New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard to be first transgender athlete to compete at Olympics

Author: bronskibeat

Posts

Total: 79
bronskibeat
bronskibeat's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 53
0
1
4
bronskibeat's avatar
bronskibeat
0
1
4
"WELLINGTON, New Zealand -- Weightlifter Laurel Hubbard will be the first transgender athlete to compete at the Olympics.
Hubbard was among five weightlifters confirmed Monday in New Zealand's team for Tokyo. At 43, she will also be the oldest weightlifter at the games, and will be ranked fourth in the competition on Aug. 2 for women 87 kilograms (192 pounds) and over."

RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 555
Posts: 19,353
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
I've spoken about this for months, it's so wrong.
bronskibeat
bronskibeat's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 53
0
1
4
bronskibeat's avatar
bronskibeat
0
1
4
-->
@RationalMadman
I get why people have a negative reaction to trans people competing in sports. Superficially, a negative reaction makes sense. But upon further research, I think trans women competing with cis women is fine as long as they fall within the regulations.
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 3,205
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@bronskibeat
Care to elaborate why you think it's fine?
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 555
Posts: 19,353
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@bronskibeat
Oh you support it??? Fuck off then. It's not even a debate in my eyes this is fucking wrong. 
bronskibeat
bronskibeat's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 53
0
1
4
bronskibeat's avatar
bronskibeat
0
1
4
-->
@Lemming
Sure. I believe that trans-women who are on HRT (hormone replacement therapy), and have testosterone levels similar to or lower than that of what is allowed/expected for cis women, should be allowed to compete. I think that’s fair.

It’s important to point out: Most professional sports have very strong regulations that target hormones, there are cis women who have been kept out of competitions for having higher than allowed testosterone levels (that they produced naturally). Some might say that the regulations are too strict, but that’s another conversation and not one I’ve looked too deeply into.

A common argument against trans-women competing in women’s sports is in-regards to bone density. The idea being that the bone-density gains obtained pre-HRT don’t go away post-HRT. It’s a bit of a weird argument, because bone-density varies greatly through-out many different demographics not necessarily always aligned with gender/sex. For example, the average bone-density of African-American women is comparable to that of white males (http://courses.washington.edu/bonephys/opbmd.html). 

Multiple studies show that trans women have a high prevalence of low bone mass compared to men:
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs12018-019-09261-3

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230706285_Long-Term_Evaluation_of_Cross-Sex_Hormone_Treatment_in_Transsexual_Persons

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1094695008005015

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/cen.13607?casa_token=7FEI23bFTPgAAAAA%3A0wOlgCmTEeIWlpQcDsqyN3cucpW5Iet6AbZVj3nOFSw2sl-GjycLMR5h5eJaAxvqG9wlwtQSXeqRnRRE

Another useful finding:

This study concludes that trans athletes maintain their skill level relative to the gender they competed against. For example, if a trans-woman competed against men before they transitioned, and performed excellently. They would also perform excellently post-transition against women. But if they were at the 50% mark pre-transition against men, then they would be at the 50% mark post-transition against women: http://xpuz.sportsci.org/2016/WCPASabstracts/ID-1699.pdf

I’ll stop there for now. I’m open to opposing arguments, but I do think this is a discussion that requires a lot of nuance and less generalizations. The stance that no trans-women being allowed to compete makes less sense to me than certain trans-women should be allowed to compete as long as they meet the right criteria.
bronskibeat
bronskibeat's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 53
0
1
4
bronskibeat's avatar
bronskibeat
0
1
4
-->
@RationalMadman
Love you too, bro.
MisterChris
MisterChris's avatar
Debates: 45
Posts: 2,897
5
10
11
MisterChris's avatar
MisterChris
5
10
11
Grown man competing against women. Sad. 
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,332
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@MisterChris
I wonder why it’s never the other way around? It’s just like USA Women’s Soccer Team. Can’t even beat a bunch of 15 year old dudes while demanding higher pay.
ILikePie5
ILikePie5's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 12,332
3
7
10
ILikePie5's avatar
ILikePie5
3
7
10
-->
@bronskibeat
You’re not considering bone structures that are different for men and women. No amount of hormones can change your birth bone structures without affecting the rest of your body. The pelvis is the biggest of these bone structures which inherently gives males advantages in most sports.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 555
Posts: 19,353
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@ILikePie5
not to mention raw muscle mass size of everything, toughness of joints etc

raw biological pain resistance (increased with testosterone but doesn't disappear just because it's reduced)
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 3,205
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@bronskibeat
Still liking your post, because you appear to have thought about it for a fair bit,
And it seems to me my response does not fully or in complete logic address your post.
Just states my opinion.
Not ignoring the cis, trans, terminology 'just because I disagree with it, but also because I find it confusing to use.

I don't know much about Laurel Hubbard, but I'm assuming they were born with the body of a man, and developed much of their life that way.
To my eyes, that places an unfair advantage, also to my biases, people who transition from one sex to another, do not transition.
I have a more difficult time arguing against people born with 'physical not 'mental confusion between sexes.
But assuming that their number are few enough, they can be discounted as an anomaly, and unfortunately barred from competition.
We have systems of separation in life, people who are born with rare conditions such as Conjoined twins, are just out of luck. For the moment.

Returning to women who have been kept out of competitions for having higher than allowed testosterone levels (that they produced naturally).
I don't know much of this claim, I Google it, and see a Reddit claiming she has Male sex organs (albeit just internal testes as a result of a chromosomal disorder), [No ovaries or womb]

I'll have to think about your claim that there exists significant differences based on race.

I'm not concerned 'strictly about a man who's had a sex change to. . . Grr, how do I discuss this without offending a person or admitting their definitions I disagree with? Sorry.
A man who's had a sex change, to try to be a woman. It doesn't matter to me 'just that they ought to be stronger than natural women.
Even if a man agreed to have both his hands cuffed behind his back when fighting a women.
To my prejudices, men just don't fight women.
Also the tendency of differences in body, but the argument that men who have had sex transitions to try to be women, might be weaker, doesn't move me.

zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,068
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@bronskibeat
Essentially:
A bloke competing against women?
Or a bloke that thinks it's a women competing against blokes?....Or vice versa?

Saw a picture, and the receding hair line, makes them look like a bloke.


If this is the inevitable way forwards for human evolution. Wouldn't it perhaps be sensible and fairer to introduce two new trans-categories.


And presumably there's an awful lot of hormone therapy a play here....So how does this sit with doping rules?
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@RationalMadman
Um... do you have any sources to back up the claims in regards to those biological components in women? 

And if muscle mass and pain tolerence is the same and not affected by hormones, how come athletes that tend to compete in the 50th percentile and less against men, also compete at that level among women? You are dodging points, and unable to actually make any solid arguments, instead you rely on others to make your points (not that they do much better), after specifically making the claim yourself. 

This is the height of intellectual dishonesty. And it's not just an accusation, I could list every action I accused you of right now, would you like that? 
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
Seems to me, if a guy wants to be a woman, and vice versa, the sex change operation ought to include not just the genitals, but natural hormone balancing features, bone density and muscle-mass alignment, and, for good measure, full DNA manipulation. I don't think anything less will accomplish the task. Now we're talking an even playing field by gender, sis, or chosen.
Theweakeredge
Theweakeredge's avatar
Debates: 33
Posts: 3,457
4
7
10
Theweakeredge's avatar
Theweakeredge
4
7
10
-->
@fauxlaw
Gender, and even sex, isn't determined by chromosomal composition. As things such as intersex people and people with Swyer Syndrome demonstrate. Your classification of "gender" and "sex" is ruefully outdated. 
fauxlaw
fauxlaw's avatar
Debates: 77
Posts: 3,565
4
7
10
fauxlaw's avatar
fauxlaw
4
7
10
-->
@Theweakeredge
Yeah, according to your other favorite reference, the APA, which I do not recognize as a qualified source on the matter. They change with societal winds. Sorry.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 555
Posts: 19,353
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Theweakeredge
Yes, gold and silver medals robbed from cis women in top of brutal MMA injuries.

Oh and any doctor and biologist who isn't a liar.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 555
Posts: 19,353
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Theweakeredge
You are the one dodging points, not me.

These are career defining medals robbed from women by a male who conveniently transitioned before robbing them of medals.


You use words, I talk reality. You play the transphobe card, I play the career-defining medals card.

This is an abomination to feminism.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 555
Posts: 19,353
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
You want me to call Laurel 'she/her' absolutely, okay. That level of sympathising is fine.


You want me to let a male-sex individual rob female-sex individuals of medals because she is in denial of her biological unfair advantage that no other male-sex person is entitled to rob the females off medals while having in his (or 'her') biology? This is entire careers and achievements being ruined. 
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 555
Posts: 19,353
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Theweakeredge
Wait actually this is hilarious, you're denying basic science rn so all I have to do is give sources stating the blatant right?

Okay.

I'll give one each.


Explanation of non-testosterone raw vody structure advantage males have over females in almost all sports: https://www.livestrong.com/article/509536-muscular-strength-in-women-compared-to-men/

A battle between women and men (it ties them in results but concedes a huge amount of irrefutable physical advantage to males, this is a psychology article so it's more than just raw strength in what's discussed):



You can't accuse a single ine of corrupt agenda, each concedes blatant facts 
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,430
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
I know who's taking home the gold this year
Vader
Vader's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 14,430
5
8
11
Vader's avatar
Vader
5
8
11
-->
@ILikePie5
Exactly, even so, it's not even about the genetic structure, it's about the market value for each team. I hate the argument of equal pay when the market for the WNBA is significantly lower than the NBA, look..

The WNBA as a league's net worth is about $1.6B total

The New Orleans Pelicans are worth $1.35B dollars. They are the least wealthiest team in the NBA

The Knicks franchise nearly triples the total amount for the WNBA's net worth.

Even if they tried raising the pay, they would never be able to pay as much as what the NBA pays due to the fact that they don't make enough money the WNBA. That's simple economics.

The WNBA isn't interesting. If I wanted to see people do layups and shoot 3's, I'd go to a local highschool game. Cheaper and tbh a better atmosphere.
bronskibeat
bronskibeat's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 53
0
1
4
bronskibeat's avatar
bronskibeat
0
1
4
-->
@RationalMadman
Finally! Someone linking to some sources. Let's go..

Wait actually this is hilarious, you're denying basic science rn so all I have to do is give sources stating the blatant right?

Okay.

I'll give one each.

So, this article explains how men and women experience pain differently. It points to testosterone as a pain reducer. This is a quote from the article: "On the basis of his team’s experiments with castration and testosterone treatments in mice, Mogil thinks that pain pathways will be determined by hormone levels. He predicts that people with more than a certain threshold of testosterone will have pain mechanisms associated with males, and those whose testosterone falls below that level will experience pain through mechanisms common in females."

So, a trans-woman who is on testosterone blockers will experience pain in a way that is common in females. 


Explanation of non-testosterone raw vody structure advantage males have over females in almost all sports: https://www.livestrong.com/article/509536-muscular-strength-in-women-compared-to-men/
This article only explains the differences between cis men and cis women (which no one is contesting). It's does not explain the differences between trans women on HRT and cis women.


A battle between women and men (it ties them in results but concedes a huge amount of irrefutable physical advantage to males, this is a psychology article so it's more than just raw strength in what's discussed):



You can't accuse a single ine of corrupt agenda, each concedes blatant facts 
Again, no one is contesting the difference between men and women this way. What we're trying to find is what are the differences between trans-women on HRT and cis women. Are those differences significant? Does it depend on the individuals? Should it be a case by case basis? 
bronskibeat
bronskibeat's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 53
0
1
4
bronskibeat's avatar
bronskibeat
0
1
4
-->
@Lemming
I appreciate your thoughtfulness. It sounds like your hang up with it starts with the idea of transgenderism in and of itself. Which would be a separate, probably much longer conversation.
bronskibeat
bronskibeat's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 53
0
1
4
bronskibeat's avatar
bronskibeat
0
1
4
-->
@ILikePie5

You’re not considering bone structures that are different for men and women. No amount of hormones can change your birth bone structures without affecting the rest of your body. The pelvis is the biggest of these bone structures which inherently gives males advantages in most sports.

Do you have any resources I could look at that would explain the significance of the advantages of bone structure when paired with the effects of HRT?
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 555
Posts: 19,353
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@bronskibeat
Alright, so you develop your strength and bone density as well as ligament tenacity and muscle mass for many years as a man.

Then poof, you're a woman.

Only thing that changed was hormone levels after all those years of development. All you need to do is maintain, not massively improve.

That's exactly how Laurel has the muscle she has and is going to breaj olympic world records for women.


Women


Cis Women


Females, the SEX not GENDER.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 555
Posts: 19,353
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@bronskibeat
Regarding bone density being higher in males and almost permanently so post-puberty. Plenty, I linked to two that both admit it. It's a well known fact in all mammals.
RationalMadman
RationalMadman's avatar
Debates: 555
Posts: 19,353
10
11
11
RationalMadman's avatar
RationalMadman
10
11
11
-->
@Vader
Imagine the woman who would earn bronze and won't even get a medal due to this cheat.
bronskibeat
bronskibeat's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 53
0
1
4
bronskibeat's avatar
bronskibeat
0
1
4
-->
@RationalMadman
Regarding bone density being higher in males and almost permanently so post-puberty. Plenty, I linked to two that both admit it. It's a well known fact in all mammals.
I linked to multiple studies that explain how HRT effects bone density. Trans-women have a much lower bone mass than cis males. One of the studies I linked also highlights that trans-women are considered high risk for osteoporosis because of the impact that HRT has on bone density/health.