Points: 20

God Exists And Humans Depend On God To Live

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 4 votes the winner is ...
It's a tie!
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Religion
Time for argument
Three days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
Two weeks
Point system
Four points
Characters per argument
10,000
Points: 20
Description
*Rules*
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5. Death23, ethang5, and any of their related accounts may not vote on or participate in this debate because of the dishonesty section of the rules.
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*Full Resolution*
God exists and humans depend on god to live.
Pro
Has the BoP, 4 rounds, 10K characters per round, and 3 days per post to AFFIRM that god exists and humans depend on god to live; Pro should also refute Con.
Con
Has 4 rounds, 10K characters per round, and 3 days per post to NEGATE that god exists and humans dpend on god to live; Con should also refute Pro.
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*Definitions*
god - a superhuman existence worshiped as having power over nature and human fortunes.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/god
superhuman - above or beyond what is human; having a higher nature or greater powers than humans have.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/superhuman
existence - something that exists.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/existence
exists - has objective reality or being.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/exist
humans - members of the Homo Sapiens species; human beings belonging to the genus Homo.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/homo_sapiens
depend on - rely on.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/depend
live - remain alive.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/live
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May the better argument win!
Round 1
Published:
Intro

Thanks for accepting, Con.
May we have an enlightening debate about god.
Before we get started, I'm going to supply some additions to the definitions under this intro.
To me, god is something so large that the definition of god should match that enormity.



Additions To The Definitions
(requested in the comments, promised by me to do it)

I had substituted a word without tracing my steps, so here it is.

god - a superhuman being worshiped as having power over nature and human fortunes.

being - existence.

existence - something that exists.

All of the rest of the definitions are still agreed to by the debaters and the voters.



*God Is Superhuman*

1. God is more massive than all the humans that have ever lived combined.
God is superhuman in size.

2. God has enough power to melt a bridge of ice 2 miles wide, 1 mile thick, that extends 93,000 miles in distance, in one second.
How many humans can do that?
God is superhuman in power.

3. God has the power and influence to move every human on earth in any direction god starts to move.
Sounds beyond human to me.
God is superhuman in influence.

4. God is perfect in form, one of the only perfect shapes we can detect in nature.
No human is a perfect shape or form.
God is superhuman in form.

5. Part of god's most external being can be transported to and experienced by any human at the speed of light.
That type of transport and connection is greater than any human capability.
God is superhuman in mobility and reach.



*God Has Power Over Nature*

Being that god played a crucial role in the origin of life on earth, was central to the formation and structure of the earth, controls our days and nights, maintains our habitable position in the universe, indirectly or directly provides all metabolizable energy to every organism on earth, controls all existing food webs, controls the water cycle, and controls the seasons, god has power over nature.

In fact, without god, none of these archetypes of nature could even exist on earth.


The Origin of Life on Earth

Abiogenesis explains that with an atmosphere, water salinity, inorganic compounds, volcanic activity, electricity, and energy from god likely of a prebiotic earth, inorganic compounds can naturally become organic compounds in the form of amino acids.
Researchers have used CH4, C2H6, NH3, H2S and god's energy and yielded alanine, glycine, serine, glutamic acid, aspartic acid, and cystine which are the building blocks of life.
Therefore, god was central to the origin of life on earth.


The Formation and Structure of the Earth

As god shook and mixed the dust from which the earth formed, god allowed iron to coalesce, which began forming the globular structure of the earth.
With god's massive energy and influence, the earth became one of the terrestrial planets.


Our Days and Nights on Earth

Our day-night cycle is completely based around god, to the extent that we schedule our events around god and even realize time using god.
God's Time     &     A Godly Day


Our Habitable Position In The Universe

God uses the right mix of elements to protect the earth from the dangerous spiral arms of the galaxy and allows the earth to maintain a sufficient distance from the galactic center so that it is not disrupted by its gravitational forces or susceptible to too much radiation in order to maintain our habitable position in the universe.


Metabolizable Energy & Food Webs

God's energy radiates so intensely that it provides metabolizable energy to autotrophs, feeding us and maintaining all food webs.
For those food webs using the earth's heat and chemosynthetic metabolism, god is providing the energy to them to from god's intense radiation.


The Water Cycle

God drives the water cycle, heats water in oceans and seas, and allows for evaporation.


The Seasons

God's intense power attempts to reach all of us equally, but we live on a tilted oblate spheroid, so while god's trying to be all perfect sending god energy, we're being all imperfect and slanted, and this connection controls the seasons.
Thanks god.



*God Has Power Over Human Fortunes*

Farmers utterly rely on god to provide them with enough energy to grow crops, feed their families, and make money from their harvests.
How are we going to have great fortune if we don't have anything to eat?
Humans' fortunes are contingent on god directly/indirectly providing the light and energy to our companies, farms, and homes.

Even further to this point, not only was the origin of life contingent on god's existence, but human's current existence and therefore any future human fortune CANNOT happen without god's power.
If earth does not maintain a habitable position in the universe, as god is allowing for now, then humans are done.

Without a future, there is no fortune.
Without god, there is no human fortune.



*Humans Depend On God To Live*

Given that god has power over EVERYTHING humans need to live, including a habitable position in the universe, water, and food, humans not only depend on god to live, but they could not exist without god.
Done.



*God*

Being that I'm a heliolater, I worship god for everything it has done, is doing, and will do for me.
In heliolatry, our god is the sun, praise be unto hydrogen, and we worship it for its superhuman capabilities, its power over human fortunes, and the fact that humans depend on it to live.

I don't like to use the word sun, praise be unto hydrogen, because I have to say that phrase every time.
So I just call it god.


Con?
Published:

Allow me to lean on Aquinas, et al, a bit here.
 
A physical thing is composed of matter.  Doesn’t matter if it’s a gas, liquid, solid or plasma—it is still composed of matter. 
 
We arrive at this simple conclusion by observing the world around us and using our reasoning: 
 
A physical thing can not create itself.
     -     That rock over there didn't create itself.  Something else had to create it.  
-          That car over there didn’t will itself into being.  Something had to create it.
-          That building was created by something.
-          The earth was created by something, it didn’t create itself.
 
We observe this fact, through science, about every physical thing around us.  There is not a physical thing that we observe that is believed to have created itself. 
 
One can ask these basic questions about every physical thing we observe— how did it come into existence?  It could not have created itself, so WHAT created it? 
 
As stated, when one asks this question repeatedly of everything, one ultimately arrives at the question “Well, what about matter itself?” (Reminds me of that Rocky & Bullwinkle quip, “Wassamatta U.!”).  “What created matter?”
 
Well, when one asks the question “What created matter?”, it’s reasonable to use our experience about everything else we observe, via science, and draw the following conclusion “Matter could not have created itself because, as we witness around us, a physical thing can not create itself.  It’s reasonable to deduce that this would apply to “matter” itself.”
 
Therefore, “matter” could not create itself.  It’s reasonable to conclude that whatever created matter must be “im-material” (i.e. not composed of matter).  In fact, what created the universe must exist OUTSIDE the universe (how would it be part of the universe and create the universe?).
 
The sun is a physical entity in this universe.  It is composed of matter, as is other physical entities in this universe.  As shown above, the “sun” could not have created itself.  Nor could hydrogen. 
 
While it is true God has power over nature, why is that?  Is it because maybe God created nature? 
-          Did the sun create nature?  No
-          The Sun, though powerful, is still subject to the laws of physics as well as the theory of relativity.  These physical laws/theories bind things within this universe.  In other words, physical objects in this universe (me, you…the car…the surfer…and yes, the Sun) are bound by the laws of physics
 
Your origin of life on Earth is flawed.  The sun may have simply just provided the right temperature/pressure for life to begin, that in no way can be translated into "The Sun created life".  That would be like saying the oven "made the cake"-- it just simply provided the right environment.  In addition, timply because science has replicated the building blocks of earth, this in no way proves that is HOW life originated on earth. I can construct an Atari video game in my garage….that doesn’t prove my way was the way the original video game was constructed.
 
Your theory on the formation and structure of the Earth is appealing.  However, while it might explain the earth and it’s formation, it fails to explain the formation of other physical objects outside our solar system.  Nor does it explain things that have non-physical existence, like thoughts, ideas, and concepts.
 
Just because we schedule our days/nights around the rotation of the earth to the sun, it the beginning it was done out of necessity.  Now, with the advent of technology, it’s more of a convenience.  In fact, many activities are independent of Night/Day (can I get three cheers for them finally installing lights at Wrigley Field??).  I tend to schedule my work day around my Boss’ needs—I’m not about to start worshiping him as a God.
 
  
So wow you may follow the path of the ancient Egyptians and worship the Sun (Ra), one would question why?  Through your power of reason and deduction, you should be able to deduce that something had to have created the sun, and thus, be more powerful than the sun. 

While I could refute everything you write in defense of worshiping the Sun, er, hydrogen, there's no need to -- the agove is sufficient refutation of your argment (particular what I drew from Aquinas, et al).  

Thanks for playin'.


Round 2
Published:
Round 2

Thanks for that response Con.
Con seems to spend a lot of time discussing the creation of matter, the creation of nature, and the creation of objects outside of the solar system, none of which are remotely relevant to the resolution.
But, I've got 10,000 characters, and it's time to rebuttal.



*Matter*

Pardon the irony, but this portion of Con's argument, well, doesn't matter.

The sun, praise be unto hydrogen, just needs to be worshiped as having power over nature and human fortunes to be considered god, so how matter is created or not is irrelevant to whether or not god is worshiped for particular characteristics.
What's more important is whether or not the god of heliolatry exists, affirming half of my burden.


Con begins:
"Allow me to lean on Aquinas, et al, a bit here."
My response:
Ok, allow me to lean on the definition of god here, which mentions a superhuman existence worshiped for having power over nature and human fortunes, so let's try to stay relevant here, ok?


Con naively continues:
"What created matter?...what created the universe must exist OUTSIDE the universe...the sun is a physical entity in this universe...the Sun, though powerful, is still subject to the laws of physics."
My response:
First, Con concedes here that god exists as a physical entity in the universe, so this concession, directly related to the part of the resolution "God exists," cannot be overlooked by voters.

Second, what created matter is IRRELEVANT to the existence of a superhuman being worshiped for its power over nature and human fortunes.
Creating matter, resisting physics, and existing outside of the universe are all NOT characteristics of the agreed-to definition of god in this debate.

God is worshiped?
Check.
Humans depend on god to live?
Check.
These two points I just made were more relevant than ALL of Con's previous round.



*Power Over Nature*

I had pointed out a litany of examples where god has power over nature...here's what Con said.

Con concedes:
"While it is true God has power over nature, why is that?"
My response:
Con admits here that god has power over nature, supporting heliolaters in their worshiping of god for god's power over nature.

To answer the question, the reason why god has power over nature is that all of the things we consider part of nature here on earth are controlled by the power of god, I mean, without god, there is no nature on earth, so on the contingency of earthly nature on god ALONE demonstrates god's power over nature.
Plus Con concedes god's power over nature.


Con obliviously asks:
"Did the sun create nature?"
My response:
Yes.
I had sourced that the formation of the earth was done by god mixing the right elements and coalescing the earth, and I also sourced that these created-by-god elements were the ingredients for the origin of life on earth, and these two components, earth with life, are the literal creation of nature on earth.
God created the nature we experience every day on earth.


Origin of life on earth

Con reckons:
"Your origin of life on Earth is flawed."
My response:
Is it now?
Do tell why.


Con shows ignorance:
"The sun may have simply just provided the right temperature/pressure for life to begin, that in no way can be translated into 'The Sun created life'. "
My response:
I never said the sun, praise be unto hydrogen, created life, check the debate, I said that god was central to the origin of life on earth because of god's power over nature.
Also, Con ignores that it wasn't just temperature/pressure from god that allowed organic molecules and subsequent life forms to originate, because Con didn't bother to read the source I had provided on the subject.

My source had indicated god was "used...for long-wave UV radiation to generate alanine, glycine, serine, glutamic acid, aspartic acid, and cystine from a CH4, C2H6, NH3, and H2S gas mixture," which were created by god when god formed the earth.

God was not only a catalyst for the origin of life.
God made the ingredients photo-genetically, and then mixed in god's energy to originate organic compounds and subsequent life forms.

The compounds were solar generated, Con.
Why did you ignore that?


Formation of the Earth

Con admits:
"Your theory on the formation and structure of the Earth...might explain the earth and it’s formation...it fails to explain the formation of other physical objects outside our solar system."
My response:
No one ever claimed that god created objects outside of the system of god.
What a preposterous thought.
Nothing about god in this debate indicates that god must be responsible for creating things outside of the system of god.
Nothing.


Our Days and Nights on Earth

Con concedes:
"we schedule our days/nights around the rotation of the earth to the sun"
My response:
Con concedes to the point that we organize our lives around god and that the value of a day-night cycle is only possible with god.


Con continues:
"in fact, many activities are independent of Night/Day (can I get three cheers for them finally installing lights at Wrigley Field??)."
My response:
Con highlights why we typically schedule baseball games during the day and, for that matter, most of our outdoor activities, because we are utterly dependent on and we function concurrently with god's appearance and lack thereof.
God provides us with guiding light when we are active, and soft, quiet darkness when we're resting.



*Creation of the Sun, praise be unto hydrogen*

This bit from Con is another argument in a series of irrelevant arguments.

Con gets condescending:
"Through your power of reason and deduction, you should be able to deduce that something had to have created the sun."
My response:
Yeah, it was a cloud of interstellar dust that gravitationally collapsed into a hydrogen ball.
This doesn't change the fact that we heliolaters worship god for god's power over nature and human fortunes.
The event that created god does not negate god's existence, in fact, that event validates god's existence.



*Worshiping God*

Con puffs his chest:
"While I could refute everything you write in defense of worshiping the Sun..."
My response:
You're not going to because the arguments are insurmountable?


Con continues:
"...there's no need to."
My response:
So instead of Con using his round to refute that god exists or that god is worshiped or that humans depend on god to live, Con finds it sufficient to arbitrarily talk about matter, a really dumb argument from Thomas Aquinas, the creation of objects elsewhere in the universe, and then claim at the end of a completely irrelevant round "I could refute...there's no need to."

Con drops ALL relevant-to-the-resolution points made by Pro 1st round.



Conclusion

Humans depend on god and Con agrees this god exists.
Praise hydrogen.

Published:
Not remotely relevant?  The whole point is, if you can use logic and reasoning to show that some "thing" had to create the universe, the sun, etc, it stands to reason that worshiping the Sun is illogical when something much larger, much more powerful than the Sun is "out there". 

So if you make the claim that people are dependent on the sun, then I would argue "Yes, and because the sun is dependent on something else, this something else is also super human and should be worshiped as a God. "

Yep, and my response is, there something much greater than the sun-- superhuman too - more deserving of worship than the Sun.  In fact, the sun depends on IT for it's existence.  

Sorry, I did not concede that God is a physical entity.  When did I concede that?  Perhaps you have this debate confused with another one.  lol.  What I said is something immaterial (not of the material universe) had to create the universe (and thus the sun).  


Curious, why don't you worship Earth?  We are totally dependent on the earth, are we not?  Without the earth, we wouldn't survive.  Earth's gravity holds us to it-- without it we'd drive off into space.  The earth provides the nutrients we need, the rain we need, etc.  

Having one or two super-human abilities does not a God make.  Sorry.  While the sun can melt an ice bridge extremely fast, that is not the only pre-requisite for being God.  I can name a whole host of things that a human can do that a sun can't do.  One would expect a God to do everything a human can do, and more:
      1.  Type a response on a debate blog
      2.  Play Eddie Van Halen's Eruption on guitar
      3.  Make a margarita
      4.  Think a thought
      5.  Send a man to the moon.

How many suns can do the above things?

So while the sun may have super-human abilities, humans have quite a bit of super-sun abilities--things the sun can't do.  If there are things we can do that the the supposed god can't do, one should question why it should be worshiped as a God.  


Formation
Your argument claims that the Sun formed the Earth.  Scientists disagree with you.  

Our Days and Nights - Again, my argument is simple:
We are not dependent on the sun any more providing guiding light.  sorry.

You did mention one key word in your defense of God-- you said "perfect" shape.

Curious, how do you define "perfect"?



Round 3
Published:
Round 3

Thanks for that Con.
Con seems to pretty much ride that irrelevant train all the way to the Red Herring Station.
All aboard!


Creating the Universe

I can't for the life of me figure out why Con keeps talking about this; it has nothing to do with god.

Con ignores the definitions again:
"The whole point is, if you can use logic and reasoning to show that some "thing" had to create the universe, the sun, etc, it stands to reason that worshiping the Sun is illogical when something much larger, much more powerful than the Sun is 'out there.'"
My response:
That I worship the superhuman sun, praise be unto hydrogen, for having power over nature and human fortunes satisfies the definition of god, done.
More than that, god does not have to be the creator of the universe.
Where did you get that idea Con?
Not from this debate.

Also the universe wasn't created by god or otherwise, therefore there was no creator of a universe that wasn't created.
Creation is a temporal concept.
Spacetime originated at the universe's origin.
A temporal process could not have occurred without time having originated.
No universe, no time, no temporal processes like creation.

creation - the process of bringing something into existence.

process - a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.

series - a number of events of a related kind coming one after another.

after - in the time following an event.

There is no creator of a universe that wasn't created, so of course god didn't create the universe, silly.


*Humans Depend on God to Live*

Con concedes:
"If you make the claim that people are dependent on the sun, then I would argue yes..."
My response:
This affirms my burden to show that humans depend on god to live...a nice concession from Con, thank you.


Con continues:
"Yep, and my response is, there something much greater than the sun-- superhuman too."
My response:
Ok, yeah, there's lots of superhuman things, but to be clear, Con is agreeing that god is superhuman...so, who cares if other things are superhuman too?
Nothing in the definition of god says "must be the only superhuman thing."
That god is superhuman and Con concedes it is a major point.



*God Exists*

Con becomes an amnesiac:
"Sorry, I did not concede that God is a physical entity.  When did I concede that?" 
My response:
1st round.
"The sun is a physical entity in this universe. It is composed of matter."-Con
Yes Con, since you've already agreed that I, like the Egyptians, worship the sun, praise be unto hydrogen, and you agree that this entity is physical, you've affirmed the resolution for me.
Thanks again Con.


Con asks:
"Curious, why don't you worship Earth? 
My response:
Sometimes I do...I'm sorry was this supposed to be a relevant point negating that my god is worshiped?
If so, it sucked.
So what if other things are worshiped for being superhuman?
Why does there have to be only one, again?


Con gets ignorantly errant:
"Having one or two super-human abilities does not a God make. Sorry."
My response:
Actually, by your own doing, that's exactly what it makes...sorry.
You agreed to the definition of superhuman and god, Con.

superhuman - having greater powers than humans have.
god - a superhuman existence

I demonstrated countless examples of the sun, praise be unto hydrogen, having greater powers than humans have, and that exactly does a god make.
Thanks for playing.


Con continues:
"I can name a whole host of things that a human can do that a sun can't do."
My response:
So?
This doesn't make god any less superhuman, because all of those things that god can do that humans can't.
Even if humans have supersolar powers, it wouldn't negate that the sun, praise be unto hydrogen, has greater powers than humans rendering it superhuman.


Conclusion

God exists and humans depend on god to live, just ask Con.
Published:
Sorry Magic Mike,  you've done nothing to prove that the Sun is a God.  All you've done is proved that you think it's a God.
You fail to understand the basic definitions, like "contingent".  You stretch it to mean what you want.   Nice playin with ya.  You have no grounds to stand on.

1.  you think dreams/ideas/thoughts have a physical existence.  Yet you can't describe them physically.  YOu have to point to other things, and not the dreams/thoughts themselves.
2. You stretch definitions to fit what you want.  

Likewise, you think the "God" simply means has some greater powers than a human.  No, there is more to a God then just that. The mighty elephant is stronger than any man.  One can say it has super-human strength. But i stand by my statement, having one or a few powers greater than a human does not a God make.  Sorry.  It doesn't work like that.   

God exists and humans depend on god to live.  That I believe.  What you haven't proven is this:  the sun is a God.  The sun is a god in your mind.  I get that.  However, a key thing to remember is simply because you think it doesn't make it so.  Of course, as an atheist, I'm sure you believe Truth is subjective.  If you think it's subjective, one wonders why you engage in debate in the first place.  If truth is the subjective, then you have to believe the other person is right as well-- it's their subjective truth, right?

In case your curious, I've already won the debate. This post isn't an argument, it's me just filling up space to complete the round.  You know when the Spurs are winning by 25 points and there is like 2 minutes left in the game?  They would sit Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, etc and put in the scrubs, the benchwarmers.  My posts now are me just sitting Ginobili.  I've put in the benchwarmers.  The game is in-hand already.  Watch out though...back in the day even the Spurs bench players were pretty incredible.  





  
Round 4
Published:
Round 4

Thanks Con for that last...rant?...episode of whiny complaining?...mixing of off-topic nonsense?...display of childish assumptions and assertions?
Thanks for whatever that was Con.
While my favorite concessions to get are last round concessions, a 3rd round DIRECT concession from Con is pretty good.
Time to shine!



*God Exists and Humans Depend on God to Live*

I, as Pro, had to prove that a superhuman being worshiped for its powers over nature and human fortunes exists and is something that humans depend on to live.
I had indicated that the sun, praise be unto hydrogen, is god to me and my fellow heliolaters, BECAUSE we worship it for all it does, and it's obvious how humans are dependent on god.

How does Con refute the resolution?
By exactly agreeing with it.

Con concedes DIRECTLY:
"God exists and humans depend on god to live. That I believe."
My response:
Since 1) Con agreed to the definition of god in this debate, 2) Con also agrees that we heliolaters worship the sun, praise be unto hydrogen, which makes it god per the agreed-to definitions, 3) and right here, Con directly affirms the resolution, this is a major concession from Con so voters must vote Pro.

Con openly agrees with the resolution AND agreed to the definition of god.



Responding to Con's Nonsense

Con stomps his feet:
"Sorry Magic Mike,  you've done nothing to prove that the Sun is a God."
My response:
Sorry inferior debater, you've done nothing to negate that the sun, praise be unto hydrogen, is worshiped for having powers over nature and human fortunes, in fact you obliviously concede it over and over again by talking about how silly it is that I worship it.
So oblivious this guy.


Con whines:
"You fail to understand the basic definitions, like "contingent". You stretch it to mean what you want. Nice playin with ya."
My response:
I mentioned the phrase "contingent on" twice in this debate.

contingent on/upon
- occurring or existing only if (certain circumstances) are the case.

"Contingent on" also means "can exist only if" and I pointed out that the origin of life on earth was contingent on god and that humanity's current existence is contingent on god.
Con thinks that contingent can only mean "dependent on" so he doesn't understand what I'm saying about the origin of life happening ONLY IF the sun, praise be unto hydrogen, existed and provided the elements.

Life and humans are both contingent on god, even if Con is unaware of what contingent means in a philosophical debate.


Con goes off the rails:
"you think dreams/ideas/thoughts have a physical existence."
My response:
Sorry readers, I have no idea what this has to do with this debate...we're basically watching this debater unravel.
But while we're here, things that are contingent on the physical are physical themselves though they are not made of matter; they are contingent on matter, so are therefore physical.


Con continues:
"Likewise, you think the "God" simply means has some greater powers than a human"
My response:
I think that god means EXACTLY what both debaters agreed to the meaning of god to be, "a superhuman existence worshiped for its powers over nature and human fortunes."
So, with this in mind, yes, god, to be superhuman, would need some powers greater than a human.
Oblivious.


Con gets worse:
"But i stand by my statement, having a few powers greater than a human does not a God make.  Sorry.  It doesn't work like that."
My response:
The definition of superhuman that Con agreed to by accepting the debate is

superhuman - having greater powers than humans have,

The definition of god that Con agreed to by accepting the debate is

god - a superhuman existence.

Having any greater powers than a human EXACTLY does a god make and Con, by accepting this debate, agrees with that even if he doesn't understand how to debate properly.

Sorry, that's exactly how it works.


Con desperately tries:
"What you haven't proven is this: the sun is a God. The sun is a god in your mind. I get that. "
My response:
Not only have I proven that the sun, praise be unto hydrogen, is worshiped, Con has proven it over an over again too.
Con's called me out for worshiping the sun, praise be unto hydrogen, as god, Con referenced the Egyptians who worshiped god, and Con keeps repeating the error every round, right here as well, solidifying that my god is worshiped.

The mere fact that I've repeated the damn phrase about hydrogen so many times proves that I praise and worship the great hydrogen ball, and this satisfies the resolution.


Con mentions truth:
"Of course, as an atheist, I'm sure you believe Truth is subjective."
My response:
a) I'm not an atheist, I'm a heliolater.
b) Even if I reject the god claim made by countless religions, I still believe there are objective truths.


Con speaks foolishly:
"In case your curious, I've already won the debate."
My response:
Here's one last thing I've learned from debate.
The person who claims "I've already won," is always insecure, uncertain, cowardly, inferior at debating, and the actual loser.

When children know they're losing, they stomp their feet and say that they're winning.
Thanks for the concession Con.

Maybe I'll prove that your god isn't real in a different debate...it'll be fun to watch you squirm to try to demonstrate such a ridiculous god.
Hahahaha, Con looks funny when he squirms.



Conclusion

Thanks everyone, vote Pro.
Published:
lol.  Votes don't matter to me.

FACT #1 - Non-physical, non-material things exist.  Some examples of these non-physical, non-material things are ideas, thoughts, dreams, concepts, etc.  We know these are non-physical, non-material because

           a)  One can not describe in physical terms the thing (idea, thought, dream etc) itself.  Science can not measure these thigns (ideas, thoughts, dreams) because they do not have any physical components
                  1.  As a result, one has to resort to describing or observing the "effects' or by-product, so to speak

If you believe this is false, it should be easy to point to scientists etc that have proven that ideas, concepts or dreams have a physical component to them.  I'm waiting.  

FACT #2 - matter had ot have been created by something that is non-matter (im-material).  See other arguments.

If you believe this is false, then you are basically going against logic, since logic tells us that everything we observe could not create itself-- it needed something else to create it.  It is dependent, dare I say "contingent" (LOL) upon something else.  


It follows that something non-physical, non-material (which we know non-material things exists) had to have created the universe and it's Sun.

Thus, this something else is worthy of worship than the Sun.  


     

Added:
Damn! I was going to vote on this...too late i guess....jeez what did Magic do to piss those voters off? Wow, such egregious ignorance of the definitions and rules...ballsy votes.
Added:
--> @Ramshutu
You @'ed me about 2 pages and 0.4 flamewars ago. Don't really know if you're still interested in a response from me or Virt, but here's mine.
I see what you're saying. For my part, I had perceived Pro's "additions to definitions" in his R1 to be a mere clarification of the preexisting definitions. I also saw comment #34.
Added:
--> @Ramshutu
"and a self professed smart guy"
When have I ever said that?
Come on man.
Instigator
#189
Added:
--> @Ramshutu
"I actually think you need to spend time on reading comprehension."
We're done here.
Instigator
#188
Added:
--> @Wylted
Yeah: no, I don’t do that.
At this point you only seem to be able to shout at me for how biased I am, without specifically being able to name an instance.
It’s like you’re accusing me of being a thief without even being able to tell me what I’m supposed to have stolen, and can’t even given any actual reasons why you think I stole anything in the first place.
Added:
--> @MagicAintReal
I actually think you need to spend time on reading comprehension.
When you continually state that I’m holding a position, which through my entire RfD and multiple posts I clearly justify why I do not hold that position: it kinda makes me think you’re not interested in facts, but you’re just interested in soothing your own ego. Seriously, you keeping telling me that I’m
Weighing arguments in one way, when I clearly and specifically show otherwise in my RfD.
I’ve voted for you, and against you. I’ve voted for you in scenarios where I didn’t feel your morally deserved it, and against you when you did - when the arguments warranted such a position.
You’ve commented very positively on several of my RFDs on your debates - but it seems my RFDs, based on the same process and methodology and weighting as this one are only considered to be “excellent” by you when they happen to come down in your favour.
You dont seem interested in valid votes - the fact that you’ve demanded I should have rejected cons arguments because of arguments you did not make demonstrates this - you seem solely fixated and outraged that I didn’t vote for you. I’m fair and excellent when I vote for you, and outrageous and biased against you when I vote for someone else.
This is not about fairness, or reasonableness of votes - this is down your own personal animosity that someone dared to vote against you - outrage I can only presume to be stoked due to your own inability to accept your own shortcomings.
That’s not my problem, and I will simply direct you to both my RfD and failing that, my Avatar, which clearly expresses my personal level of concern for your outrage.
Added:
You aren't too dumb to know where you twisted the analysis and inserted your own judgement to cheat in order to co trol the results of the debate. Your like the thief who is caught who asks "if I stole how did I do it?" You intentionally used retarded logic to interpret the debate in a way that was preferravle to the side you wanted to win prior to even reading the debate
Added:
--> @Wylted
Actually, a more accurate assessment is that I asked what was wrong with the vote, you made some generic complaints, could not point to any specific examples of where I did anything wrong and the most you’ve ever provided was saying that I didn’t consider something that was literally explicitly described and considered in my RfD. You then ran away and continued to make generic accusations without any specific substance.
Added:
--> @Ramshutu
I think you need to have a chat with the mods.
Instigator
#183
Added:
--> @MagicAintReal
Again: your ignoring everything I’ve said. Over and over.
The definitions in the info were accepted.
You argued different definitions.
Pro challenged your definitions.
Asserting that they were accepted omits the key fact that the definitions you said you were using were not accepted.
You keep trying to wriggle our of that noose.
Added:
I already explained to you how tabula rasa voting works. You ignorantly plugged your ears and claimed you did it, despite overtly using your own mind to interpret things on this debate and repeatedly
Added:
--> @Ramshutu
"Asserting the definitions are valid and accepted over and over and over again is not an acceptable rebuttal "
Except that you agreed to using those very definitions from the info...and Con conceded using the words from the info, so no assertion needed.
Nothing about adding definitions necessitates changing the other definitions and they weren't changed at all in fact.
Just to be clear, using the definitions in the info, you have no way to see that Con using those words from the info to concede the resolution necessarily requires a voter using those same info definitions to take that as a concession...there is no other way to see it.
Still no definitions from Con?
Noted.
Instigator
#180
Added:
--> @Wylted
I’m still waiting for some specific issue or error you think I’ve made on any of the votes you’ve taken issue with. So far it’s all generic “your votes are terrible” and arbitrary “your biased”. I’ve asked you a few times now.
If you can’t tell me what’s wrong with the vote, I’m assuming you can’t see anything wrong with the vote.
Added:
--> @MagicAintReal
You changed the definitions. This is a fact. You added a definition. Fact. You modified the definition of God. fact. Any argument you’re not make where you claim the definitions were not changed, is not based on fact.
You argued based on these new definitions. This is a fact.
You proved the sun met the definition of God based upon your new definitions - not the definitions in the info. This is a fact.
Con challenged your definition as absurd, and as it is factually established that challenging your new definitions is valid - this argument is valid.
All of these points are unchallenged by you, and you have addressed only in nonsensical assertions, and deliberate misrepresention.
There are, easily a thousand different arguments you could make to argue why I should have ignored cons argument and accepted your argument as true - however not a single one of them was presented by you in your debate.
Asserting the definitions are valid and accepted over and over and over again is not an acceptable rebuttal because you argue from a position that ignores that the definitions you are using have been modified from the ones in the info.
As you make none of the relevant arguments in the debate - you lose.
Worst still, you’re supposed to be not only a grown man, but a teacher and a self professed smart guy: and yet almost every response you’ve made refuses to acknowledge this basic set of facts - you changed the definitions, you offered no defense of the new definitions, those new definitions were challenged.
Simply sticking your head in the sand and acting as if I’m not considering the thing I’ve literally mentioned in every single post is not the actions of a rational human being.
Added:
--> @Wylted
Finally some reasonableness.
It just sucks that the mods can't do anything about them.
Instigator
#177
#4
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
As a preface, head moderator bsh1 has already publicly confirmed that additional “rules” included in the debate description are not binding on debaters, voters or moderators. Only the actual rules of the site as called upon from the Code of Conduct are enforceable;
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/755?page=1&post_number=4
Pro, as instigator, makes the outrageous claim that the sun is god, the sun exists, the sun is an important element of the ecosystem upon which humans rely, thus, humans “depend on god to live!” Clearly, nobody denies that the sun exists or that our ecosystem relies on it, so this debate hinges on if Pro can angrily intimidate his opponent into accepting his claim that the sun is god… which didn’t go too well to say the least!
First, Con begins by stating that he will be paraphrasing famous theologian Thomas Aquinas (thus indirectly using a source) to demonstrate that the idea of a “god” is more complex and detailed than his opponent is trying to paint it. Instead, he points out that the sun is merely a physical object, not even a sentient object at that. To this end, he draws attention to serious philosophical flaws in Pro’s claims, such as his claim that the sun created life on earth, when all the sun actually did was produce light which was part of the ecosystem that sustains life, not the actual creator of life itself. Pro’s only real rebuttal was to angrily demand that his opponent strictly obey the definitions and “rules” he created for the debate (some of which didn’t even appear until after the debate started, meaning they weren’t even included in the actual description). Con easily rejects this and continues.
Next, Con demonstrates the flawed logic within the “definitions” Pro uses. Pro claims that the sun is “superhuman” because of the size and shape of the sun. Con points out that if the definition of “superhuman” is allowed to be as broad as any feature or trait that humans lack, then it would be all too easy to use that same logic to extend godhood to any object. For example, since an elephant is “stronger” than a man, this gives the elephant a “superhuman” trait according to Pro’s definition, and thus an elephant would be a “god” by such a definition. Con also points out that the earth itself shares many of the same traits which Pro attributed to the sun (size, shape, essential for life, etc), so why doesn’t Pro also worship the sun? Again, Pro had no real rebuttal to any of this, other than to become increasingly angry and repeatedly demand that his opponent obey his special “rules” and definitions. Con once again refuted the idea that he was in any way obligated to obey these "rules" and definitions, particularly since Pro was clearly stretching the definitions to fit his own personal meaning, rather than the commonly accepted and intended meaning of the words.
The final nail in the coffin of Pro’s argument comes from Pro himself. After becoming increasingly hostile and visibly angry throughout the whole debate, Pro finally loses his temper in the final round and descends into one of the most childish insult frenzies I’ve ever seen that didn’t take place on a kindergarten playground. This obscene behavior is not only enough to cost him the conduct point for the debate, but if the best rebuttal he can think of in the final round is to launch childish ad hominem at his opponent, it rather solidly proves that he never had a real argument in the first place.
Arguments and conduct both go to Con.
#3
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
1.) conduct: RFD for conduct in comments , and was deemed sufficient.
2.) arguments. This RFD is updated - removing all information provided for feedback as follows:
The definitions pro uses throughout are defined —IN HIS OPENING ROUND—, and cannot possibly be considered agreed to. At no point can I consider any of the definitions pro presented in the CONTENT OF HIS DEBATE to be automatically assumed to be true.
As a result I cannot and will not consider pro to have successfully defined and won his position by unilateral fiat in this case - the definitions used are clearly defined in pros CONTENT and subject to challenge.
Additionally - the CoC clearly states that I must not consider debate comments or other votes in the RFD (which I don’t), but even in the comments there is no example where con accepts the definitions, so I must as a voter assume that the newly presented definitions that pro uses HAVE NOT BEEN ACCEPTED.
Everything PRO said, and argued in every round concerning the sun being god is accepted as unrefuted and true in every single argument he produced based on his definitions - predicated on those definitions being correct and accurate.
However, as explained - challenging these definitions is relevant and valid.
Cons primary argument, used throughout is that pro is using his definitions incorrectly, that he is stretching definitions, and that doing so has absurd results: this is his primary argument used throughout. The standout example of this, where con points out that the way pro is using his definitions is so absurd, it could be used to show that elephants or the earth are god, con points out throughout that this clearly isn’t what the definition —shared in Pros opening round — are intended to mean, and clearly explains that pro is stretching the definitions to suit his case - rather than those definitions being correct.
Given cons knockout argument that pro is misusing his R1 posted definitions: pro must show that he is using the definitions correctly, and that the definitions he uses - as worded and as used - are correct as per cons objections
Pro singly and solely rejects all of cons argument out of hand either by saying that the definition is accepted and can’t be challenged or by simply repeating the definition that pro is challenging.
As a rebuttal I find this WHOLLY insufficient as an argument and result in any rational voter having to view pro as completely dropping cons primary contention and effective kritik - and thus surrenders the entire contention he is making. As he offers no other argument - pro must be considered to have failed to meet the essential burden of proof he agrees to.
Pros only other argument - that con conceded, is not sufficient in my view. I don’t consider that cons statement supporting God, is a statement of personal belief, not a specific or implicit concession. To be a concession, con needs to accept or acknowledge pro has met the specific contention of the debate - which con falls far short of. And is thus not accepted.
#2
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Con's arguments were, at bottom, a rejection of Pro's definitions. And rejecting Pro's definitions violates the terms of the debate.
Rule #1:
"The definitions below are agreed to by accepting the debate and both debaters agree, by accepting, that all voters must use these definitions when weighing their vote and that if the voters do not use these definitions, both debaters will publicly request that the mods remove the vote."
Some of Con's arguments (paraphrased; forgive me):
"The sun, being made of matter, could not have created itself. Or life on Earth."
- Pro's definition of God says nothing about creation, so in the context of this debate, being a creator is not a necessary component of godhood.
"The sun is not God and cannot logically be called God."
- The sun actually does meet Pro's definition of God as worded.
"Pro has not proven the sun is God."
- I do believe he doesn't have to. It's not what the debate is about. He just has to make sure the sun meets his provided definition of a god. And it does. From there, all he has to prove is a) the sun exists and b) humans depend on the sun to live. I don't feel that Con really met Pro on either of those points. He spent most of his time arguing that the sun is not God, mostly by trying to bring his own definitions and outside presuppositions into the debate.
So I award arguments to Pro.
Pro's sources -- Oxford Dictionaries, Wikipedia, theplanets.org, Universe Today, National Academy of Sciences, etc -- were sufficient to back up Pro's definition of "god" and to back up the solar properties Pro argued fulfilled said definition of "god" (superhuman, power over nature, power over human life). Weighed against Con's sources in support of his argument, which were nil, I award sources to Pro.
Conduct a tie. Neither side was exactly genteel. Yes, this is another debate from Mag employing sneaky wording and very selective definitions, but on the other hand I feel like this should be fairly clear to anyone who reads the debate description thoroughly. It's all laid out there. Plus other members give warnings. But people still accept the debates without seeming to understand that they will have to compete while handcuffed. I am not without some sympathy. It seems the only real way to escape defeat is to not accept the debate.
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
Observation 1: This debate pro needs to prove 2 things: God exists, and that humans depend on Him to live. Pro does not have to argue which God is real, just that a God exists and depends on him to live.
Observation 2: By accepting the debate, one necessarily accepts the rules and definitions provided. If one does not agree with those rules or definitions, they need to work that out prior to accepting the debate.
Pro's main argument was that the sun meets his definition of God and humans depend on the sun to live, ergo God exists. Con's main rebuttal was that the sun is a created object and thus is not God. However even if we grant that, con makes a huge blunder by arguing that God exists, only it is not the sun:
"Yep, and my response is, there something much greater than the sun-- superhuman too - more deserving of worship than the Sun. In fact, the sun depends on IT for it's existence."
Con needs to show that God does not exist OR that humans do not depend on Him to live. He fails to meet this burden. By arguing that the sun is not God but God is God, he concedes the resolution.