used to reference the negative forces.

I see. So are the Devil and Satan one and the same entity or being;  and are they simply being referenced or referred to as  a serpent?  And  could  you  be clear on that.


And lo and behold Adam and Eve are representative of mankind as a whole.

I see. But this is way way past having anything to do with my actual question. here>> Who was the serpent that had tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden?  Notice I ask who and not what.

Most of what is being portrayed in Genesis is symbolic,

Well, well, well, I'd never have guessed. So can you answer my question now.



much of it has layered meanings. And yes, that includes the tree of life, the curses and everything else.

Ok. But what about my question. 

Note that temptations are subtle, they begin with thought....they are weighed out in the individuals mind...they take on an emotional grasp, the individual wrestles with that temptation....then, after indulgence they reek havoc on the individuals life.

Well spotted. Now about my original question. 



You can say that temptations are the root of all the bad things man does,

Yes you can. Now about my question?


and because of this temptations are considered a curse above all things.

Ok

Once they are fulfilled, it's like eating "dust" in that carnal desires are never satisfied. They promise satisfaction to the individual, but they can never fulfill that promise.

It must have been my writing. It must have been way way too small for you to read.  try this>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WHO WAS THE SERPENT THAT TEMPTED EVE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN<<<<<<<<<<<<<<????

.



SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@Stephen
In the book of Revelation, Satan is called “the ancient serpent” (Revelation 12:9, 20:2), is this referring to the snake in Genesis?
You have just answered your own question. But seriously, what do you mean "No One Can EVER Answer This Question Satisfactorily"? Pretty much every Christian everywhere thinks it was Satan, and you just provided strong evidence that they're right. 

Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,940
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
-->
@SirAnonymous
Could you change the word ( thinks ) to knows? 


Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,255
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@SirAnonymous
You have just answered your own question. But seriously, what do you mean "No One Can EVER Answer This Question Satisfactorily"? Pretty much every Christian everywhere thinks it was Satan, and you just provided strong evidence that they're right.
I couldn't be sure I was right though. This is why I say, it has never for me, been Satisfactorily answered. And a perfect example of what I mean is given above  at post #2 by the great biblical wordsmith himself EtrnlVw.

He tells us the serpent is only "symbolic".  and is " only  representative of the forms of temptation mankind faces".   Is he not correct? 

And he hasn't related or equate Satan Or the Devil at all to this serpent in the Garden. So, should he;  as you seem to have done.? And has Revelation appears to also do?


 Pretty much every Christian everywhere thinks it was Satan, and you just provided strong evidence that they're right.

It would be nice to hear that it is "strong evidence"  from someone who believes they know more or better ,  SirAnonymous. 


You have just answered your own question.
I have only said that I have read ...what maybe.... a reference to the serpents identity. I wouldn't want to say it definitely is one and the same.
. Are you a devout Christian, SirAnonymous ? and are you telling me that the serpent of the Garden is the Satan also known as the Devil? (Revelation 12:9, 20:2)

And could you just clear up for me if or not the serpent/Satan Devil at Genesis 3:1 is the same serpent Satan Devil as the one cursed Genesis 3:14



Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@Stephen
Its the identity of the "serpent" I am asking about.

There are a few different thoughts on the matter. A litteral reading of the account suggests it is just a random snake, nobody special.

Ask many Christians today and they will claim that it is Satan in disguise, as you mentioned.

Ask the people that actually wrote the damn story and they will tell you that it is a metaphor as Etrnl said above.
ludofl3x
ludofl3x's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,006
3
2
2
ludofl3x's avatar
ludofl3x
3
2
2
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
Ask the people that actually wrote the damn story

If only this were possible, it'd help clear up a lot! The problem with introducing the possiblity that it was a metaphor means that all other supernatural claims in the bible, including the resurrection of Jesus, the central myth of Christianity, is ALSO a metaphor (his spirit lives on in us, therefore it's kind of like he's back from the dead, right?). There's no clear way in the bible to delineate that two. 
Discipulus_Didicit
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 5,294
3
4
10
Discipulus_Didicit's avatar
Discipulus_Didicit
3
4
10
-->
@ludofl3x
Well I don't believe any of the supernatural claims in the bible but mopac does, maybe you can take it up with him since he also likes to pick and choose some parts to just be metaphor lol.
ethang5
ethang5's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 5,875
3
3
6
ethang5's avatar
ethang5
3
3
6
a metaphor means that all other supernatural claims in the bible, including the resurrection of Jesus, the central myth of Christianity, is ALSO a metaphor
Why? This seems like a false dichotomy.

he also likes to pick and choose some parts to just be metaphor lol.
This implies that they are either ALL literal or ALL metaphor. Why? Why can't the bible have both?
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@ludofl3x
If only this were possible, it'd help clear up a lot! The problem with introducing the possiblity that it was a metaphor means that all other supernatural claims in the bible, including the resurrection of Jesus, the central myth of Christianity, is ALSO a metaphor (his spirit lives on in us, therefore it's kind of like he's back from the dead, right?). There's no clear way in the bible to delineate that two.

Actually it can be both, just as with many spiritual texts the usage of language alternates between literal and figurative...analogies, metaphors, symbolic ect ect. It's just the way they communicated back then. Even if we say much of Genesis is metaphoric the message of the account is not lost, it stands either way. But since we know snakes never had voice boxes and talked like humans this is a no-brainer. And nowhere do we see IRL that "Satan" has the power to make animals talk like humans lol.
I would say common sense goes along way deciphering what is literal and what is figurative in scripture. Now, had I said it was figurative but was unable to explain what the meaning then is, that is another story. Then you could say BS, but notice how my claim fits perfectly with the whole scenario. So did the authors really want us to believe a snake spoke like a human or does my assessment make sense? same goes with Adam and Eve, were they the first humans that were formed from dust of the ground or are they symbolic representatives of Mankind as a whole? since we know that humans existed prior to Adam and Eve this again is a no-brainer, on top of that it makes much more sense.


EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Stephen
I couldn't be sure I was right though. This is why I say, it has never for me, been Satisfactorily answered. And a perfect example of what I mean is given above  at post #2 by the great biblical wordsmith himself EtrnlVw.
He tells us the serpent is only "symbolic".  and is " only  representative of the forms of temptation mankind faces".   Is he not correct?

There's no logical reason to reject anything I've said, everything within the text remains intact. Even if people assumed all this figurative language is literal they can change their mind right now.

SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@Stephen
I couldn't be sure I was right though. This is why I say, it has never for me, been Satisfactorily answered.
So? Suppose the snake isn't Satan. It makes no difference. All that would mean is that there's a part of the Bible we don't understand. That proves...absolutely nothing.
And a perfect example of what I mean is given above  at post #2 by the great biblical wordsmith himself EtrnlVw.

He tells us the serpent is only "symbolic".  and is " only  representative of the forms of temptation mankind faces".   Is he not correct? 

And he hasn't related or equate Satan Or the Devil at all to this serpent in the Garden. So, should he;  as you seem to have done.? And has Revelation appears to also do?
He's not a Christian, though. He thinks that all religions have some truth, but none are completely right. To him, anything can be metaphorical.
It would be nice to hear that it is "strong evidence"  from someone who believes they know more or better ,  SirAnonymous. 
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. Could you rephrase that?
Are you a devout Christian, SirAnonymous ?
Yes.
and are you telling me that the serpent of the Garden is the Satan also known as the Devil?
Probably, or just a random snake that the devil was speaking through. Again, though, what's the point of this question?
And could you just clear up for me if or not the serpent/Satan Devil at Genesis 3:1 is the same serpent Satan Devil as the one cursed Genesis 3:14
Most of it was to Satan, but the part about crawling on the belly was probably for all snakes.
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@SirAnonymous
He's not a Christian, though. He thinks that all religions have some truth, but none are completely right.

I've been a Christian probably longer than most people here Sir. I've been studying the Bible since I was a young kid. And yes, other religions have good insights, the Bible is not the only source of knowledge. 

To him, anything can be metaphorical.

Lol, the Bible alternates between literal and figurative throughout the entire Book. 
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@SirAnonymous
Probably, or just a random snake that the devil was speaking through.

Can you give us an example IRL where this happens at all ever? or did "the devil" just have the power to make a snake talk just for Genesis? or, better yet read my analysis of the account.

EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@Stephen
And he hasn't related or equate Satan Or the Devil at all to this serpent in the Garden.

Lets say Satan or the Devil does in fact exist, they can certainly be a part of tempting people, but my assessment still stands. We know snakes can't talk like humans or talk at all, and nowhere do we see IRL Satan making animals speak. We also know the devil is not omnipresent, temptations take on all forms with all people in many different ways. So temptation doesn't belong to the devil, animals don't talk, the devil can't make animals speak. But I will readily admit that spirits can manipulate human souls, no question about it, but that is not relevant to talking animals lol. I'm sure my assessment is correct in what I wrote. It makes sense from all angles. 
There's a ton of symbolism in the Adam and Eve story. 
SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@EtrnlVw
I've been a Christian probably longer than most people here Sir.
Sorry. Your bio said other for religion, so I thought you weren't.
SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@EtrnlVw
Can you give us an example IRL where this happens at all ever?
The demon-possessed people in the NT.

EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@SirAnonymous
Sorry. Your bio said other for religion, so I thought you weren't.

I'm not your average fundamentalist no, and my beliefs aren't limited to just the Bible. But Christianity is my foundation. 
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@SirAnonymous
The demon-possessed people in the NT.

I meant can you give me an example where animals speak. Not in scripture. 
SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@EtrnlVw
No. Of course animals can't speak naturally. However, Satan is supernatural, and the Bible doesn't say a lot about what he can and can't do.
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@SirAnonymous
You're free to believe the account is literal of course, but you do know that the Bible uses both forms of language right? actually the Bible uses all different forms of writing styles. So why would you force a literal application to obvious figurative writing? 


EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@SirAnonymous
and the Bible doesn't say a lot about what he can and can't do.

That's where we use common sense and appeal to real life. 

SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@EtrnlVw
You're free to believe the account is literal of course, but you do know that the Bible uses both forms of language right? actually the Bible uses all different forms of writing styles.
Yes, I know.
So why would you force a literal application to obvious figurative writing? 
Because it isn't obviously figurative.
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@SirAnonymous
Because it isn't obviously figurative.

Then what is figurative, if not a talking snake? is there anything in my first post you disagree with? analogies and metaphors ARE obvious, this is one of those instances. But you're free to believe the devil makes animals talk, I can't stop that. 
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@SirAnonymous
And people being formed from dust? flying swords and women being made with another mans ribs lol? that was previously formed from dirt...
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@SirAnonymous
Then what is figurative, if not a talking snake?
And people being formed from dust? tree of knowledge of good and evil....flying swords and women being made with another mans ribs lol? that was previously formed from dirt...
This is all symbolic and figurative use of language...
The same goes with the very first chapter of Genesis, that is not how God creates worlds, that is just a mental image and picture of creation the authors were trying to portray, it's not literal. Creation is actually created through processes, the Genesis account is just a way of relaying the concept of creation, not the actual literal processes. 

SirAnonymous
SirAnonymous's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 4,140
3
7
10
SirAnonymous's avatar
SirAnonymous
3
7
10
-->
@EtrnlVw
How are those things obvious metaphors? God is supernatural. So is Satan. They are capable of doing things that break natural laws because natural laws don't apply to them. If you accept the existence of supernatural beings, then you must accept the possibility of supernatural events.
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,255
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@Discipulus_Didicit
Ask the people that actually wrote the damn story and they will tell you that it is a metaphor as Etrnl said above.

Only the biblical wordsmith himself Etrnl didn't actually write "the damn story". No, what he has done is given us how he believes the whole Eden story should be interpreted. Which isn't a problem as he is more than entitled to do so, but is it correct.


Ask many Christians today and they will claim that it is Satan in disguise, as you mentioned.

No. I believe that  it was someone else that said that at post #4 >> "Christian everywhere thinks it was Satan".  I still do not know what to believe. Do all or the majority of Christians believe that the  identity of the garden serpent is "Satan and the Devil"? Revelation 12:9, 20:2. I have had just within four post two different opinions. So I am still undecided. 

And maybe you could clear up for me if or not the serpent/Satan Devil at Genesis 3:1 is the same serpent Satan Devil as the one cursed Genesis 3:14
Stephen
Stephen's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 8,255
3
2
2
Stephen's avatar
Stephen
3
2
2
-->
@EtrnlVw
I couldn't be sure I was right though. This is why I say, it has never for me, been Satisfactorily answered. And a perfect example of what I mean is given above  at post #2 by the great biblical wordsmith himself EtrnlVw.
He tells us the serpent is only "symbolic".  and is " only  representative of the forms of temptation mankind faces".   Is he not correct?

There's no logical reason to reject anything I've said,
Have I done that? 


everything within the text remains intact.
I haven't said different. But then who is the "ancient serpent" of Revelation referring to-  Revelation 12:9, 20:2. It clearly states there that it is the same  " Devil, and Satan". And who are the Devil and Satan



Even if people assumed all this figurative language is literal they can change their mind right now.
So are you changing your mind. Are these Devil Satan  not symbolic but actual living characters mentioned so often throughout the scripture?


it's just being used to form an illustration so the serpent wasn't really a "who" even though the devil and or Satan are often times used to reference the negative forces.
I see. So are the Devil and Satan one and the same entity or being;  and are they simply being referenced or referred to as  a serpent?  And  could  you  be clear on that.


And he hasn't related or equate Satan Or the Devil at all to this serpent in the Garden.

Lets say Satan or the Devil does in fact exist,
Well, do they or do they not exist? I am interested in what it is that you say. You have said that the serpent of the garden is only symbolic. I have said Revelation appears to say different in identifying who the serpent in the garden actually is. "That ancient serpent" Revelation 12:9, 20:2



they can certainly be a part of tempting people,

So they exist then? 


but my assessment still stands.

Well I wouldn't ever  expect you to back-peddle, now would I?  Although the evidence seem to be showing your interpretation to be , well, wrong. So are you now saying then that - the identity of the Garden serpent that tempted Eve to be Satan called Devil as revelation appears to be doing so.Revelation 12:9, 20:2


We know snakes can't talk like humans or talk at all,
That depends doesn't it, if I am to take on board what it is you are saying.  First we need to establish  if or not that  - the garden serpent,- the ancient serpent.- the Devil and Satan are all one and the same, don't we. 


. But I will readily admit that spirits can manipulate human souls, no question about it,
Nothing to do with the question can we stick to the question



 I'm sure my assessment is correct in what I wrote.
Well you would.

 
There's a ton of symbolism in the Adam and Eve story. 

Ok. That is your opinion, but somehow you have manged to completely left original question behind.

It is quite simple. I want to know the identity of the serpent that is said to have tempted Eve in the garden of Eden. Is it in your opinion as revelation suggests or not? Just say Yes or No.

Revelation 20:2 New International Version (NIV)
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, 

Revelation 12:9 New International Version (NIV)
9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan