Colin Kapernick: A F**king Coward

Author: Vader

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@Vader
Liberals take one line and skew it the opposite of what it is meant to say
It’s a shame. It’s just like the flag burning case which was ruled as protected speech under the first amendment. I personally disagree but the solution to that is passing a constitutional amendment which the nation tried but failed. Just because you can do it doesn’t mean you should do it.
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@Greyparrot
Those same athletes wouldn't think twice about kneeling during the Chinese anthem.
They gotta be careful of their overseers
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@ILikePie5

New country needs a new Anthem. Preferably with a Latin beat.
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@Greyparrot
New country needs a new Anthem. Preferably with a Latin beat.
China Joe or China Collin

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@Vader
Liberals take one line and skew it the opposite of what it is meant to say

I drove a truck through your argument and you did not even acknowledge it.  

Can you admit that if your issue is about 9/11 you have no evidence that CK did anything egregious?



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@CaptainSceptic
His premise was that kneeling was a sign of disrespect towards people who died. If you disagree that kneeling isn’t fundamentally disrespectful then that’s your opinion. An opinion common to many liberals who think America is inherently broken and requires more government to fix
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@CaptainSceptic
I have my response ready but I’m not on my computer for you to post it. At least you can make reasonable arguments. Your friend Nemriff just takes everything I say out of context and you do the same thing
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@ILikePie5
If you burn the flag you should go back to China to see how that goes with them. Better yet move. Lets see if you get the freedom to do that somewhere else
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@ILikePie5
If Colin Kaepernick did what he did in 2019 with Nike but in 2016 and didn’t kneel, I honestly would have no problem 

He’s always playing himself as a martyr more than anything. I genuinely don’t believe he wants to play in the league, and instead make himself as a martyr. Even SAS agreed with me on this
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@Vader
No ones gonna hire him cause he’s gonna make the team lose revenue. Believe it or not kneeling during the national anthem isn’t popular.
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@ILikePie5
That is NOT what he said.   I would recommend you re-read the entire thread and my responses.

This was not about "disrespect".   or disagreement.  
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@CaptainSceptic
That is NOT what he said. I would recommend you re-read the entire thread and my responses.

This was not about "disrespect".   or disagreement. 
“By kneeling in the national anthem, you are disrespecting the soldiers who have fought for our country.” —SupaDudz

Not about disrespecting huh? Instead of trying to misconstrue his premise by attacking everything that cane after, attack the original statement. What part of the thing I quoted is wrong?
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@ILikePie5
You are not reflecting on the issue that I was conversing about.

Read his threads and my responses, and feel free to comment from an informed position.


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@CaptainSceptic
You are not reflecting on the issue that I was conversing about.
What you are conversing about is irrelevant to his contention. His contention is what I quoted. If you disagree with it state why instead of taking subsequent comments out of context and commenting on them.
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@ILikePie5
What you are conversing about is irrelevant to his contention. His contention is what I quoted. If you disagree with it state why instead of taking subsequent comments out of context and commenting on them.
+1
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@ILikePie5
He never said it should be illegal. It’s not fascist to say it’s disrespectful to kneel during the national anthem. Everyone knows he has the right to do. Doesn’t mean he should.
The fact he has the right to do so is something that has nothing to do with anyone's belief and says nothing about them. His words stated that the act of disrespecting the nation and/or military is wrong is hyper nationalist and totally blind to what nations and militaries can and have routinely done. It is the hypernationalism which is the hallmark of fascism. Fascism was an ideology before it came into power and was able to effect law. Being a fascist does not necessitate being from a fascist country with fascist laws.


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@Vader
I don't look to punish Colin Kaepernick is the difference. I said that in the line after that. So I see no point in arguing with someone who takes one line out of context
the line:

An authoritarian society would punish you for doing that. What Kaepernick did was disrespectful, not illegal. Big difference. Yet again misinterpreting what I say
do tell me, what was the context?
what was the point of telling me how it would turn out in an authoritarian society if you were not trying to say that the same action should be punished here?
he was protesting the government, and according to you that is wrong. That thinking is fascist. Fascism is an ideology before it becomes capable of enforcing it. Hypernationalism is fascism's defining feature. And blind vilification of any "disrespect" show to the government is hypernationalist.

btw, do you usually defend actions by saying "An authoritarian society would punish you for doing that?"
What does that prove?

You also continue to dodge the question of how the national anthem is tied specifically to the military.
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@Nemiroff
You’re really telling me it’s fascist to say we should stand for our national anthem? Shame.
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@ILikePie5
Thats some twisted wording.
It's not fascist to say he should stand, but it is fascist to say he must stand, no matter what, or face punishment. Including social ostracizing, which is what the opening post consisted of, a barrage of personal attacks on the actor.
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@Nemiroff
Again. I don't apply it should be illegal. I say that Colin Kaeprernick is being disrespectful. He SHOULD stand for the flag. My statement is the same. Stop twisting my words to sound like I'm a fascist dictator
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@Nemiroff
The line doesn't imply I am supporting an authoritarian society, it says that in a authoritarian society, he would have been punished. I then said I do not believe it should be punishable, but I believe it's disrespectful
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1.  If CK did not show up, you do not know what he did in private.  You just don't know.
This is a fair point. But this is about a public appearance. He is a public figure. His actions he does in public are what someone is known for. Privacy isn't broadcasted. It's what played out publicly, and that's the point
2.  If it was soo offensive and egregious, why don't you know the names of the "many players" that kneeled?
Michael Bennett, the 49ers players. There are others. I am not your resource guide
Resenting and saying you do not like or have some hate for, are VERY different.  I resent my wife for always banging the car up.  That does not mean I do not like her, or that I have any hate for her.  It's a pain in the ass she can't open her fucking eyes, and I have to deal with it.....   very different. 
Resementment=feel bitterness or indignation at (a circumstance, action, or person).
Using this definition, I am resenting an action that Colin Kaepernick did. You say that I resent African Americans or their cause. This is not true. I resent the action, not the cause or the people. And I am not bitter about Colin Kaepernick.

Bitter= (of people or their feelings or behavior) angry, hurt, or resentful because of one's bad experiences or a sense of unjust treatment.

I did not have a bad experience with him. I simply disagree. Your definition you are using to define bitter is not what I feel. I believe what he did was disrespectful


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@CaptainSceptic
Above, I forgot to tag
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@Vader
It appears as if there is a double standard.  Perhaps I am wrong.  I am trying to reconcile what you are saying.  My objective is not to have you agree with me.  It is me understanding what your issue is.  

You took a reservation with CK's conduct for a few reasons.

1.  You felt it offensive to military
2.  You though it as egregious during 9/11,  even though he was not in the public eye.
3.  You do not know the names of all the other players who took the same protest.

Why is it not egregious for some, yet egregious for CK?

If you look at the history of the protests, you will get a better understanding of the process.

CK first started by sitting out of the national anthems in preseason games.  He then had conversations with Nate Boyer, a veteran and former long snapper for the Seahawks.  After those conversations, he decided to participate in the National Anthem but kneeled instead.  Others from various teams either kneeled or held up a fist as a sign of protest.

Let's remember the exact time when the protests started.  It was a combination of factors. Public black youths being killed, white supremacy on the rise with Donald Trump being the nominee (.i.e. the support from noted white supremacists Richard Spencer)  are all contributing factors.   It has to be noted that the flag was not designed to represent the troops or the police.  It represents the 50 states, originally the 13 colonies, founded not the premise, that "all men are created equal".  That is what the flag represents,  All mean created equal.

His exact quote after refusing to participate in the August 2016 pre-season anthem  was

"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color."

So let's look at that.   Regardless of if you agree with his deduction that the US oppresses black people and people of color,  CK still has the right to protest.  The entire premise and history of the US coming to be was based on protest.  Often attributed to the "Boston Tea Party".

So why do we call CK out, for exercising his right, a right that the entire foundation of the country is based on?  Why is your topic not "anyone who disagrees or desecrates the flag is a fucking idiot".  Why is it CK?

If this is about the right to burn the flag, or desecrate it, or challenging the 1989 case of Texas v. Johnson,  then that is a different story.  However, it is not.  It appears to be a targetted attack at one person, without showing any foundation.

And that is your right.  If you just want to say,  Fuck off, its what I think, I will respond, well that is your right, and I would defend you against anyone who challenged that.




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@Vader
Again. I don't apply it should be illegal. I say that Colin Kaeprernick is being disrespectful. He SHOULD stand for the flag. My statement is the same. Stop twisting my words to sound like I'm a fascist dictator
I am not accusing you of being the dictator, i am accusing you of being the crowd supporting the dictator and his policies. There are many authoitarian regimes, the point of mentioning fascism is, again, the hypernationalism that puts the nation above criticism.

The line doesn't imply I am supporting an authoritarian society, it says that in a authoritarian society, he would have been punished. I then said I do not believe it should be punishable, but I believe it's disrespectful.
If your criticism was that kapernick was protesting something that did not deserve protest, thats a discussion. But if you say he should be ostracized (a punishment) for peacefully protest the anthem for any reason (which is what you said)... that is fascism. 

You still did not answer what you intended to prove by comparing our events to how an authoritarian society would do. Generally if an authortiarian society would do something, the opposite is better. 

Your argument rests on a direct connection between the national anthem and the military, yet despite repeated requests, you are not explaining this connection.

America was built on disrespecting your nation (Britian), and the right of citizens to protest, criticize, and resist the nation. Blind love of America, and putting it beyond criticism (fascism) is the most UnAmerican thing you can do. If something cannot be criticized, it will never improve.
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@Nemiroff
Again. I don't apply it should be illegal. I say that Colin Kaeprernick is being disrespectful. He SHOULD stand for the flag. My statement is the same. Stop twisting my words to sound like I'm a fascist dictator
I am not accusing you of being the dictator, i am accusing you of being the crowd supporting the dictator and his policies. There are many authoitarian regimes, the point of mentioning fascism is, again, the hypernationalism that puts the nation above criticism.
"Your loyalist, fascist, mentality is what is disrespectful to our soldiers, and our nation."

You accused me of being a fascist. I poked holes in that. Now you say that you didn't say that. You clearly said that my mentality is fascist. If your way of thinking is fascist, you then identify yourself as a fascist. Simple. I never said that you called me a dictator. You said that I have a fascist mentality, which I responded which my claim that doing what CK did should not be punishable

The line doesn't imply I am supporting an authoritarian society, it says that in a authoritarian society, he would have been punished. I then said I do not believe it should be punishable, but I believe it's disrespectful.
If your criticism was that kapernick was protesting something that did not deserve protest, thats a discussion. But if you say he should be ostracized (a punishment) for peacefully protest the anthem for any reason (which is what you said)... that is fascism. 
I never stated he himself should be ostracized from the league. I never said he doesn't deserve a job in the NFL. I simply think it is disrespectful
Your argument rests on a direct connection between the national anthem and the military, yet despite repeated requests, you are not explaining this connection.
It's intended purpose in 1931 according to Mark Clague “Professional sports needed to define themselves as patriotic in order to be seen as as part of the war on the home front and center for morale rather than as an expendable entertainment which is how they were initially,”

Smithsonian states the anthem was "The music was a hit in America. A patriotic song, "Adams and Liberty" (later changed to "Jefferson and Liberty"), adopted the tune, which was also used for a song celebrating the naval war against Barbary pirates, early in the 19th century: "When the warrior returns, from the battle afar, To the home and the country he nobly defended...." And who had written that? Francis Scott Key."

The National Anthem is for respecting the soldiers who have died for our battle of freedom. If you have issues, you can protest these issues in an environment that does not directly relate to the death of soldiers who fought for our freedom. The anthem represents freedom, but who fought for the freedom? It was the soldiers. The anthem is a sense of patriotism for our nation, and to show gratitude for the people who helped us express our issue and peacefully protest. The anthem represents to wars that were thought in this verse

"O’er the ramparts we watch’d were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there,"

This verse in the anthem has nothing to do with the expression of injustice. It is a way to honor the military who have fought hard for our country in the first place. Hadn't they fought for our freedom, we would be under a Nazi rule where we would have no freedom of expression, and Colin Kapernick would be dead. Without the military protecting us, allowing us to protest, we would not have these rights. 

These lines I represents show the long hours and the bombings. This is an element of the military, which Colin Kapernick still kneeled for, a sign of disrespect
America was built on disrespecting your nation (Britian), and the right of citizens to protest, criticize, and resist the nation. Blind love of America, and putting it beyond criticism (fascism) is the most UnAmerican thing you can do. If something cannot be criticized, it will never improve.
So you want to disrespect the soldiers who helped you fight to speak freely? Disrespect Trump all you want but you really want to disrespect our fallen troops who died so you can talk about the issue in our society

So you have no respect for the soldiers. Good to know
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@CaptainSceptic

1.  You felt it offensive to military
Disrespectful
2.  You though it as egregious during 9/11,  even though he was not in the public eye.
It was egregious not to play during 9/11. Him sitting out shows he would have planned to kneel during the ceremony, and he did not want to face the scrutiny, and decided to sit out
3.  You do not know the names of all the other players who took the same protest.
Why is it not egregious for some, yet egregious for CK?
I don't. Why should it matter. It is egregious for all of them. 

Let's remember the exact time when the protests started.  It was a combination of factors. Public black youths being killed, white supremacy on the rise with Donald Trump being the nominee (.i.e. the support from noted white supremacists Richard Spencer)  are all contributing factors.   
So let's just blame Trump for cops killing people and that gives us an excuse for disrespecting the troops
It has to be noted that the flag was not designed to represent the troops or the police.  It represents the 50 states, originally the 13 colonies, founded not the premise, that "all men are created equal".  That is what the flag represents,  All mean created equal.
The anthem sung represents the military and the brave men that fought. The ceremony in 1931 was used to honor the troops fallen and drive patriotism in the country by honoring the troops. The national anthem itself has lines referring to the battles that happened and how the flag stood strong despite the wars fought. A reference to the troops itself

So let's look at that.   Regardless of if you agree with his deduction that the US oppresses black people and people of color,  CK still has the right to protest. 
I never said he didn't have the right to, I'm saying it is disrespectful to do it during the national anthem

So why do we call CK out, for exercising his right, a right that the entire foundation of the country is based on?  Why is your topic not "anyone who disagrees or desecrates the flag is a fucking idiot".  Why is it CK?
They are also idiots too. Fucking horrendous idiots. This is not what my post is about. My post is saying that what CK did is direspectful. The premise is not on burning the flag. That is a seperate premise. I am having a debate with you whether what CK is disrespectful, not if burning the flag is disrespectful

And that is your right.  If you just want to say,  Fuck off, its what I think, I will respond, well that is your right, and I would defend you against anyone who challenged that.
I'd do the same thing as well. The point here?



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@Vader

I have tried to show you respect and given you ways out.  I have even said how I defend you.  Unfortunately, you want to double down on nonsense.

You state that  Ck sitting out:

shows he would have planned to kneel during the ceremony,
You don't know that.  You don't even know, because you were not there and did not ask him.  You are making shit up to defend yourself, and you just don't know.  You did not even qualify your answer, you stated it as a fact.  As a famous, yet unnamed, orange creature would say "fake news". 

I am, but a 10th of the way through your response, and you already lose credibility.

You then state in response to the question about why would you highlight CK ad not the others who protested,

I don't. Why should it matter. It is egregious for all of them. 

It does matter.  You entire premise is based on conduct that is egregious.  You give no reason to highlight CK and he was not even there.  Your premise is based on a supposition on why CK did not attend.  You have no idea the names of the other players.... because you say it does not matter.  Why does it matter for CK?

Your next retort is not helpful.  Trump had not been elected.  He was the nominee as I stated.  At the time and up for the following 18 months there was a much higher level of white supremacists narrative.    I never said Trump was the cause.  Trump's own words ad Spencers endorsement did not help.  combined with publicity on some black youths being killed by cops, in questionable circumstances did not help the social narrative of the time.

Next, you tie yourself in a logical know.  You say at one point the anthem is about the brave "men" who fought.  If you are defending the rights of the military and their honor why are you sexist about it?    The troop death on the day of 9/11 is a handful.  Al horrifically caused by heinous acts.  However, there were collectively thousands of fathers, mothers, children, civil servants, public servants killed.   

You misrepresent what the flag is, what 9/11 is, and what the national anthem is for.  You draw baseless conclusions about why CK did not show up.  Your concern for others that acted in an "egregious manner" is summed up by a "yeah well they were bad."

You are focusing on CK, who was not even present and calling him a Fcking idiot.  You do not respect his right to protest (if that is what he was doing, but we do not know that because he was not in public and made no comments about why he was not present).

In your misplaced cloud of patriotism, you cast an enormous tarp of justification and unqualified censorship, failing to recognize that even when people disagree with you, defending their right to disagree is more important than trying to censor them for not agreeing.

The title and your narrative still strongly suggest an individual issue with CK rather than a border issue with the behavior.



Side note:  The anthem is actually about part of the war of 1812).    While Britain did end up burning down the Whitehouse, that particular battle was in favour of the new country US, 15 states at t the time.  
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@CaptainSceptic
I have tried to show you respect and given you ways out.  I have even said how I defend you.  Unfortunately, you want to double down on nonsense.

You state that  Ck sitting out:

shows he would have planned to kneel during the ceremony,
You don't know that.  You don't even know, because you were not there and did not ask him.  You are making shit up to defend yourself, and you just don't know.  You did not even qualify your answer, you stated it as a fact.  As a famous, yet unnamed, orange creature would say "fake news". 
Then why would he not play on 9/11. What could be the reason? What's one logical reason he would sit out during 9/1?  I am also to make assumptions based on past evidence and using my overall. You can safely assume the reason why something happened is because of a certain reason. The reason is that he was planning to kneel. He wasn't injured when he decided to sit out. Stop with this nonsense
I am, but a 10th of the way through your response, and you already lose credibility.
Nice credibility attack. 
You then state in response to the question about why would you highlight CK ad not the others who protested,

I don't. Why should it matter. It is egregious for all of them. 

It does matter.  You entire premise is based on conduct that is egregious.  You give no reason to highlight CK and he was not even there.  Your premise is based on a supposition on why CK did not attend.  You have no idea the names of the other players.... because you say it does not matter.  Why does it matter for CK?
I am highlighting his overall actions he did during the time-frame. You focus on 9/11 and have that same delusion. You're argument is full of delusion saying I'm focusing on 9/11. I am not listening to this argument anymore because you don't understand and just dismiss it.
Next, you tie yourself in a logical know.  You say at one point the anthem is about the brave "men" who fought.  If you are defending the rights of the military and their honor why are you sexist about it?   
Is this a joke? Sexist
The troop death on the day of 9/11 is a handful.  Al horrifically caused by heinous acts.  However, there were collectively thousands of fathers, mothers, children, civil servants, public servants killed.   
We honor all the people that died in 9/11. We honor those as well when we remember 9/11. What's your point
You misrepresent what the flag is, what 9/11 is, and what the national anthem is for.  You draw baseless conclusions about why CK did not show up.  Your concern for others that acted in an "egregious manner" is summed up by a "yeah well they were bad."

You are focusing on CK, who was not even present and calling him a Fcking idiot.  You do not respect his right to protest (if that is what he was doing, but we do not know that because he was not in public and made no comments about why he was not present).

In your misplaced cloud of patriotism, you cast an enormous tarp of justification and unqualified censorship, failing to recognize that even when people disagree with you, defending their right to disagree is more important than trying to censor them for not agreeing.

The title and your narrative still strongly suggest an individual issue with CK rather than a border issue with the behavior.

I am done arguing with you about this matter. You have only come to hasty generalizations about my topic and have gotten off track of the topic. My generalization is an assumption reasonable to make. This is not a 9/11 argument overall. I did not say CK shouldn't protest, but the way he went about kneeling is disrespectful. You throw that argument out of the window and just tie back to one evidence of 9/11, ignoring all the evidence made. This is about kneeling, not his act during 9/11. You completely twisted my words in a way. I have said it multiple times that I have a problem with the protest, yet you say I have a personal vendetta. This is wrong

Have fun making generalizations about my argument. You clearly don't understand my point

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@Vader
You accused me of being a fascist. I poked holes in that. Now you say that you didn't say that. You clearly said that my mentality is fascist. If your way of thinking is fascist, you then identify yourself as a fascist.
I didn't say i didn't call you a fascist, i defined fascist, or at least its defining characteristic. Hypernationalism. which i bolded several times. There was no walk back. Your extreme patriotism and loyalism is fascism. Love thy nation does not mean you have to think your nation is perfect and beyond improvement.

I never stated he himself should be ostracized from the league. I never said he doesn't deserve a job in the NFL. I simply think it is disrespectful
You didn't simply *judge his actions* as "disrespectful." 
You *judged his person* as "a f--king coward" and "a bitch." All within the first post.
And nobody mentioned the league. 

It's intended purpose in 1931 according to Mark Clague “Professional sports needed to define themselves as patriotic in order to be seen as as part of the war on the home front and center for morale rather than as an expendable entertainment which is how they were initially,”

Smithsonian states the anthem was "The music was a hit in America. A patriotic song, "Adams and Liberty" (later changed to "Jefferson and Liberty"), adopted the tune, which was also used for a song celebrating the naval war against Barbary pirates, early in the 19th century: "When the warrior returns, from the battle afar, To the home and the country he nobly defended...." And who had written that? Francis Scott Key."

The National Anthem is for respecting the soldiers who have died for our battle of freedom. If you have issues, you can protest these issues in an environment that does not directly relate to the death of soldiers who fought for our freedom.
I dont know who that guy is, but neither sports or the anthem were invented in 1931. The fact that a song that was inspired by the anthem (and not the anthem itself) was used in celebration of a single naval battle against some pirates is completely irrelevant. Its a song of how proud we are of the perseverance of our *rebellion* against authority, in the name of freedom.

These are some LOOSE connections my friend.

"O’er the ramparts we watch’d were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there,"
This verse in the anthem has nothing to do with the expression of injustice. It is a way to honor the military who have fought hard for our country in the first place. Hadn't they fought for our freedom, we would be under a Nazi rule where we would have no freedom of expression, and Colin Kapernick would be dead. Without the military protecting us, allowing us to protest, we would not have these rights. 

These lines I represents show the long hours and the bombings. This is an element of the military, which Colin Kapernick still kneeled for, a sign of disrespect
These lines represent the military of an enemy nation, our own previous nation that refused to listen to our pleas and demanded we swear allegiance to them without question. No.

You are completely twisting the meaning of that verse. The injustice already happened. This verse immortalizes our survival of our oppressor's wrath, and eventual triumph.

So you want to disrespect the soldiers who helped you fight to speak freely? Disrespect Trump all you want but you really want to disrespect our fallen troops who died so you can talk about the issue in our society

So you have no respect for the soldiers. Good to know
What im trying to explain to you is that neither i nor Kaepernick disrespected any soldier. The anthem has nothing to do with the military. Indeed one can say that by trying to falsely use their sacrifice as a way to score a debate point, the only one disrespecting soldiers here is you.