Gender and cancel culture.

Author: Bones

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Bones
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If someone changes their gender, it is bigotry to refer to them in the way that they presented years ago: we accept people for who they are currently. If this were considered a good standard, then why is it acceptable to refer to an unsavoury tweet from a decade ago by a person who has since changed? 
RationalMadman
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I am against the idea of cancel culture in the same way that I'm against the concept on which prison is based.

Some people think 'it went too far' here and there, I vehemently think that retribution itself is an illusion and in fact coming to terms with that is a huge step for anyone like myself that suffered with anger and had to really take it head-on if they were to improve themselves.  I know the dark side of cancel culture and peer-based retribution.

That said, I understand the thesis on which that approach is based and as someone from quite a left-wing upbringing and background, I am among family members who are very pro-cancel-culture but who also see exactly the issue with what you said, depending on the scenario.

The first and foremost line to draw between your two scenarios is that the person who has transitioned is neither completely lying (because even if they truly appear like another biological sex, if they are in a situation where someone would refer to them as their former-presented-gender, it means they are inevitably open about their born sex). The offensive poster often will try to hide the evidence, it's often screenshots made by others that come to haunt them (they can be fabricated but then the social media platform can get involved and trace things in their database time-wise to verify so falsely saying it's faked is somewhat a gamble because if it's severe and big-scale enough, the social media platform will oblige investigation but if you're just about lowkey enough for the drama not to surface to a severe level, then you can probably get away with the lie but it's foolish because you're most likely dealing with someone who has a series of honest screenshots and other encounters, reducing the likelihood they'd fabricate specifically for you).

The second line to draw is the confirmation of change. We can confirm someone transitioned gender literally by what they ask to be identified as (no, not some transphobic troll who does it for the lols, I mean in real life where nobody transitions for the lols). In contrast, many sociopathic types of people or even just normal people towards the sociopathic and/or narcissistic end of the spectrum will rather put a lot of effort into faking having changed as a person rather than ever really change. In fact, it's easy to understand why. If you were a genuine racist, sexist, sadist (who verbally bullied to depths you shouldn't have) or something along those lines and you personally fully believe the person you verbally abused deserved it, you wouldn't really be 'sorry' you'd just feel bad you said the toxic things on a platform that left proof which you hadn't foreseen. It's even more likely to occur when the exact type of toxic user meets a more cunning equally toxic user. Sociopaths and narcissists make brilliant baiters and cajolers for one another, oftentimes it was someone just as toxic who baited the other and took the screenshots, relishing in how they ruined the other person's career prospects and even life in general if their own family and friends 'cancel' them. In general, when very kind people read or receive abuse their instinct is to block the other user and tell only one or maximum two people they care about. On the other hand, when a particularly toxic individual reads or receives text and/or video that they feel is offensive and out of order, they'll relish in not only handling things so the person can't continue to abuse them but knowing that everyone in their local area (and hopefully local area of the abusive texter) knows about it. It's the natural way things go, if an abuser meets someone who is just as bitter and angry, then inevitably the clash will not remain bloodless on at least one of their reputations.

When you ask about the latter aspect of cancel culture, you are talking about what very often is one-on-one 'ha, got a screenshot now let me expose you' ethos. When you refer to the cancel culture that punishes people that misgender others and are transphobic, you tend to refer to people who may well be bitter and angry but who are morally motivated to defend someone that is being intentionally hurt and taunted.

So, I'm not denying that cancel culture isn't fair because it refuses to forgive. That isn't what I'm doing here at all. I'm saying to you that often the biggest examples of it involved an abuser who was an asshole and a recipient who wasn't the nicest guy/girl/genderfluid in the world either. That doesn't make what happened right. Abusive posts are abusive and the exposing of the abuser and cancelling of them is not at all a necessarily wrong thing primarily because we don't know if they really changed or are just going for the path of least resistance and pretending to have changed.
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@Bones
If someone changes their gender, it is bigotry to refer to them in the way that they presented years ago: we accept people for who they are currently. If this were considered a good standard, then why is it acceptable to refer to an unsavoury tweet from a decade ago by a person who has since changed? 
I think I would want the specific circumstances before agreeing that mere reference qualifies as cancellation or even that the same standard ought to be applied to both cases.

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@Bones
A Zedku for Bones.


You cannot cancel gender.

Only alter it cosmetically.

And dress it up

In gender specific cloth.


Hey.

But whatever floats ones boat.


And when push comes to shove

Metaphorically speaking

It's all boils down to 

Boat floating.


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If someone changes their gender, it is bigotry to refer to them in the way that they presented years ago: we accept people for who they are currently. If this were considered a good standard, then why is it acceptable to refer to an unsavoury tweet from a decade ago by a person who has since changed? 
So essentially you're asking that if we could accept that a person has legitimately changed their gender, why can't we accept that a person has legitimately changed their mind? Good question. With that said however, if one engages the twitter, then the consequences are one's responsibility.
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@Athias
the key issue is one changing their gender is always genuinely doing it because there's no motive to deceptively 'want' to do that beyond genuinely wanting to do it... There's plenty of reasons to pretend you changed from your toxic posts on social media, plenty indeed.

The issue isn't lack of reason to change the mind and person, it's lack of ability to prove.

63 days later

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Society has no obligation to placate to your personal delusions.
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@Bones
It is not, that is why we consider those people hypocrites and jerks. We are not supposed to do so. Germany was hell in the early 1940s, is that a good reason not to buy Volkswagen cars?
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@Bones
Agreed. I thought people were supposed to be more inclusive nowadays. 
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@Bones
There's levels to cancel culture

People like Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, child predators, etc. are worthy of cancellation

Twitter cancel culture is worthy of a few good laughs, a shot of whiskey, and scrolling to the next tweet
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@Vader
Whiskey.

Is like religion.

We're told that it's fantastic stuff,

And some people choose to belief it.

But in reality it's hideously untrue.
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I think about changing my gender all the time, so I can have sex with men. How do I make myself attracted to men?
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@Incel-chud
Attracted to men? I don't think this is how it works. If you are over puberty and cannot change your genes then we don't have a way, sorry.

Even then, you can have sex with men. You don't have to be "attracted to them". If having sex with men is comfortable, then try it. If it is no longer comfortable, then stop. You have the right to choose, I mean, you don't live in Afghanistan.
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@Intelligence_06
Attracted to men? I don't think this is how it works. If you are over puberty and cannot change your genes then we don't have a way, sorry.
Homosexuality is not genetic. It comes from living in a depraved society. I might try it, if I can't find a woman. 
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@Incel-chud
Why would you even want something that is living? /s
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@Incel-chud
No, no, actually, I don't think this is how it works. Can you perhaps source the material?


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@Intelligence_06
With homosexuality not being genetic. It's a sexual preference.  I believe there could be genetic predisposition, but it is a preference thing. For example, eating pizza and liking it, isn't really genetic. It's a cultural thing and people love it, but it is preference. With sexual preference it is the same. Nobody is born loving fat chick's, it just happens, same with homosexuality.  A preference. You won't find a gay gene. 

It doesn't mean it is necessarily changeable. If you love pizza you aren't likely to start hating it, and if you hate the taste of sushi than you aren't likely just to start loving it
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@Incel-chud
This is blatantly false. While social influence can certainly effect your sexuality, genetics do in fact have a role to play in homosexuality. Let's back this up with sources shall we?

So while no single gene is responsible for causing homosexuality, there is a sexual basis
"Studies have indicated that same-sex orientation and behavior has a genetic basis and runs in families, yet specific genetic variants have not been isolated (1). Evidence that sexual orientation has a biological component could shape acceptance and legal protection: 4 to 10% of individuals report ever engaging in same-sex behavior in the United States, so this could affect a sizeable proportion of the population (2). On page 882 of this issue, Ganna et al. (3) report the largest study to date, comprising almost half a million individuals in the United Kingdom and United States, identifying genetic variants associated with same-sex sexual behavior. They provide evidence that genetic variation accounts for a small fraction of same-sex sexual behavior and uncover a relationship to the regulation of the sex hormones testosterone and estrogen as well as sex-specific differences. They also reveal complexity of human sexuality." [1]
Just in case you weren't sure, there is a very complex underlying genetic/biological factor underpinning homosexuality and sexual preference as a whole
"We review research supporting biological mechanisms in the development of sexual orientation. This research includes studies on neural correlates, prenatal hormones and related physical/behavioral correlates, genetics, and the fraternal birth order effect (FBOE). These studies, taken together, have provided substantial support for biological influences underlying the development of sexual orientation, but questions remain unanswered, including how biological mechanisms may differ in contributing to men's and women's sexual orientation development." [2]
To be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, a combination of genetic and environmental factors influence and cause differences in sexuality
"Research on the causes of human sexual orientation has been marshaled in support of predetermined and opposing theological viewpoints. Whilst acknowledging that there is still much that is not known, the peer reviewed scientific literature clearly shows that a combination of genetic and environmental factors contribute to sexual orientation, with approximately one third of variance currently attributed to the former. Much of the known environmental influence appears to be intra-uterine and there is no currently convincing evidence that social environment plays a significant part. This body of evidence is relevant to theology. Greater attention should be given to critical interdisciplinary engagement of the theology and science of sexual orientation." [3]


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@Theweakeredge
To be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, a combination of genetic and environmental factors influence and cause differences in sexuality
That is literally what I said. 
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That is a rewording of the following statement

believe there could be genetic predisposition, but it is a preference thing. 
This statement acknowledges a likely genetic component and mentions environmental reasons as well. 
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@Incel-chud
This is false, you said:
"With homosexuality not being genetic.." (Incel-Chud, #17)
You did not agree with me, do not pretend as if you did.
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@Theweakeredge
The very next sentence I acknowledge a genetic predisposition is possible. I already quoted the sentence. The first sentence might be due to my sloppiness at making myself clear.

It should perhaps read

homosexuality is not strictly or even predominantly a genetic thing. 
The second sentence you just gloss over, without considering what the first sentence would mean, given that context. 
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@Incel-chud
Masking your homophobia doesn't work so well when you explicitly said this: 
Homosexuality is not genetic. It comes from living in a depraved society. I might try it, if I can't find a woman. 
and associated yourself with your Wylted account from the get-go.
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@RationalMadman
That isn't a homophobic statement. 
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@Incel-chud
🤣

and this isn't a debate website

pigs can fly
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@RationalMadman
Homophobia would be a type of prejudice against homosexuals.  

Claiming that living in a depraved society contributes to the environmental impacts that cause homophobia, is not the same as saying that homosexuals are lesser than or bad people. It is not even a statement as to whether being homosexual is an ethical thing. 

In fact it can be simultaneously true that living in a depraved society causes lots of homosexuality and that being a homosexual is superior to being a heterosexual. 


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@Incel-chud
 I might try it, if I can't find a woman. 

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@RationalMadman
I thought it was funny. The older you get the worse your jokes get though. 
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@Incel-chud
It identity politics all you do? 
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@Reece101
I also mime