Instigator / Pro

Owen_T

1465

rating

debates

55.71%

won

Topic

#5809

The Christian God is a Cruel God

Status

Finished

The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.

Winner & statistics

Better arguments

Better sources

Better legibility

Better conduct

After not so many votes...

It's a tie!

Tags

Religion

Parameters

Publication date: 11.18.2024 04:19AM
Last updated date: 01.18.2025 11:50PM
Type: Standard
Number of rounds: 4
Time for argument: One week
Max argument characters: 8,000
Voting period: One month
Point system: Multiple criterions
Voting system: Open

Contender / Con

Mall

1389

rating

418

debates

44.74%

won

Description

In this debate we will use definitions from Merriam Webster.

We'll also assume that the events and rules in the bible can be taken literally in all aspects, unless it implicitly states otherwise, though we will not assume that any moral teachings or similar is true, so obviously things like "god is good" because that's the point of this debate.

Ask questions in the comments of course.

Round 1

Owen_T

11.19.2024 12:04AM

Pro

The bible lays it out pretty clearly.

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.” (John 14:6)
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 5:1)

It is not your needs nor your morality that get you into heaven. It is your willingness to comply with God. The bible also makes it clear that not going to heaven (going to hell) is an eternal and painful experience:

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’” (Matthew 25:41)

“The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest day or night.” (Revelation 14:11)

“Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

The bible says that an amazing person who has devoted their life to the greater good, and also happens to be bundist, will be tortured for literal eternity. I fail to see how that is something a loving god would do. Infact, I think that is something a very cruel god would do.

Mall

11.23.2024 01:46PM

Con

"The bible lays it out pretty clearly. "

I'm glad you went there. I was going to ask the opposing side for book chapter and verse that reads "The Christian God is a Cruel God".

Let's read what the opposing side stated .

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.” (John 14:6)
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 5:1)"

Read those scriptures. Couldn't read "cruel" in there. So if the scripture isn't saying it , who is saying it? Who is adding it?

I have scripture where it teaches "perceive we the LOVE OF GOD", see.

See, out of the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established.

"The bible says that an amazing person who has devoted their life to the greater good, and also happens to be bundist, will be tortured for literal eternity."

Please provide the scripture that stated this or briefly acknowledge that this is your opinion, thought and interpretation.

"I fail to see how that is something a loving god would do. Infact, I think that is something a very cruel god would do."

God is not cruel just by you thinking so.

1 John 3:16

"Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."

Perceive we the love of God, so that said"love of God ". Not cruel of God but the love of God.

I ask the opposing side, is it love of one person to lay down his her own life for another?

What else is of this God?

Leviticus 19:2

" The Lord also told Moses to tell the people of Israel, “You must be holy because I, the Lord your God, am holy. "

So a holy God, not cruel.

Looking for that blessed hope one scripture says.

In the book of Titus, chapter 2 and at verse 13.

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"

So a great God, not cruel.

I believe over there in Isaiah , 9 and 6 it said the mighty God.

All of these things to describe God, couldn't find "cruel" written anywhere.

Let me ask you.

Is kindness the opposite of cruel?

Round 2

Owen_T

11.30.2024 01:46PM

Pro

Forfeited

Mall

12.04.2024 01:16AM

Con

I done stumped the opposing side. I rest my case.

Round 3

Owen_T

12.07.2024 12:06AM

Pro

Sorry for the forfeiture, I'm back with my response.

I'm glad you went there. I was going to ask the opposing side for book chapter and verse that reads "The Christian God is a Cruel God".

Let's read what the opposing side stated .

"
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me.” (John 14:6)
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 5:1)"
Read those scriptures. Couldn't read "cruel" in there. So if the scripture isn't saying it , who is saying it? Who is adding it?

I fail to quite understand this argument. First of all, you seem to have looked over the whole "thrown into a lake of fire" thing.

If I'm not wrong, you're using this line of logic:

The bible does not say it's cruel. Therefore, it's not. Saying "I yeet babies of cliffs" is not saying "I'm cruel." Though the ladder statement can be inferred.

You then use this logic to build your next argument. Your logic here is:

The bible says God is loving; therefore, he must be loving.

Now let's put this in a different context; The politician's site says he's a great guy, so he must be a great guy.

See the issue?

Mall

12.12.2024 11:20AM

Con

"I fail to quite understand this argument. First of all, you seem to have looked over the whole "thrown into a lake of fire" thing.

If I'm not wrong, you're using this line of logic:

The bible does not say it's cruel. Therefore, it's not. Saying "I yeet babies of cliffs" is not saying "I'm cruel." Though the ladder statement can be inferred. "

Understand in this question. Are you saying God in scripture is cruel or is the scripture saying that?

Also you did not answer my other questions which could help in your understanding.

I ask the opposing side, is it love of one person to lay down his her own life for another?

Is kindness the opposite of cruel?

So when you answer these questions, it'll drive us in the direction to a better understanding of my point with your own honest answers by your very own .

"You then use this logic to build your next argument. Your logic here is:

The bible says God is loving; therefore, he must be loving.

Now let's put this in a different context; The politician's site says he's a great guy, so he must be a great guy.

See the issue? "

Yes the issue is your relativism. God is cruel according to you and your opinion. But you have to prove that God is. Your opinion is according to you , not to fact.

I'm not giving you my opinion. I can only give you the facts. The only facts we have is what is written in the scripture about God concerning God of that scripture.

I didn't say "God must be loving". It's not according to me, it's according to fact or what we know and all we know is what is written.

Otherwise we're just critiquing your opinion all day which is nothing to argue. It doesn't prove or demonstrate anything factual but showcases your thoughts, views, interpretation, etc.

But objectively, matter of fact, is God in scripture cruel?

If you say yes, show me where in scripture because you talking about the God of scripture so why not have the scripture say that?

Do you see where you're stuck?

If you can't demonstrate a God of scripture to be this and that with the scripture itself that speaks of this God, how can we know this is objective fact?

We don't rely on what you say . What you say is subjective and non fundamental. You're making a claim about the God of scripture, how else do we verify the veracity of your claim except by testing it with the scripture itself?

This is where you trapped yourself.

A better argument would of been to actually demonstrate with scripture.

Now I don't tend to help individuals I'm debating but I'm going to make this more challenging and interesting.

You could of made a case starting with Isaiah 45:7.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

The LORD here is God Almighty, the one that is HOLY. The scripture doesn't even say "Christian God". That's made up. Scripture says "You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy.

So is HOLY God cruel? How can this holy God create evil?

As the late bishop S.C. Johnson would say I believe "come and get me".

Round 4

Owen_T

12.19.2024 11:20AM

Pro

Forfeited

Mall

12.19.2024 11:50PM

Con

The opposing side forfeited the questions and the debate.

The debate is over.

Sunshineboy217

11.23.2024 10:29PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Christian God cruel at times and not cruel at other times?

WyIted

11.18.2024 03:00PM

-->

@Lemming

Fair enough

Lemming

11.18.2024 12:11PM

-->

@WyIted

Yeah, but sometimes people have a fixed idea of a definition in their head before a debate,
And will accuse another person of shifting the goalposts.

Or just be disappointed, as a debate about what cruelty is, may not be what they wanted to debate.

WyIted

11.18.2024 12:07PM

-->

@Lemming

How debate works is that both sides in this debate will determine through debate what qualifies as cruel

Lemming

11.18.2024 11:35AM

-->

@Owen_T

What qualifies "The Christian God is a Cruel God"?

If he contains a sliver of cruelty, does that count as a cruel God?
Does it need to reach 51% cruelty?
Do kind cruelties count?
Does God need to make 1+1=3 for them to be considered God?