"evidence of the afterlife" is a book with good evidence of the afterlife

Author: n8nrgmi

Posts

Total: 22
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
i encourage folks to read Dr. Long’s book “evidence of the afterlife” to get some concrete science that points to NDEs being more than just hallucinations. for example, when out of body experiences are studied under scientific conditions, the folks who have the experience are almost always accurate in describing events that happened outside their body while they were dead. folks who try to just guess what happened outside their body are almost always way off. the book mentions the work of heart surgeon (skeptic turned believer in the ‘realness’ of NDEs) Dr. Parnia, the AWARE study, where a couple experiences accurately describe events outside the body in a verified and documented situation. another factoid, is that folks meet relatives during the experience and the relatives are almost always dead: if this was just a hallucination, folks would experience living folks and less relatives a lot more often. then there’s how drugs dont replicate the NDE….. drug experiences are almost always random experiences, random imagery in hallucinations, not consistent stories with common themes of the afterlife like NDEs. also, there’s the fact that common themes like tunnels and meeting a being of light are consistent when measured and documented across cultures and with people who have never heard of NDEs, including young kids. finally there’s just a philosophical point…. the idea that people just consistently hallucinate afterlife stories when they die pushes credibility. is there some story embedded in our brain or genes or something? it’s a ridiculous notion.
there’s a load of other scientific factoids in that book. i highly recommend it. clearly there’s something deeper going on with NDEs than just hallucinations.

Salixes
Salixes's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 494
1
1
4
Salixes's avatar
Salixes
1
1
4
-->
@n8nrgmi
there’s a load of other scientific factoids in that book. i highly recommend it. clearly there’s something deeper going on with NDEs than just hallucinations.
There is not one single relevant "scientific factoid" in that excuse for a book.
And there is nothing deeper except deeper hallucinations.

The entire book is about as shallow as Paris Hilton's intellect and makes not one statement and instead alludes by questioning.

It is an utter piece of unmitigated rubbish.

192 days later

n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
such hardened hearts

163 days later

n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
lolcat
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,223
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@n8nrgmi
Looks like a dead horse that you are flogging there....I wonder if it had an NDE.

Of course the obvious similarity between an NDExperiencer and a DEexperiencer , is that the neither can actually experience or relate an afterlife experience. 
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
so your claim is that it's common for people to hallucinate afterlife stories when they die. that's a pretty wild claim, too.  are afterlife stories embedded in our brain, our genes, or or how does that work? 
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
not to mention that you didn't even try engaging in the evidence in the opening post. which is no surprise, because the evidence objectively points to a mystical experience... and it's easier to just wave your hands of it, if your choice is to ignore the evidence and have faith in nothingness when we die. 
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
-->
@zedvictor4
why are the people in near death experiences almost always dead? what is preventing them from hallucinating their loved ones who are living, a lot more often, if all it is is a hallucination? 
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,223
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@n8nrgmi
A. One is either dead or not.

B. Where do dreams come from.

C. "Almost always dead"?.....See A.

D. Mystical is as mystical does.....As far as we are able to know, mystery is a preoccupation of the living. 
n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
this thread just shows that atheists like skepticism for the sake of skepticism... and it shows how ignorant and idiotic the atheistic world view really is. 
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@n8nrgmi
People who speculate that the brain is the only thing responsible for conscious life will always seek to confirm that through their reasoning and understanding of the world, and we all know what that is called. If the soul exists as it exists independent of the physical body then we should have at least some form of evidence to show that it is a true proposition or some kind of correlating support. We have more than enough if we look at spiritual phenomenon as a whole, which also includes a massive field of witness through NDE's....which IS.... a direct first hand fact that the soul exists independent of the physical body. Paranormal encounters also show that entities exist outside the immediate physical realm, which also supports that consciousness is not anywhere close to being confined to human brains, or any brain matter.

What I find to be unmistakable about NDE's is that they show beyond a shadow of a doubt that consciousness can be experienced outside the domains of a physical brain, whereas the normal perceptions of conscious awareness always take place within the observation point of the human body. Dreams are a poor example and it's funny anyone would use that as a means of proving anything about NDE's. It's like they think people are stupid and don't know the difference between being consciously "awake" and having a dream. When we wake up from dreaming we always know that we were dreaming because the experience is distinct from the real life waking state, and people who have experienced the soul leaving the body always know they were NOT dreaming, as a matter of fact they always testify how much more aware they were than in the physical body.
Hallucinations are a stupid example also, and again treat people as if they are ignorant and can't tell reality from fiction. And most of the time these occurrences happen to otherwise perfectly normal and healthy individuals who know what conscious experience is and how to distinguish it from some hallucination, I mean come on, it doesn't matter to those who have already decided to believe that any conscious observations independent of the physical world don't occur. So it simply has no relevance whether or not there is sufficient evidence despite that speculation.

The fact of the matter is, it can be shown that NDE's occur even during complete brain death and up to hours later. Meaning there is correlating medical evidence that NDE's are taking place with zero brain activity! and we know through the testimonies that the person is having conscious experience AWAY from the confines of the physical body, meaning being able to travel through space an time from a separate location outside the body. This does not happen when the brain is the individuals observation point, the brain is responsible for confining a person experience to a physical body and the moment the body shuts down the soul detaches from the body and is able to travel feely outside that body. And we can show that through the evidence and not just making claims about a soul. So here we have a proposition that's been put forward for thousands of years and we have mounds of correlating evidence that supports that claim and people want to believe something they can never substantiate.

The brain is nothing more than an electrical component/conduit that isolates a souls experience to the confines of this world through the physical body, it has nothing to do with creating or generating a persons being. That persons conscious awareness exists independent of a brain (AKA soul). 

FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,087
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@EtrnlVw

Dr. Steven Laureys heads the Coma Science Group at the university hospital in the city of Liege. He and his colleagues published a scientific study on NDEs in 2013.
NDEs feel “even more real than real,” Laureys said. It’s this sparkling clarity and living color of the experience, which many have when they lose consciousness, that he and his team have researched.
But he doesn’t think it comes from a spirit world. Laureys is a scientist, he emphasizes. He prefers not to mix that with religion.
His hypothesis is that near-death experiences originate in human physiology. “It is this dysfunctional brain that produces these phenomena,” he said.
Laureys says. “There is no evidence there can be conscious experience without brain activity,” he said.
Lying in your hospital bed, you have become a true believer, and you are happier for it.
But your brain never died, the doctor tells you. You were in a coma. Perhaps your heart stopped for a while; maybe it didn’t. But that’s not even necessary to have an out-of-body experience.
“Many individuals having had NDEs were not physically in danger of death suggesting that the perception, on its own, of the risk of death seems to be important in eliciting NDEs,” the study said.
It’s enough just to think you’re dying to have one.


zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,223
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@EtrnlVw
The fact of the matter is, it can be shown that NDE's occur even during complete brain death and up to hours later.

So how can this be "shown"?


EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
Number one, whether or not someone is determined as clinically dead is irrelevant because I'm not making the argument that NDE's show that people have "died" and moved on. Rather I'm using them to show that consciousness is not dependent upon brain activity and that the soul exists independent of the body. If a persons physical body has been severely damaged to the point where the soul can no longer use that body they will never recover that body, the soul will move on. But instances where accidents occur before a persons time is up here on this planet and the body is still fit for recovery that soul may be permitted or even encouraged to continue their experience within that body.
And the key feature of an NDE is that they occur after a person has "flatlined", in other words no longer show signs of heart or brain activity. There's a great documentary series called "I Survived...Beyond and Back" which gives detailed accounts of NDE's and the correlating medical facts and even Doctor statements in relation to each case. Even if you scoff at the testimonials one is forced to recognize the medical statistics that support the facts of each occurrence, so I would recommend setting aside some time to at least watch the program. This is not the only series either there are more but this one I like because it's un-biased and it gives you the medical facts behind the testimonies.

The fact of the matter is, it can be shown that NDE's occur even during complete brain death and up to hours later.

So how can this be "shown"?

You can start by watching the documentary above, or you can research it yourself.

"FLATLINE Neurology A popular term for a complete lack of cerebral activity as measured by EEG, a finding equated with 'brain death'."
"Medical Definition of flatline 1 : to register on an electronic monitor as having no heartbeat or brain waves : to experience cessation of heart contractions or brain wave activity as indicated by a flat line on a electrocardiogram or electroencephalogram"
"To show a horizontal line on the monitor of an electrocardiogram or an electroencephalogram, indicating no electrical activity."
"A flatline is an electrical time sequence measurement that shows no activity and therefore, when represented, shows a flat line instead of a moving one. It almost always refers to either a flatlined electrocardiogram, where the heart shows no electrical activity (asystole), or to a flat electroencephalogram, in which the brain shows no electrical activity (brain death). Both of these specific cases are involved in various definitions of death."

"People Have Near-Death Experiences While Brain Dead"
"three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function."

When all of Pam's vital signs were stopped, the doctor turned on a surgical saw and began to cut through Pam's skull. While this was going on, Pam reported that she felt herself "pop" outside her body and hover above the operating table. Then she watched the doctors working on her lifeless body for awhile. From her out-of-body position, she observed the doctor sawing into her skull with what looked to her like an electric toothbrush. Pam heard and reported later what the nurses in the operating room had said and exactly what was happening during the operation. At this time, every monitor attached to Pam's body registered "no life" whatsoever."

"Current research contends the strongest lines of evidence supporting the veracity of the near-death experience remain OBEs, NDEs in the congenitally blind, and those which occur under general anesthesia, and during cardiac arrest. Each of these lines of reasoning arrive at the same postulate to explain NDE’s: that heightened, lucid consciousness occurs when the heart stops beating, the brain demonstrates no measurable activity or function, and breathing ceases. NDEs which occur during cardiac arrest however, remain the closest model of the process of dying, and are considered the most objective and scientific method to study brain, mind, and consciousness at a time of clinical death. This is because from a biological standpoint, cardiac arrest is the same as clinical death, or “flatline”. The medical community uses these terms interchangeably.

Clinical death has traditionally been defined when three biological parameters are met; there is no heartbeat, there is no breathing, and there is no brain function-this is determined when a light is shone into the eyes and there are fixed, dilated pupils which indicate a lack of brain stem activity.  Death, as indicated from the above three parameters, follows very quickly from the moment when the heart stops beating.  This is due to a lack of blood flow into the vital organs including the brain itself."

"EEG Expert Can’t Explain Near Death Experience Data… and, Dr. Penny Sartori Finds More Than Hallucinations in NDE Accounts"
"For near death experience skeptics, medical evidence of a flat EEG during an out of body experience has always been a stumbling block."

"Near-death experiences are one of the most puzzling phenomena in psychology. A near-death experience is when a person appears to be clinically ‘dead’ for a short period—when their heart stops beating, their brain registers no sign of activity, and the other vital signs indicate death—and yet they report a continuation of consciousness."

"Some People Were Dead For Several Days"

"Dannion Brinkley had a near-death experience (NDE) that lasted 28 minutes."

"CRYSTAL-CLEAR CONSCIOUSNESS. The level of conscious alertness during NDEs is usually greater than that experienced in everyday life - even though NDEs generally occur when a person is unconscious or clinically dead. This high level of consciousness while physically unconscious is medically unexplained. Additionally, the elements in NDEs generally follow the same consistent and logical order in all age groups and around the world, which refutes the possibility that NDEs have any relation to dreams or hallucinations."

"NDEs by the Numbers Near-death experiences (NDEs) are reported by an estimated 200,000 Americans a year, and studies around the world suggest NDEs are a common human experience."
"Up to 2005, 95% of world cultures are known to have made some mention of NDEs."
"the most popular interpretation is that the NDE is exactly what it appears to be to the person having the experience". The NDE would then represent evidence of the supposedly immaterial existence of a soul or mind, which would leave the body upon death. An NDE would then provide information about an immaterial world where the soul would journey upon ending its existence on earth."

"NDEs Absolutely, Positively NOT Caused By Malfunctioning Brains"

“The most reasonable neuroscientific explanation of NDEs, the one that accounts best for all the data, is that NDEs are not a product of brain activity at all. They result, instead, from the removal of the brain’s filtering activity."

“The sheer volume of evidence for survival after death is so immense that to ignore it is like standing at the foot of Mount Everest and insisting that you cannot see the mountain.”

“No one physiological or psychological model by itself explains all the common features of NDE. The paradoxical occurrence of heightened, lucid awareness and logical thought processes during a period of impaired cerebral perfusion raises particular perplexing questions for our current understanding of consciousness and its relation to brain function. A clear sensorium and complex perceptual processes during a period of apparent clinical death challenge the concept that consciousness is localized exclusively in the brain."

"Near-death experiences have been well documented all over the world. They do not seem to be culturally motivated nor do they have bias when it comes to age or gender."
"The International Association for Near-Death Studies says: “Every day in the U.S. 800 near-death experiences occur.”
"Around 85% of the people who experienced near-death states say that their lives were forever changed by the experience. These changes can have a profound positive effect on the individual.
Psychological changes include no longer having a fear of death, and becoming more spiritual rather than religious and having increased psychic abilities.  They are known to become engaged in abstract thinking, that on a philosophical level."







EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
"Why an NDE can be scientifically verified" 
"Since NDE experiences often happen in hospital settings with professional medical oversight, thousands of NDEs have been sufficiently well-documented for scientific study.

A near death experience occurs when someone has limited brain function, yet is able to have a sensory experience without full use of their physical senses.

But scientifically speaking, what is considered a near death experience?

According to the strict science of near-death experiences, a person must have a flat EEG (electroencephalogram) indicating an absence of electrical activity in the cerebral cortex (generating higher cerebral functioning), the absence of gag reflex, and fixed and dilated pupils, indicating a significant reduction of lower brain functioning.

In this state, sensory organs are non-functional, both in themselves, and in the brain’s capacity to process their signals. Furthermore, higher cerebral functions such as thinking, processing memories, and linguistic functions are either completely absent or reduced to insignificant."

"Despite the inability to process sensory information (see above), patients describe events, feelings, and sensations—it is these experiences that we categorize as “near death experiences”."

n8nrgmi
n8nrgmi's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,499
3
2
3
n8nrgmi's avatar
n8nrgmi
3
2
3
you just casually force the point that it's common for people hallucinate afterlife stories when they die. that's the only alternative theory to people seeing the afterlife with NDEs. they did meet the clinical definition of death, so it's accurate to say they died. but even if it's just a technical point that they died or it was just close to death, it's all the same difference. you have no explanation for why people at that of death just happen to hallucinate after life stories so commonly. don't you concede that it's strange? and it's not a dream, because everyone who has the experience says they aren't the same and that the experience is more real than this life and like another dimension. but even if it was like a dream, you have no explanation for why people would just so commonly hallucinate afterlife dreams when they're dying. it's just a stupid argument. maybe, just maybe, since they were technically dead, and they said they saw the afterlife.... that they did die and see the afterlife - that's the most straightforward way of looking at it. 

you just ignore the out of body research. when you ask people to describe what they saw out of body, they are almost accurate. this isn't the case when you ask people to guess what happened when they didn't have an out of body experience. you ignore the AWARE study and other studies that have demonstrated examples of things being verified from out of body experiences. you just choose to ignore it all even though it's objective evidence that contradicts your view. 

you ignore that people almost always see dead people in their NDE, when if they were hallucinating they should be seeing living people very often too. you have no explanation for why this is the case. i dont know why they rarely see living people... maybe they did hallucainte that, but the fact that the vast majority see someone dead shows that it's strange they aren't seeing living people too. it's objective evidence for the authenticity of the argument for an afterlife experience that directly contradicts your view. 

zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,223
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@EtrnlVw
A lot to consider.

But nonetheless, nothing to affect the bottom line.... Death is Death.

ND and subsequent recovery is not death.

And "hours later" was left a grey area....As autolysis is a rapid and almost instantaneous process that occurs after actual  death.


So an NDE is just that, and may be a normal physiological response in ND situations.....
EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@zedvictor4
A lot to consider.

Well that's all one could hope for. 

But nonetheless, nothing to affect the bottom line.... Death is Death.

Actually the whole point of this is show that's not the bottom line lol. 

ND and subsequent recovery is not death.

Did you read my post? Whether or not you consider it a real death is irrelevant. The point is to show that consciousness is not dependent upon a brain or brain activity. Even though an NDE is basically a temporary "death" I'm not really going to argue that. It's pointless to a guy like you who will just say "it's not really death". 

And "hours later" was left a grey area....As autolysis is a rapid and almost instantaneous process that occurs after actual  death.

Do you understand that a NDE is consciousness traveling freely outside the physical body? no longer confined by the domain of the brain? 

So an NDE is just that, and may be a normal physiological response in ND situations.....

This is not a "physiological response", it is a clear experience of consciousness outside the body. Call it an OBE if you're feeling reluctant about  NDE terminology. The point here, is that we have a clear proposition (soul) and obvious correlating evidence that supports the proposition. I can't make you accept something so obvious but I didn't think you would anyways. That's how we roll around here, nobody comes here to change their views. 


EtrnlVw
EtrnlVw's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,869
3
3
5
EtrnlVw's avatar
EtrnlVw
3
3
5
-->
@n8nrgmi
 you have no explanation for why people at that of death just happen to hallucinate after life stories 

Just so we're on the same page here, NDE's are not hallucinations (not saying you believe that). Hallucinations are a malfunction of consciousness, an aberration of what is actually happening. NDE's are clear conscious experiences that are based on reality not faulty perception of something false. The only people asserting NDE's are "probably" some sort of "hallucinations" are those who don't think there's an afterlife experience and those who never had that experience. They call them hallucinations because they've made up their silly minds that consciousness can only be observed through human earthly bodies.
Hallucinations are not clearly depicted, clearly articulated and understood conscious experiences. That's because they are either triggered by chemical processes or a malfunction of the brain itself. NDE's do not fall into that scenario, they are observations outside the body and confines of the brain and they are very actual encounters of crystal clear conscious experience.
Just like when you visit another location or go on vacation somewhere, you're simply experiencing that location by leaving your current residence....when the soul detaches from the physical body it's like you experiencing another plane of reality, and you are actually there observing what it is that exists elsewhere. When you die, your conscious being simply moves to another level of creation, nothing changes except you leave your physical body behind. And really, that physical body was nothing but a vehicle that you temporarily used to interact within this word. Once that vehicle can no longer be used it's gone but you still exist.

FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,087
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@EtrnlVw

Maybe NDE's only occur in people with numerous brain lesions. In a recent prejudicially skeptical review, Mobbs and Watt (2011) provided a synthetic outline of possible neurobiological mechanisms of NDEs, concluding that there is nothing paranormal about them. This statement implies a clear-cut incompatibility between science and parapsychology, which is at least partly questionable. In fact, parapsychology may be defined as the study of physical phenomena beyond those presently understandable (Morris, 2001)—a matter that in itself does not imply any incompatibility with science and its methodologies. Instead, it only tracks the border between what is actually known/understandable and what is still to be understood/redefined, while facts by themselves can only be true or false, not paranormal. 

zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,223
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@EtrnlVw
Maybe that's just what you want to believe.

How does a dead person recount tales of an afterlife experience?........ALE

Because that's what you are actually trying to say......But what you are saying never quite adds up.

ND is not dead....To recount an experience a person must recover...Therefore an ND person, no matter how minimal their function and living processes might be, is still capable of producing dream like experiences or hallucinations.

So depending upon how one chooses to interpret the evidence, it's never going to be possible to pin down a living answer....So we will have to wait until we die.

Hopefully you won't be disappointed.




FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 5,087
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8

I had a OBE when I was in college and took LSD. I never had one since.

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the Age of Aquarius
Age of Aquarius
Aquarius
Aquarius