Instigator
Type1 avatar
Points: 4

The Hebrew tribes are extinct, therefor "Jews" are not a race but are in fact followers of a Hebrew race cult known as "Judaism"

Finished

The voting period has ended

After 1 vote the winner is ...
That1User
Debate details
Publication date
Last update
Category
Religion
Time for argument
Three days
Voting system
Open voting
Voting period
One week
Point system
Four points
Characters per argument
30,000
Contender
That1User avatar
Points: 7
Description
No information
Round 1
Published:
For thousands of years, the religion of Judaism was practiced by the Hebrew tribes. The religion espouses a racially supremacist ideology which claims that the Hebrew race is superior, and chosen by God himself to rule the earth. Only in the last few hundred years have the words "Jew" and "Hebrew" meant the same thing. These modern Jews have little to no proven connection to the Hebrews genetically, the majority of their DNA coming from Europe or from Arabs depending on the group. So why do people practice a religion which claims an extinct group of tribes is the master race and the vast majority of their ancestors are savages? It is because Jews have in-group preference and a certain collective status in society, by inventing this new race, Judaism becomes more than a religion but an elitist race cult where you get to actually choose your race by converting to a religion. Think about this, I could convert to Judaism right now, marry a Jewish woman who is genetically German and my kids would be considered Jewish by RACE even if they were ATHEISTS. How diluted is the actual Hebrew blood in this race cult? There are Jews who are literally Aryan by DNA, and would be considered part of the master race by Hitler himself if looks and DNA is all he had to go on, but because enough non-Hebrew people converted to the so called "race" of Judaism apparently they are part of an entirely different master race. The one that claims every Jew will have 1000 gentile slaves when the messiah comes.
The irony is truly astounding.
Published:
The Jews are both an ethnic group and a religious group that have been recorded throughout history, what ignited the Jewish diaspora was the Destruction of Second Temple by the Romans in 70 CE, which caused the Jews to go all over the world, hence the European and Arabic DNA. To be ethnically Jewish, one parent, (traditionally the mother), has to be Jewish, so the person is still of Jewish descent despite intermarriage. There have been Jews in the region of Palestine even in the time of the Umayyads, the Crusades, and the Ottoman Empire. The Jews have also experienced oppressive laws throughout history, from not being allowed to own property in Europe in the Middle Ages, being a target by Crusaders in the Crusades, being blamed for the Black Plague, progroms in the Russian Empire, and the Holocaust, which wiped out 6 million Jews. Throughout history, being Jewish has been a disadvantage yet the Jewish people and the Jewish identity has lasted. For a cult to be a cult, it has to be highly centralized with a clear leader and a strict set of beliefs. The fact that Judaism has multiple sects with different beliefs counters this idea that Judaism is a cult. (See Orthodox Jews, Reform Jews, and Secular Jews)
Round 2
Published:
The Jews are both an ethnic group and a religious group that have been recorded throughout history
"For a more scientific take on the Jewish origin debate, recent DNA analysis of Ashkenazic Jews – a Jewish ethnic group – revealed that their maternal line is European. It has also been found that their DNA only has 3% ancient ancestry which links them with the Eastern Mediterranean (also known as the Middle East) – namely Israel, Lebanon, parts of Syria, and western Jordan. This is the part of the world Jewish people are said to have originally come from – according to the Old Testament. But 3% is a minuscule amount, and similar to what modern Europeans as a whole share with Neanderthals." 


"Throughout history" is incorrect. The concept of Jews as an ethnicity is relatively new, they had to change their name because they are no longer Hebrews by race anymore than a caucasoid homo sapien is a neanderthal.

To be ethnically Jewish, one parent, (traditionally the mother), has to be Jewish,
Genetically the mother is not a Hebrew, or the father. I don't give a fuck about tradition, it is a scientific fact that Jews have their actual race and then they have a socially constructed "Jew" label which society pretends is a race because a tiny fraction of their DNA is semitic.

For a cult to be a cult, it has to be highly centralized with a clear leader and a strict set of beliefs. The fact that Judaism has multiple sects with different beliefs counters this idea that Judaism is a cult. (See Orthodox Jews, Reform Jews, and Secular Jews)
Bullshit, they have both thought leaders and a strict set of beliefs. Even the so-called Jews that are atheists will get hyper aggressive and intellectually dishonest on you with 1984-like doublethink and blind rage if you question their status as a Jew or insult Judaism. Many of them literally do not know the difference between religion and race and will call you an anti-semite for criticizing the Jewish religion specifically.




Published:
The strongest evidence for Jews are the Mirahazi Jews, who are Jews of the Near East and have been around since Biblical times to the present, among these are Iraqi Jews who are descended from the time of the Babylonian Captivity

"Iraq’s Jewish history dates about 4,000 years to the birth of the biblical patriarch Abraham in Ur, where there is a shrine and archaeological digs. Long after Abraham left for what was then called Canaan, generations of Jews were sent to exile in Babylon, between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in what is now Iraq." 


In Babylon, the Jews went through a religious and cultural Renaissance, and it is seen as a major birthplace for Judaism as a religion, with many sacred texts being written there, especially the writing of the Talmud 
Round 3
Published:
In Babylon, the Jews went through a religious and cultural Renaissance, and it is seen as a major birthplace for Judaism as a religion, with many sacred texts being written there, especially the writing of the Talmud 
It's funny you should mention this, because according to this Judaism was born at the precise time the Hebrew tribes starting mixing with other races and losing their status as an actual race. Let it be stated that the Judaism of today is not the same as that before the time you are referring to, which is the time when Judaism evolved into what closely resembles it's current form. The concept that Judaism itself is a race is even newer, Because even the Talmud recognises the difference between a Hebrew and a Jew. If you are a Hebrew you are expected to be a Jew traditionally, but Judaism was always considered a religion and Hebrew was considered a race, a race which no longer technically exists and which only has a tiny presence in the DNA of modern ethnic Jews.


Published:
The source that pro linked was born out a desire for Jews not to be a race, because if Jews were a race, then Zionists would be perceived as racist, and the author does not want Zionists to be seen racists, rather than actually disputing the evidence presented in "“Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People,” by Harry Ostrer.

In the book "Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People", Harry Ostrer presents genetic evidence that the Jewish people share a common "distinctive genetic signature", which gives evidence that the Jews are a race at least genetically speaking, definitely an ethnicity, since all Jews share a common DNA distinct from all other groups, despite intermarriage with other groups, the Jews are able to maintain Jewish DNA.


In his review of the book, David Rodman states, "Harry Ostrer, a medical doctor and professor of genetics,  describes what the science of genetics has to say about the orgins and relatedness of Jewish communities the world over in this well-written and fascinating survey. In a nutshell, repeated (and replicated) scientific studies- whether of disease, chromosomes, or blood groups-demonstrate that not only are the overwhelming majority of Jews genetically related, but also they descend from common Middle Eastern ancestors. Genetic testing, in other words, offers robust support for the traditional narrative of Jewish history" 


Genetic studies confirm that Jews are both genetically related and originate from the Middle East, which gives evidence that Jews can be considered a race, certaintly an ethnic group by DNA. 
Virtuoso avatar
Added:
--> @Coreyinthehouse
Vote Reported: Coreyinthehouse // Mod Action: Removed
Points awarded: 5 points for arguments, conduct, and grammar
Reason for decision:
I hold KawaiiKame had been conduct because some of the statements by Type1 seems very biased against Jews as a whole, I'm not saying they're antisemetic by any means but they seem to have something against the culture seeing as they brought up "every Jew will have 1000 gentile slaves when the messiah comes." And "Even the so-called Jews that are atheists will get hyper aggressive and intellectually dishonest on you with 1984-like doublethink and blind rage" this is stereotyping them as a whole, and doesn't belong in debates IMO.
The grammar and spelling was a tie, as I didn't notice any issues in either side.
Both sources seem to be fairly reliable, however one slated by Type1 called establishing them as a race "dangerous."
This IMO, is ridiculous and therefore I hold Kame's are more valid. Establishing a religious descendancy as a race is far from dangerous, as what exactly determines race is gray in the first place. The only way this would be "dangerous" is if the religious itself was "dangerous."
Kame's arguments are more convincing IMO largely because he cites more reliable sources and references more facts.
Reason for mod removal: This vote fails to meet the COC vote standards
#1
Ramshutu avatar
#1
Criterion Pro Tie Con Points
Better arguments 3 points
Better sources 2 points
Better spelling and grammar 1 point
Better conduct 1 point
Reason:
To prove the contention - pro has to provide evidence that there is no distinct racial grouping for Jews. The only real arguments provided for this, is that a particular ethnic group of Jews in Europe only has 3% genetics related to the Middle East.
On provides a link to a particular type of Iraqi Jew which appear to have the specific link that pro claims doesn’t exist.
The important aspect here is that if pro can use one subset of Jewish individuals to prove there is no race, I see no reason why con can’t do the same - especially when qualifying criteria of the resolution are not made clear for either side.
Given that neither side really makes clear what they define a race as; I have to detemine this on my own: and in my view cons final argument - that inherent genetic markers and ties to a particular region would necessarily be sufficient to determine race. As pro offers no such alternative - I have to side with con - though I would encourage con to raise this earlier in the debate.
As a result - arguments to con:
All other points tied.