“everything’s gonna be all white” docuseries

Author: cristo71

Posts

Total: 53
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,070
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
New, on SHOWTIME, the docuseries “everything’s gonna be all white”:


A deep dive into America’s tainted past through the voices and experiences of people of color.

What do you guys make of this? Productive and insightful, or unproductive and heavy-handed, or somewhere in between? Whatever the case may be, rest assured, this view is NOT being taught to children in school! [sarcasm]

I see it as unproductive because it appears to undermine its own point— that it’s wrong to discriminate against a group on basis of identity and immutable characteristics, all while casting white people in a negative light. It also appears to posit the notion that identity groups are monolithic in ideology, worldview, culture, etc.

Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 3,205
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@cristo71
Eh, about 50 seconds in I lose interest in the opinions of the people in the video.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,070
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@Lemming
It appears to interview people with similar views, which bolsters the misconception that POC are monolithic…
Lemming
Lemming's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 3,205
4
4
10
Lemming's avatar
Lemming
4
4
10
-->
@cristo71
Well, propaganda, Tends to be heavy handed.

People see a subject, and they want to make a point of what they see wrong with it,
Same with debates really, common for people to strawman what they're attacking.

Though I suppose I'm not steel manning the video myself,
Ah well.
oromagi
oromagi's avatar
Debates: 117
Posts: 8,689
8
10
11
oromagi's avatar
oromagi
8
10
11
Well, I don't get Showtime but I don't think I'd have been likely to watch if I did.  If the thesis is just racism exists in America and this is just an edgy take on that thesis, well....fine but I think I've heard it. 

A new documentary comes out on the Holocaust every year but once you've watched Shoah, you've pretty much got the narrative and the mere repetition becomes a little depressing.  Same with racism in US.

Unless this doc has something really new to say I think I'll probably wait for one that does.

For example, I would like to see a doc about the  Louisiana State Patrol, the pattern of racial violence committed by at least one Troop in that State and the current Governor's culpability in covering up those crimes.  Something specific, something that's fixable in the short term seems more worthy of my attention than a general treatment of the problem.
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@cristo71
I see it as unproductive because it appears to undermine its own point— that it’s wrong to discriminate against a group on basis of identity and immutable characteristics, all while casting white people in a negative light.
Casting (white) people in a negative light for awful actions isn't discriminating a group on the basis of identity or immutable characteristics. 
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 4,093
3
6
9
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
9
-->
@SkepticalOne
Well I wasn't responsible for any of history's misfortune.
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,555
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Mharman
instead your people are responsible for history's greatest fortunes
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@Mharman
Well I wasn't responsible for any of history's misfortune.

Were you called out by name? That's weird.


Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 4,093
3
6
9
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
9
-->
@Dr.Franklin
In some cases, yes. But that doesn't tell me what I am entitled to as a person. Same thing with any other people.
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 4,093
3
6
9
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
9
-->
@SkepticalOne
No. But I have heard this one before. "Our ancestors had a rough time in history, and now we want some kind of reparations."

I am not entitled to any of the benefits of my ancestors, nor am I forced to inherit their problems. I am responsible for my own choice and actions. Same goes for anyone else. I don't care who you are.
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@Mharman
I am not entitled to any of the benefits of my ancestors, nor am I forced to inherit their problems.

It is likely you are the recipient of the benefits due to your ancestors. It is also likely some of those benefits came from systemic repression of other groups. 

Out of curiosity, do you think there is anything wrong with an inheritance created from unethical/immoral actions? 
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,070
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@SkepticalOne
Casting (white) people in a negative light for awful actions isn't discriminating a group on the basis of identity or immutable characteristics. 
Ah, yes it is. See: “guilt by association”… or guilt by group identity, in other words

SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@cristo71
Ah, yes it is. See: “guilt by association”… or guilt by group identity, in other words
It's not guilt by association - it is literally white people who, in this country, have been guilty of taking advantage of POC in a multitude of ways. It is also not all in the past. The legacy of black codes, Jim Crow laws, redlining and the way that we fund schools (property taxes), voter suppression (historically and now), as well as disparate treatment in policing and the judicial system (and many others).

If you feel guilty being told white people have been responsible for a multitude of evils from which they still benefit and from which POC still struggle, all I can say is the truth hurts. We need to own up to transgressions (past and present) as well as our  stolen inheritance, and start being part of the solution for a change.
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,005
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
If you feel guilty being told white people have been responsible for a multitude of evils from which they still benefit and from which POC still struggle, all I can say is the truth hurts. We need to own up to transgressions (past and present) as well as our  stolen inheritance, and start being part of the solution for a change.
I don’t feel guilty about it, I feel annoyed because pushing back against this narrative can cause you to lose your job. I don’t think that talking about racial groups that comprise of tens of millions of individuals as being “guilty” or having “stolen” anything is a productive conversation to have. I want peace and friendship between racial groups and the type of rhetoric in that video and your post is clearly counter productive to that goal. 

The fact is that black people certainly had a rough go of it in this country. The fact also is that for the last half century they have been committing wildly disproportionate amounts of crime, to the point that in 90% of black-white crimes white people are the victims despite whites outnumbering blacks 5 to 1. In addition, the welfare state that has existed since the 1960s has disproportionately benefited black people and has disproportionately been paid for by white people. Then there are affirmative action policies, preferential hiring and contracts…etc. A full and honest accounting of things, which takes into account the fact that crime and injustice against living people has more moral weight than crime and injustice that occurred against people who are now dead probably wouldn’t come out the way you would want it to.

I don’t think anyone owes anyone else anything other than the people who have actually committed crimes or benefited from someone else’s labor, but you clearly do. If you’re going to say that I, because of the color of my skin, am indebted to some other group because of the color of THEIR skin…I’m going to push back. 
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,070
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@SkepticalOne
Casting (black) people in a negative light for awful actions isn't discriminating a group on the basis of identity or immutable characteristics. 
You stand by the above characterization then?

SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@cristo71
Yep, because the problem would be actions not skin color. 
Dr.Franklin
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Debates: 32
Posts: 10,555
4
7
11
Dr.Franklin's avatar
Dr.Franklin
4
7
11
-->
@Mharman
In some cases, yes. But that doesn't tell me what I am entitled to as a person. Same thing with any other people.
Oh for Chrissake take some pride in your people. Every other race does. There's entire months dedicated to black, Hispanic, native American, etc history but it's wrong think to take pride for your own people if your white. YOU ARE ENTITLED to a prosperous future because your ancestors literally built western civilization. They literally built everything we see today.
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
The fact also is that for the last half century they have been committing wildly disproportionate amounts of crime, to the point that in 90% of black-white crimes white people are the victims despite whites outnumbering blacks 5 to 1.
When we consider factors such as POC being many times more likely to be pulled over, POC being many times more likely to be charged with drug offenses (when blacks and white use and sell illegal drugs at similar rates), POC being more likely to be excused from juries, white defendants being more likely to be offered plea bargains, etc., that statistic unravels and corroborates the existence of an unfair system.

In addition, the welfare state that has existed since the 1960s has disproportionately benefited black people and has disproportionately been paid for by white people

Given the obstacles systemic racism provides, it would be no surprise (and not unreasonable) if there was a greater need for help in black communities. However, as it stands now, blacks are the not the prime welfare beneficiaries. For instance, ~37 % of SNAP participants are white as compared to ~26 % black. Whites burden the system moreso than blacks.

I don’t think anyone owes anyone else anything other than the people who have actually committed crimes or benefited from someone else’s labor

If you go back and look at the post you responded to, you'll see listed quite a few ways society has benefitted from the labor, resources, and stolen potential of the black community. 

If you’re going to say that I, because of the color of my skin, am indebted to some other group because of the color of THEIR skin…I’m going to push back. 
That is not what I am saying. We should recognize how as a society we have taken advantage of and mistreated some of our own, and we should make every attempt to correct and go in a new direction.
Athias
Athias's avatar
Debates: 20
Posts: 3,192
3
3
9
Athias's avatar
Athias
3
3
9
-->
@cristo71
So-called "black" people, namely the ones here in the U.S. and most of the Westernized world have been inculcated with and indoctrinated by a well-cultivated lie. And that is, their history has been marked with and predominantly consisting of slavery, despite the fact that one would be hard pressed to find a demographic whose history didn't feature slavery--yes, even so-called "whites" were slaves in the past, especially Eastern Europeans. It's also interesting to note that one of the first cases of chattel slavery in the United States was of a so-called "Black" landowner seeking ownership over his indentured servant. Brazil had more African slaves than any other nation, but it doesn't receive the flack the United States does because the United States promised "equality"--a nebulous and counterproductive concept. So now, generations of so-called "black" individuals are being funneled through State-sponsored schools, having front row seats to bullshit propaganda which is intended to induce a "victim's mentality"--which will later manifest in a political Munchhausen Syndrome with "liberal" policy being the only reprieve. (And believe me, no one respects a victim.) So-called "Black" people have been so disconnected from their respective cultures (if you're wondering about the reason I'm using "so-called," it's because "Black" "White" "Asian," "Hispanics" are not an ethnicity, race, or culture; they're government/corporate designations) that they've become prone to identifying with the bullshit they hear in music, watch on television, listen to on the radio, read in the newspaper or magazines, or find on prominent websites. And seeing these pitiful individuals on the trailer is just a cultivation of everything I've mentioned. Ironic: the first woman who appears is Amanda Seales, who notoriously stated on an instagram post I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Black men aren't shit.

So to answer your question, critsto71: this is unproductive and heavy-handed, to say the least.
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,005
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@SkepticalOne
When we consider factors such as POC being many times more likely to be pulled over, POC being many times more likely to be charged with drug offenses (when blacks and white use and sell illegal drugs at similar rates), POC being more likely to be excused from juries, white defendants being more likely to be offered plea bargains, etc., that statistic unravels and corroborates the existence of an unfair system.
No it’s doesn’t. And you know that. The argument that the white crime rate is just as high and whites just get off is patently absurd. For that to be the case there would have to be quite literally millions of unreported crimes. And the white supremacist justice system would for some reason spare Asians, Hispanics, and native Americans from being caught up in massively disproportionate amounts of crime and only prosecutes black people 

I don’t think anyone is responsible for crimes other than the criminals themselves. If a black person commits a crime, a black person who didn’t commit that crime bears absolutely no responsibility. But it’s curious that when it’s black people committing crimes you obfuscate and make excuses, but the guilt for crimes white people commit not only transfer across generations, but across families as well. Some might call holding whites to an impossibly high standard while holding another group to a very low standard is racist   

Given the obstacles systemic racism provides, it would be no surprise (and not unreasonable) if there was a greater need for help in black communities. However, as it stands now, blacks are the not the prime welfare beneficiaries. For instance, ~37 % of SNAP participants are white as compared to ~26 % black. Whites burden the system moreso than blacks.
So whites are represented around 61% of their share of their population while blacks are represented around 200% of their population. This proves my point. And I’m not saying this as a way to attack black people, I am happy to help the poor and wish our society did more of it. But if you’re going to say that we as a race “owe” them something, surely what amounts to a massive wealth transfer between races over decades is a relevant consideration, no? 

If you go back and look at the post you responded to, you'll see listed quite a few ways society has benefitted from the labor, resources, and stolen potential of the black community.
you’re supposed to be a skeptical, empirical minded person. So why don’t you tell me? Exactly what portion of my net worth was “stolen” from black people? And how? How much do I owe? How can I absolve this debt? 
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@thett3
The argument that the white crime rate is just as high and whites just get off is patently absurd.
This was not my argument.


But if you’re going to say that we as a race “owe” them something,
I specifically addressed this in my last response. I've not said we as a race owe anyone anything other than honesty about the past and a better path forward. 


Exactly what portion of my net worth was “stolen” from black people?
You've missed the point. I am not advocating for monetary reparations.


I see no reason to continue. You have established a pattern of oversimplifying and/or misrepresenting my arguments. Thanks for the conversation though.
thett3
thett3's avatar
Debates: 2
Posts: 2,005
3
2
7
thett3's avatar
thett3
3
2
7
-->
@SkepticalOne
You've missed the point. I am not advocating for monetary reparations.
But you said that we have a “stolen inheritance.” If that’s the case why wouldn’t we give it back? It doesn’t seem very fair that you get to preach about what a pack of thieves we all are but get to retreat to “well I’m not saying you should be paying black people money…”  when someone challenges you. Am I a thief, or not?
Mharman
Mharman's avatar
Debates: 18
Posts: 4,093
3
6
9
Mharman's avatar
Mharman
3
6
9
-->
@SkepticalOne

It is likely you are the recipient of the benefits due to your ancestors. It is also likely some of those benefits came from systemic repression of other groups. 
I’m sorry but do you know me and my life? Do you know the poverty both of my parents grew up in? The idea that being white gives you an easier pass is bullshit when there are white people growing up in the same circumstances as other races. You can argue that percentage wise some races may have it worse, but there are individuals of all races who have started out in horrible living conditions only to find success beyond their wildest dreams. If they can do that, then any individual of any race growing up in poverty can make it to the middle class at least. There is no excuse. 

Individuals are responsible for their own life choices, regardless of the hand being dealt. One cannot use race as a scapegoat for failures or a reason to discredit others’ successes. Instead one must suck it up and work hard. If they do that they will make a significant lifestyle improvement. Anyone of any race can do that.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,070
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
-->
@SkepticalOne
In response to this:

Casting (black) people in a negative light for awful actions isn't discriminating a group on the basis of identity or immutable characteristics.
“You stand by the above characterization, then?”


You responded:

Yep, because the problem would be actions not skin color.
The problem is that you are essentially ascribing “awful actions” specifically and uniquely to a particular identity group. Black people, in the above case.
SkepticalOne
SkepticalOne's avatar
Debates: 9
Posts: 1,720
3
3
7
SkepticalOne's avatar
SkepticalOne
3
3
7
-->
@cristo71
Yep, because the problem would be actions not skin color.
The problem is that you are essentially ascribing “awful actions” specifically and uniquely to a particular identity group. Black people, in the above case.
Nonsense. It's not about the immutable skin color but the mutable actions. Plus, it just so happens those actions were done by white people - that's not some sort of agenda to make white people look bad - its a factual statement. You are essentially objecting to an accurate accounting of history.
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,070
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
It’s hardly nonsense. You are *equating* awful actions with a certain identity group— as is this docuseries. And there’s a word for that.

There exist pockets of hardcore white supremacists who, I’ve been led to believe but could be wrong, would love nothing more than a full on race war in this country. My question is: if anti-racists also wanted a race war, what would they be doing differently, if anything? Not a rhetorical question— I’d actually like to hear possible answers!

Thankfully, there is a middle path to be explored— one with much less virtue signaling, anti-white attitudes, militancy, and more in a spirit of unity. I suggest listening to what Professor John McWhorter has to say for starters…

So, is there ANY part of this trailer that rubs you the wrong way?
cristo71
cristo71's avatar
Debates: 1
Posts: 1,070
3
2
3
cristo71's avatar
cristo71
3
2
3
UPDATE:

It appears that this docuseries is about as well-received as a fart in an elevator, and rightly so.

This means there is some hope for our society!

28 days later

sadolite
sadolite's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 2,839
3
2
4
sadolite's avatar
sadolite
3
2
4
I am white and I spend every waking moment thinking of ways to oppresse anyone who isn't white. It's all that I think about. Even while I am at work. White people don't do anything unless it leads to oppressing people who are not white in some way. If you are not white you have no hope of ever succeeding at anything, just give up. 
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 11,073
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@sadolite
If that's you in the picture,

If that's you in the photograph,

Florida sunshine brown.