Instigator / Pro
21
1395
rating
22
debates
20.45%
won
Topic
#830
Catholicism is not True Christianity
Status
Finished
The debate is finished. The distribution of the voting points and the winner are presented below.
Winner & statistics
Better arguments
9
12
Better sources
8
8
Better legibility
4
4
Better conduct
0
4
After 4 votes and with 7 points ahead, the winner is...
oromagi
Tags
Parameters
- Publication date
- Last updated date
- Type
- Standard
- Number of rounds
- 5
- Time for argument
- Three days
- Max argument characters
- 30,000
- Voting period
- One week
- Point system
- Multiple criterions
- Voting system
- Open
Contender / Con
28
1922
rating
117
debates
97.44%
won
Description
No information
Round 1
Pro
#1
I am writing this because I am tired of people blaming Christians for the evil the Catholic Church has done throughout its history. Catholicism is not real Christianity since they do not base most of their beliefs on the Bible, but on tradition. Historically there are many Bible-based denominations since the earliest days of Christianity.
Con
#2
Thanks to GeneralGrant for instigating this topic.
THESIS: "Catholicism is Not True Christianity"
Pro’s argument might be fairly faulted for excessive
brevity, lack of warrant, and insufficient definition.
DEFINITIONS:
Let’s define two terms:
Definition of Catholicism:
DEFINITIONS:
1
: roman catholicism
2
: the faith, practice, or system of Catholic Christianity
Let’s note here that Mirriam-Webster defines Catholicism as
inherently Christian. (Let’s also note
that this debate will treat Catholicism and Roman Catholicism as synonymous designations
for the same religion.)
1
: the religion derived from Jesus Christ, based on the Bible as sacred scripture, and professed by Eastern, Roman Catholic, and Protestant bodies
2
: conformity to the Christian religion
3
: the practice of Christianity
Here too, Catholicism is a Christian religion by ordinary
definition.
BURDEN of PROOF
Con submits that Pro retains sole burden of proof in this debate
for instigating a claim that clearly challenges our ordinary English definition
of Christianity. If Con can show that
Pro’s claim lacks warrant and/or disprove Pro’s evidence, then readers of this
debate should favor Con in voting.
NO TRUE SCOTSMAN FALLACY
Pro’s thesis does not only suffer from unwarranted
generalization but also serves as a textbook example of one kind informal
logical fallacy, the appeal to purity also know as the “No True Scotsman”
fallacy. Wikipedia offers the following
example:
BURDEN of PROOF
NO TRUE SCOTSMAN FALLACY
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
Person A: "But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Con: “But Roman Catholics are Christians by definition.”
Pro: “But no true Christian is Roman Catholic.”
- Pro has failed to failed to identify which version,
translation, and edition of Bible is being used for this purity test. There is no monolithic, well agreed book that
may serve as “THE (one and only) Bible,” so Pro must define and defend the text
by which Roman Catholics fail the standards of Christianity. To maintain consistency, Pro’s defined
version of the Bible must be accepted by the true Christians cited.
- Who or what is the defining authority for Christianity? After all, no version of the Bible nor denomination
of Christianity existed in the time of Christ. Wikipedia offers, “Christians believe that
Jesus Christ is the Son of God and savior of all people, whose coming as the
Messiah was prophesied in the Old Testament.” That definition certainly includes Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox,
Mormons, etc. as Christians and conforms to our normal understanding. On what authority does Pro rely to define the
proper biblical following and exclude Christian tradition?
- Pro specifically excludes Roman Catholics from True
Christianity but includes at least 7 other denominations. All 7 denominations are part of the Protestant tradition and qualify as “Radical
Reformation” responses to both Roman Catholicism and the Magisterial Reformation
of Luther & Calvin. What is the biblical
yardstick that makes some Christians true and other Christians false?
- When and where does Christianity end and True Christianity
begin?
- Was St. Paul a true Christian?
- St. Ignatius is credited with the first recorded use of the word,
“Christian.” Was St. Ignatius a true
Christian?
- Was Constantine the Great a true Christian?
- Was St. Thomas Aquinas a true Christian?
- Was Martin Luther a true Christian?
- Was Mother Theresa a true Christian?
- Was Fred Phelps a true
Christian?
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
CHRISTIAN VALUES
This
debater asks Pro: what is the value to Christianity in setting a narrow standard
for Christianity according to a stricter biblical interpretation. Aren’t more people more likely to enjoy the
benefit of Christ’s example if the definition of Christianity is more
inclusive?
Round 2
Pro
#3
You have used man's definition of Christianity, but not God's definition. His definition for a Christian is one who follows Him and obeys Him and has been saved from their sins by Him. True Biblical Christianity does not put man's ideas over God's, but conforms to God's requirements to be a Christian. You stated above that there are many Bibles. However, this is not true, there is only one. I disagree with some newer translations of the Bible, but the overall message is still clearly seen in all the versions of the Bible. I have gone through the Catholic Bible and have seen no major differences between their and my KJV.
I will address some key doctrines and practices of the Catholics that go against what Scripture says.
The Supreme Authority in the Church
The New Testament Apostles established only two offices in the local churches: elders and deacons. A comparison of the relevant passages (1 Tim. 3; Titus 1-2; 1Peter 5; Acts 6; and 20:28-32) shows that the terms "elder" (or presbyter, from the Greek word presbuteros), "pastor" (or shepherd), and "overseer" (or bishop, from the Greek word episkopos) all refer to the same position of leadership. The Apostles gave no instructions for higher levels of leadership over multiple churches or over all churches in a large city or over the whole world. The New Testament indicates that the 1st century local churches were to be independent congregations under the Lordship of Christ and the authority of the Word of God.
In contrast, as we have seen in the historical developments of the spread of Christianity in Western Europe, some bishops began to claim authority over more than one congregation, then over a city, and then over the worldwide church, and along the way cardinals, archbishops, and patriarchs were added to provide leadership under the absolute monarchy of the papacy.
The Catholic Church claims that the pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra ("from the chair of Peter"); when he speaks as the supreme teacher of the church he is incapable of teaching any false doctrine. Likewise, the bishops do not and cannot err when they teach religious and moral doctrines. This Magisterium (consisting of the pope and the bishops) is endowed "with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals." (Catechism
of the Catholic Church #890) And, it is claimed, God has given this Magisterium
the task of providing the correct interpretation of the Scriptures for the rest
of the church. (CCC #85)
How does
the Magisterium accomplish this task of interpreting Scripture without error?
First, it includes in the Catholic version of the Scriptures the apocryphal
books, (CCC #120) which are not accepted as the Word of God by either Jews or
Protestants. But in those books, the popes and bishops find justification for
some Roman Catholic doctrines, such as praying for the dead. Second, the
Catholic Church equates unwritten "Tradition" with written Scripture.
She "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the Holy
Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored
with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence." (CCC #82) This is because "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God." (CCC #97) In Roman Catholic doctrine, "Tradition" (Capital 'T') is the Church's "doctrine, life, and worship." It is "a current of life and truth coming from God through Christ and through the Apostles to the last of the faithful who repeats his creed and learns his catechism." (CCC #78) Abd "Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word." (CCC #113)
So the Catholic Church leadership relies heavily on man-made ideas and practices accumulated over the centuries as the basis for their interpretation of the Word of God.
The pope also claims his supreme authority by asserting that he inherited it from Peter who, according to official doctrine, was the bishop of Rome and the first pope over the worldwide church. "The Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered." (CCC #882)
But nowhere does the New Testament make either of those papal claims (infallibility and authority), nor does it teach the infallible authority of the bishops or describe any kind of magisterium. In fact, the Bible never says that Peter was in Rome (though we know from church history that he was martyred there), which is strange if he was the head of the Church in Rome. And if he was the bishop of Rome, it is equally strange that when Paul wrote his letters to the church in Rome in about A.D. 57, he greeted many believers by name (Romans 16), but does not mention Peter. How could Paul overlook greeting the bishop, especially since his letter was giving very authoritative teaching to the Church there? Furthermore, Paul says that the Christian Church was built on the foundation of the Apostles (plural) and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone (Eph. 2:19-20).
It is also significant that in Peter's two letters written to all Christians in Asia Minor he describes himself as an Apostle and bondservant of Jesus Christ (1 Pt. 1:1; 2 Pt. 1:1), not as bishop of Rome. In Peter's first letter he humbly exhorts elders of the various churches as "a fellow elder," not as a supreme elder in authority over them and says they should not "lord over" the Christians that they shepherd in their flocks under the Authority of the Chief Shepherd, Jesus Christ (1 Pt. 5:1-4). In 2 Pt. 3:2, he admonishes his readers to follow the commandments of Jesus and "your apostles" (plural), not his writings as uniquely authoritative.
It is true that Peter gave the "birthday sermon" of the Church to Jews in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). But it was the Apostles (plural: Acts 6) whom led the Church there in the earlier years and there is not Biblical evidence that Peter was the supreme leader of the Apostles then or any other time. Peter did lead the first Gentiles to faith in Christ in Caesarea (Acts 10), but when questioned about this by the Apostles a few days later in Jerusalem, Peter did not have supreme authority (Acts 11:1-18). When Philip led the first Samaritans to Christ, the Apostles in Jerusalem did not send Peter alone, but Peter and John together to confirm
that the Samaritans were full members of the Church (Acts 8:5-17).
When Paul
and Barnabas reported to the Church in Antioch about the many Gentiles coming
to Christ, a dispute arose with other Jewish Christians
who contended that Gentiles needed to be circumcised. The Church then sent Paul and Barnabas to the Apostles and elders (note: both are plural words, Acts 15:2, 15:4) in Jerusalem to resolve this matter. Peter was there and spoke, but so did Barnabas, Paul, and James. If anyone had supreme authority there, it was James, for it was after he spoke that "the apostles and elders with the whole church" decided to send Paul and Barnabas back to Antioch with instructions about Gentile believers (Acts 15:13-22). Peter had no unique authority in this situation.Three years after Paul's conversion he went to Jerusalem and met Peter and James, the Lord's half-brother (Gal. 1:18-19). Then after 14 more years of ministry among the Gentiles, Paul went to Jerusalem again with Barnabas and Titus to explain to the Church there about their ministry among the Gentiles (Gal. 2:1-9). Paul says that God had committed him to take the gospel to the Gentiles, just as God had committed Peter to take the gospel to the Jews, and Paul saw hi apostolic authority as equal to Peter's Paul names James, Peter, and John (in that order, again suggesting that James was the leader of the Church in Jerusalem) as ones who "seemed to be pillars" in the Church (Gal. 2:9). Those three together gave Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, signifying their equal authority in the churches, but with James, Peter, and John focusing on evangelism to the Jews and Paul and Barnabas going to the Gentiles.
But some time later Paul found Peter at the church in Antioch and had to confront and rebuke Peter in front of the other Christians for his hypocrisy, caving into peer pressure from Jewish Christians, and by his behavior undermining the truth of the gospel (Gal. 2:11-14). This is hardly consistent with the idea that Peter was the head of the whole Church. Peter obviously responded positively to this humbling rebuke, evidenced by his affirming statement that Paul's writings were Scripture (2 Pt. 3:16).
There is no basis in Scripture for the papal claims of infallibility and supreme authority over the worldwide Church. The claims come from a long series of men grabbing more and more power, starting with Leo I in A.D. 440, and it has led to a massive amount of political, moral, and theological corruption through the centuries.
Because the Catholic Church denies the supreme authority of Scripture, through its popes and bishops, it has been able to proclaim numerous doctrines that are contrary to Scripture. Clearly, this is a case of faith in man's word over faith in God's Word.
But the Apostles made it perfectly clear in the New Testament that the primacy belongs to Jesus Christ alone and is not shared with any man. "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" (Col. 1:18).
The Bible is also clear that the "traditions" spoken of by the Apostles must be the same as the teaching in their New Testament writings, not contradictory to it or adding to or taking away from the doctrines in those books (2 Thess. 2:15, 3:6; 1Cor. 11:2). Because of the dangers of false prophets, false teachers, and false gospels (Mat. 24:4; Gal. 1:6-9; 2 Pt. 2:1-3), Scripture repeatedly proclaims its supreme authority. Believers are not to turn to the right or to the left from God's Word (Josh. 1:6-8) but walk in the ancient paths of the biblical prophets (Jer. 6:16-19; Is. 8:20). Jewish and Christian fathers were expected to know the Scriptures and teach them to their children (Deut. 6:1-9; Eph. 6:4).
Jesus taught His followers (not just church leaders) to treat the Word of God as their necessary daily food (Mat. 4:4), and that Scripture was the means by which God would produce holy maturity in their lives (Jn. 17:17). His followers were to reject any man-made traditions that contradicted Scripture (Mk. 7:6-13) and to test every truth claim against Scripture (Acts 17:11) because demonic spirits would seek to lead believers astray (1 Jn. 4:1). Paul also warned that men would arise in the Church speaking perverse things to draw Christians away from the truth. So he urged people to follow the Word of God (Acts 20:28-32). This repeated insistence on the supreme authority of God's Word is a reflection of the fact that He has magnified His Word above His name (Psalm 138:2).
I still have other examples that I will share with in the next round because of the lack of time I have.
Con
#4
Thanks, GeneralGrant, for your detailed response.
Unfortunately, most of your argument fails to support your
topic or the issues raised by Con in R1.
Overall, Pro is arguing that Roman Catholics are wrong about
some points of doctrine. But this is not
a debate about whether or not Roman Catholics are correct in their beliefs,
only about whether or not Roman Catholics are correctly termed Christians.
We can see that the mere presence of doctrinal differences
is not sufficient to warrant exclusion from the community of Christians, since we easily discern evidence of doctrinal differences between, say, Methodists
and Baptists but in that case Pro has allowed that both doctrines are Christian in spite of
at least one denomination being wrong about at least some things.
We can also see that some denominations have not been
addressed although some of those are clearly more separated doctrinally than Roman
Catholics are from say, Methodists (The Church of Latter-Day Saints, for
example or Eastern Orthodoxies).
In R2, Pro focuses on Roman Catholic church authority and hierarchy:
The Pope and papal claims to infallibility, holy appointment, etc. do not
accord with Pro’s reading of the Bible. This debate gains nothing by defending the institution of the papacy or its legitimacy
according to scripture. Con is
interested in discovering from Pro why the hierarchies of the Roman Catholic disqualify
that denomination from the ranks of Christianity.
DEFINTIONS:
Pro faults Con’s offered definitions as human definitions,
not divine. Pro argues that his
definition of Christianity comes from God and is therefore superior.
His definition for a Christian is one who follows God and obeys God and has been saved from their sins by God. Let’s note that Pro offers no biblical citation here. In fact, the bible does not get around to defining Christians or Christianity and since the bible is Pro’s exclusive source for the word of God that means God does not define Christian either, right?
Methodists
are ok with baptizing babies into their church while Baptists believe the bible
mandates adult baptism after confession. From a Baptist perspective, Methodist practices are not entirely biblical. From a Methodist perspective, Baptists must
have some of the bible wrong. Certainly,
one or both denominations must be wrong. Both denominations can’t be strictly
biblical yet Pro does not mind including both denominations in the community of
Christians in spite of obviously unbiblical beliefs by one or both. Why do some unbiblical beliefs warrant
exclusion from Christianity while other unbiblical beliefs do not? Wouldn’t it be more ideologically consistent and
less prejudicial for Pro to say, “here is my denomination and our interpretation
of the bible, all other denominations and interpretations are non-Christian?” Why are Roman Catholics singled out?
His definition for a Christian is one who follows God and obeys God and has been saved from their sins by God. Let’s note that Pro offers no biblical citation here. In fact, the bible does not get around to defining Christians or Christianity and since the bible is Pro’s exclusive source for the word of God that means God does not define Christian either, right?
Let’s be sure to note that the
word “Christian” only comes up three times in the New Testament:
“…So, for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch” (Acts 11:26).
“Then Agrippa said to Paul, ‘Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?’” (Acts 26:28)
“However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name” (1 Peter 4:16).
We see that all that the bible definitively tells us about
the nature of Christianity is from Peter, who tells Christians to be proud of
the name.
SOURCES
Pro identifies the KJV, the King James Version of the Bible
as properly Christian version. Likewise,
Con prefers KJV although for perhaps different reasons. KJV is by far the most poetic and majestic
English language translation to read. However, the language is also now 400 years old and presents many of the
same kinds of problems and ambiguities as a Shakespearean play. The translators of the time were quite
limited in their knowledge and access to ancient Hebrew.
“Although the King James Version may sound very lofty and dignified in its language (thou, thee, ye, thine), it can be very difficult to read since the English language has changed substantially in the last 400 years. Likewise, since the King James Version was written, scholars have discovered numerous other manuscripts from which more accurate and current translations have been made.
Since the late 19th century, progress made in Scripture scholarship has produced versions of the Bible that challenge the previously undisputed prominence of the King James Version. Specifically, for Catholics, the King James Version follows the Protestant pattern of not including the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament that are recognized by Catholics: Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, 1 & 2 Maccabees (as well as portions of the Books of Esther and Daniel). Readings from these books appear in the Catholic Lectionary at various times of the liturgical year. Likewise, these books contain references to concepts that are familiar to Catholics but rejected by Protestants such as prayer for the dead and intercessions of saints and angels.”
BURDEN of PROOF
In R1, Con argued that Pro retains sole burden of proof for
the claim, “Catholicism is not True Christianity,” and Pro has not disputed this
argument. Con does not need to prove
that Roman Catholicism is particularly Christian but Pro must prove that Roman
Catholicism is not properly thought of as a Christian denomination.
TRUE SCOTSMAN
In R1, Con implicated Pro for creating an ad hoc standard
for Christianity. Pro’s standard is neither
well defined or well warranted. In R2,
we can understand that the legitimacy and the authority of the papacy is one primary
exclusionary principle that hedges out Roman Catholics. The suggestion is that there may be more standards
introduced in further rounds. Pro’s sole
authority in the application of these standards is his personal interpretation
of God’s intent as discovered in one poetic translation of one ancient, deeply ambiguous
book.
Con's implication is not refuted by Pro. “True” Christian stands, at best, as a
fallacious sub-set of Christian beliefs.
TRUE CHRISTIANITY
Pro has identified the Bible on which he relies. For authority, Pro relies on God’s intent as extracted from the KJV Bible which in turn relies on God for authentication. This is fairly classic circular reasoning:
We can trust God because the Bible tells us so.
We can trust the Bible because God tells us so.
Con rejects Pro’s claim to authority on the subject on the
basis of failure to substantiate by any evidence so far proffered. For Pro’s authority to hold up, at least God
or the Bible must be demonstrated to be true beyond doubt.
Con asked “what is the biblical yardstick that makes some
Christians true and other Christians false?” Pro ignored this direct question.
Con submitted a list of famous Christians and asked Pro to
identify which of these qualified as true Christians (in an effort to draw a line
around this undefined set). Pro also ignored
these questions.
EVIL
In R1, Pro justified his debate because of the blame true Christians
accrue unjustly for the evil acts of Roman Catholics. Con asked Pro to name some of those evil acts
but in R2, Pro failed to respond.
NICENE CREED
In R1, Con printed the Nicene Creed, the Roman Catholic statement
of beliefs recited at every mass. Con
asked Pro to identify which statements contradict the bible, Pro demurred in
R2.
VALUES
Con asked Pro what advantages are gained for Christians
generally by redefining Christianity more narrowly than the common application.
Con also asked Pro if a narrow definition of Christianity
was consistent with Christ’s famously inclusive, not exclusive example.
Pro has ignored both these points.
Going forward into R3, Con is perfectly willing to concede
that some beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church do not accord with some beliefs
of some other Christian denominations as well as some interpretations of some
versions of the Bible by some Christian denominations. Since there is more than one denomination in
Pro’s set of beliefs that merits the appellation “true Christianity” some
discordance is clearly permissible within this exclusive set. Therefore,
Roman Catholics are not excluded only for reasons of doctrine or the doctrines
which don’t accord bear some special distinction in the case of Roman Catholicism-
either way, Pro has failed to make this key link to thesis and is also dropping
Con’s points like hot rocks.
Con has defined Christianity in such
a fashion as to include any ordinary understanding of “true” Christianity. Pro has a different definition of “true”
Christianity, for which readers are mostly left to deduce out from Pro’s critique.
Pro has identified the Bible on which he relies. For authority, Pro relies on God’s intent as extracted from the KJV Bible which in turn relies on God for authentication. This is fairly classic circular reasoning:
We can trust the Bible because God tells us so.
Round 5
Con
#10
Thanks to GeneralGrant for conceding this debate in deed if not in word.
Con recommends that voters award arguments to Con. Pro argued that some Roman Catholic doctrines failed to accord with Pro's interpretation of scripture. Con pointed out that only one Christian denomination at best could accomplish perfect accordance with scripture and yet Pro includes multiple denominations into the set of True Christians. Therefore, the definition of True Christian must hinge on more than incorrect doctrine but Pro has never responded or illuminated the difference that distinguishes.
Pro only responded to Con's argument on two points: preferred Bible and authority. Pro has offered that his (unexplained) definition for Christianity comes from God which Con supposes we are meant to infer from Pro's citations in the absence of any link to argument.
Con recommends that voters award conduct for triple forfeit.
Thanks in advance for the voters' kind consideration.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
Conduct to con for the forfeit.
So; the main issue here revolves around being a true Christian and what it means. Pros “No true Scotsman” was well pointedlut. Pro needs to come up with a high quality and substantial and objective reason to believe that Catholics cannot be considered “true” Christians.
Pros primary contention revolve around listing points of Dogma and claiming that Catholics interpretation is wrong and his is correct. Con - to his credit - points out this issue, and that there is no definitive translation that is more correct than any other pointed it and justified for one to judge. Most importantly con points out Catholics are Christians, and while there are differences in beliefs, he points out that this does not mean they are necessarily not “true” Christians. As pro did not defend any of his claims against this criticism - cons argument stands and thus con gets arguments too.
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
50% FF
Criterion
Pro
Tie
Con
Points
Better arguments
3 point(s)
Better sources
2 point(s)
Better legibility
1 point(s)
Better conduct
1 point(s)
Reason:
I would like to thank both opponents for this debate.
POOR CONDUCT
Pro has ff the majority of the rounds of the debate which is poor conduct
I ask the other voters to consider this when voting on conduct as well.
Unnecessary bump
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Which is why it is consistent
Islam is differnt because it has its own way of getting to heaven
Hinduism has a different salvation
So does Buddhism
Judaism has a different way of salvation
Christianity has a different one
Catholicism fits smack-dab into Christianity, which makes it a denomination
Highlights
>>Logically, there's nothing wrong with that. But you have to be consistent.
If you start picking and choosing which ones are exempt from the logic, then you're committing special pleading.
>>This is the problem. You want to apply one type of logic to Judaism, but another type of logic to Catholicism. You need to be consistent.
>>That's a no true Scotsman fallacy. You're arbitrarily defining what you subjectively think a Christian should be. But you don't get to decide what a Christian is.
>>The reason I'm hostile is because I'm 30. I'm old enough to know that being polite is not always the answer. Some people are given too many allowances for their nonsense and need a dose of reality.
>>It's like saying A because B and Not A because B but C. But A because B and C but D. etc. etc. It makes the logic arbitrary.
Last comment add it in the context of what is being discussed.
It's like saying A because B and Not A because B but C. But A because B and C but D. etc. etc. It makes the logic arbitrary.
Semantically speaking, it's incoherent because it conflicts with other logic that you have.
The whole point of it being a logic is that it has to be consistent. If you can't apply the logic to other things without contradictions or vacuities, then your logic is flawed.
No, because you’re trying to choose what my logic is
That reductio ad absurdum only works if you choose an arbitrary point, but as I explained, the point of salvation isn’t arbitrary since it’s the whole point of religion
So you refuted yourself three times :)
...ok
By the way, the reductio ad absurdum that you performed, was on your own logic. Which is comical when one stops to think about it.
just because you say those words doesn't mean you did them correctly. You didn't use the proper logic. You just used a dis analogy
Reductio ad absurdum, I’ve aids that three times lolol come on
You can only say that if you presuppose that atheism is true, if the disciples really were following Jesus and he was divine then Christianity is most definitely a new religion because it was these random people that spread the word of Christ, a new message
I just agreed that all people agree that humans exist. Now tell me how that proves anything? I'm not a donomination because I don't hold any of your actual tenants. Believing in humans is not a religious tenant.
The point was reductio ad absurdum...like I said...
Did you read the rest of the comment? Lol there’s was a lot more, it’s basically a gold mine dude go get rich
I'm not choosing it to be a denomination, it is.
It's not an original religion that came out of nowhere.
It's an evolved version of Judaism which evolved from a more primitive form of Judaism by mixing with Zoroastrianism.
So every Abrahamic religions derives from a mixture of primitive Judaism mixed with Zoroastrianism and it's anyone's guess which one of those came first.
You already said that before.
Yes they both believe that humans exist. Congrats.
Believing that humans exist is not a religious tenant. I don't believe humans exist because of a decree that a holy book made.
I believe their are humans because I have senses and somebody told about this thing called a human which is an arbitrary label and I decided to use it for practical reasons. What's your point?
One would think that the way to salvation is, you know, the most important part to pick, and therefore isn’t arbitrary
But using reductio ad absurdum, I can turn that around on you
Christianity and atheism both share a belief that humans exist, because if they don’t, then you can’t believe nor not believe in God, so that means atheism is a denomination of Christianity
But that’s...wait for it...ABSURD
Lol I took too much joy out of that
But anyway, the way to salvation isn’t just an arbitrary fact because it’s literally the whole point of religion
And, besides that, even if we DID choose an Abrahamic God as the meeting point, you’ve still just randomly chosen Christianity to be a denomination
If that was the meeting point, both Judaism and Christianity’s would be under the umbrella of “Abrahamic God,” but Christianity wouldn’t be under Judaism’s umbrella, Judaism’s core belief is that Jesus isn’t divine, you can’t have a denomination that disagrees with the fundamental truth of its parent
So really, under your thing, they would be sister religions, not a parent and a denomination, which is pretty much what they are right now
You're just arbitrarily picking one thing. I can do the same with your logic. This is what you're not realizing. I can arbitrarily point out the fact that they all have the same god and make them all one group in that way and say that Christianity is just a denomination of Judaism.
You said I was full of...
No, I didn’t... Catholics is a Christian denomination because they both hold a base belief that Jesus is the way to salvation, Judaism isn’t because it doesn’t hold a base belief that Jesus is the way to salvation
It’s like pies and cakes, they both use eggs, flour, etc. (God), but one has a crust and one doesn’t (Jesus), Catholicism is just a specific kind of pie, but you’d never call cakes and pies the same thing
That’s about as consistent as it gets lol
I didn't call you any names. The only thing I attacked was your logic, which is the nature of this dialogue.
Your argument shows a difference between the three and if that was your only argument then cool.
But that's not what you said before. It's not my logic that led you to the hard pill to swallow, it's your logic that did that. You wanted to lump the Christians into the Catholics using a standard but refused to use that standard where it applied in other places.
I'm not telling you not to be logical. I'm just telling you to use your logic consistently.
How about this
If it was proven that Jesus never existed, Christianity AND Catholicism would disappear, but Judaism would remain unaffected
Do you see what I mean now? Also literally nothing hinges on Judaism and Christianity being the same and since you’re an atheist I don’t know why you care so much lol
Calling someone names isn’t a “dose of reality,” it’s you resorting to petty insults in an insignificant matter, that’s the kind of behavior that makes people commit suicide dude, not cool, you don’t know if you could be the straw that breaks the camel’s back
Also nice happy belated birthday *confetti*
I am going to bed. I will see your answers in the morning.
They have the same bible. How do you know who is reading it correctly? What if their interpretation is what God wanted?
31 actually. I had a birthday recently
I know if it is true if it follows the Bible because the Bible is God's final word to man.
The reason I'm hostile is because I'm 30. I'm old enough to know that being polite is not always the answer. Some people are given too many allowances for their nonsense and need a dose of reality.
Are you morally good? I'm pretty sure you have told a lie or lusted or stole something.
Alright, so if God decides and not you, then how do you know which religion is the true Christians? What if God decided that he likes the child raping Catholics more? It's his decision, not yours. You have no say in the matter right?
Oops it deleted all the spaces I put to separate them XD failed diagram
This is my effort to draw a diagram because I'm a nice person :)
God
Judaism Christianity
No Jesus Yes Jesus
Catholicism
Works
See? Judaism and Christianity are on two different planes, I really don't understand why you're getting hostile lol you're 30 you should be the mature one xD
Ephesians clearly says, "Not by works." If you trust in works then you are not saved.
I don't think any religion is morally good. But I will say, that if I had to choose between being morally good on earth and being "good" because I prayed really hard but was a piece of crap on earth, I'd go with the former.
Like I said though, they're all crap. Judaism is probably the only Abrahamic religion that I can stomach to be perfectly honest.
Your right, I don't decide. God does. That is why He gave us His Word so we would know how to be saved.
They believe in both Jesus and works, but believing in Jesus, if I'm right, still gets you into heaven, that just means that they're unnecessarily believing in works
You're full of crap.
Are you really going to stand here as a "Christian" and tell me that you think God isn't the path to salvation? If that's your point then fine, I'll just let you sit in your bubble of contradictions and be done with you.
I've understood you just fine, I just don't accept it because it's all hog wash. You do these same back flips anytime somebody pins you down on your double talk.
Do you actually care about arguing honestly speed?
I am sorry to say, but Catholics actually do believe that salvation is only by works. I go out and share the gospel and the Catholics always say that the way to salvation is by being good.
First of all, it isn't that deep XD
Second, as I've explained multiple times, it isn't the same
If you wanted to say that Christianity and Judaism are both under an umbrella together then that would make sense, but otherwise, it's not the case
"They simply have different ideas about how to accept Jesus. This is not actually that simple. The Bible clearly says how to accept Jesus and it is clearly not by man's efforts. Therefore if they believe it is by man's efforts then they are not of God."
That's a no true Scotsman fallacy. You're arbitrarily defining what you subjectively think a Christian should be. But you don't get to decide what a Christian is.
The Jews actually were supposed to believe in Jesus as their Messiah since His coming was prophecied throughout the Old Testament, but they decided to reject their Messiah.
And now you're being salty because you don't understand what I'm saying
God isn't the path to salvation for Christians, Jesus is, "focusing" on the Jesus part is the whole difference
For Catholicism though they still believe in Jesus, so that makes them a denomination, if they believed in works ONLY, then they would be a different religion
But if you're gonna call me logically inconsistent because you can't follow along then just stop replying lol
The whole reason for the Protestant Reformation was to show that salvation was not by works, but by faith in Jesus.
Most people would have just admitted that their logic applies to all three and been done with it. The problem is that you have a horse in this race and you subjectively don't want to admit that your religion is a hand me down from the big daddy religion.
get over yourself if you want real knowledge.
Man Speed. This is the thing I hate about you. You just don't know how to be logically consistent. You double talk and double talk and it just makes you look silly.
I could say the same thing with Judaism, because you're too dense to realize that your logic will never get you the result you want here without contradicting yourself.
I could say that all three of them have the same path to salvation (God) But the Christian and catholics focus on the Jesus part an unnecessary amount.
You're not realizing that they all believe in the same God because Jesus is God and God is Yaweh.
Honestly, you're kind of boring me now. Are you going to actually try and be logical, or is this just a game to you?
I don't come on here to play games. I come here to have honest discussions.
They simply have different ideas about how to accept Jesus. This is not actually that simple. The Bible clearly says how to accept Jesus and it is clearly not by man's efforts. Therefore if they believe it is by man's efforts then they are not of God.
You didn't even read my response yet lol
It's the same logic
No, because they both believe in Jesus, who is the path to salvation
Catholicism simply focuses on human works an unnecessary amount
This is the problem. You want to apply one type of logic to Judaism, but another type of logic to Catholicism. You need to be consistent.
Okay then, Catholics and Christians have different paths to salvation. So that means they're different right?
That's not true. They believe in the same jesus as the Christians but they simply have different ideas about how to accept Jesus.