The Trinity Problem

Debates: 32

Posts: 2,125

01.08.2024 02:44AM

What's confusing about the Trinity honestly?

What is illogical about the Trinity honestly?

I find this idea that the Trinity is both confusing and illogical to be...............well, confusing to me.

It's not that hard to grasp the concept.

Think of it like this:

You are a 1 being. You are 1 person. You are not 3 persons.

But you have 3 parts:

A physical body

A logical mind

A spiritual soul

Now just because your soul is different from your body, and your mind is different from your soul, doesn't mean that you are three separate persons. You are still one being.

If you can be like this, why can't God be like this in a more complex form?

n8nrgim

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n8nrgim

01.08.2024 02:50AM

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@YouFound_Lxam

that's an excellent analogy, but at least to our human minds, it's a paradox or contradiction. jesus is god, the father is god, but the father isn't the son. superficially it's an illogical syllogism.

some lesser good analogies compared to yours. a three leaf clover. each person of the trinity is in a different dimension but still god, thus can be considered same but different. the oceans of water, are all water and thus one, but each ocean is distinctly its own thing... as can also be compared to the body of believers, different parts, one body, united to jesus. a comparison that is also great that i made is.... like a father is both a son, father and brother... so too is God a father son and spirit in one, united mystically to humans by the son.

i think it's fair to give your analogy, but it's just an analogy. the spirit and body are distinct, and not the same, even if they are united in one being. it's illogical to say they are the same and different at one time. on this side of eternity, i think it's more accurate to say there's good ways to describe it, but it's a paradox, or even a contradiction.

Topic's author

Debates: 32

Posts: 2,125

01.08.2024 03:14AM

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@n8nrgim

that's an excellent analogy, but at least to our human minds, it's a paradox or contradiction. jesus is god, the father is god, but the father isn't the son. superficially it's an illogical syllogism.

To be completely fair, saying:

My spirit is part of me; my body is part of me, but my body is not my spirit.

is in my opinion the same thing as saying:

Jesus is God, The Father is God, but the Father isn't the Son.

Because if we look at the Christian theology of the Triune God, we see in its complexity, that the Father can't exist without the Son, the Son can't exist without the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost can't exist without the Father.

At least according to Christian theology, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are in perfect unity with one another. One can't exist without the other.

Now that raises the obvious question of why one can't exist without the other, and I like to use the same analogy, but in a different way:

You need your logical mind, physical body, and spiritual soul, to be considered a human being.

A logical mind cannot exist without a body to exist in, a body cannot exist without a spirit to exist in it, and a so forth.

Thats the way I understand it, but we are talking about a supernatural being that is beyond our comprehension, so no one (not even me as a Christain) can fully grasp the fullness of God.

i think it's fair to give your analogy, but it's just an analogy. the spirit and body are distinct, and not the same, even if they are united in one being.

Yes, that's my point. They are distinct in nature, but they make up the same being.

it's illogical to say they are the same and different at one time.

Well, they are though.

The spirit is not the body; the body is not the mind, the mind is not the spirit, but when you put them together, they create 1 distinct being.

Debates: 1

Posts: 47

01.08.2024 03:23AM

I'm ok with the body soul spirit analogy as long as we understand the Persons of the Trinity aren't parts to a whole.

Topic's author

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01.08.2024 03:33AM

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@Morphinekid77

I'm ok with the body soul spirit analogy as long as we understand the Persons of the Trinity aren't parts to a whole.

Of course.

Like for instance:

The soul can exist without a body or a mind.

The logical mind can exist without either.

A body can exist without either as well.

Debates: 1

Posts: 47

01.08.2024 03:36AM

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@YouFound_Lxam

Right, just wanted to point that out in case any Theology noobs were lurking about.

16 days later

Debates: 0

Posts: 390

01.24.2024 06:23PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

YouFound_Lxam,

As usual, you remain the dumbfounded pseudo-christian FOOL now in denying Jesus' Triune Doctrine which is BLASPHEME!!!!!!

YOUR HELL BOUND QUOTE RELATIVE TO THE TRINITY DOCTRINE: "I find this idea that the Trinity is both confusing and illogical to be...............well, confusing to me."

The Triune Doctrine of Jesus is not confusing to a TRUE Christian like myself, but to you being at best as continually shown, "a pseudo-christian," Jesus and I can see that your mental state is not worthy to Christianity, whereas you should give up your faith and not be a Christian anymore, understood Bible fool?!

The Triune Doctrine Proposition Number One of Three simply explained for your inept mind set:

There are three divine persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet these three divine persons are distinct from one another: the Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit. However, there is exactly one God (1 Timothy 2:5), therefore Christ is His own Father and His own Son. The Holy Ghost is neither Father nor Son, but both in spirit. The Son was begotten by the Father, but existed before He was begotten. Christ is just as old as his Father, and the Father is just as young as his Son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but He is of the same age as the other two!

Now Bible fool YouFound_Lxam, the first proposition of three relative to the Triune Doctrine shown above is simply explained, and if you can't comprehend what it FACTUALLY says, then you are nothing but a dumbfounded pseudo-christian, and an embarrassment to the faith AND this Religion Forum!

HOW DO YOU PLEAD IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP?:

Debates: 0

Posts: 8,322

01.24.2024 06:30PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas

Mr.BrotherD.Thomas wrote @ YouFound_Lxam: However, there is exactly one God (1 Timothy 2:5), therefore Christ is His own Father and His own Son. The Holy Ghost is neither Father nor Son, but both in spirit. The Son was begotten by the Father, but existed before He was begotten. Christ is just as old as his Father, and the Father is just as young as his Son. The Holy Ghost proceeded from the Father and Son, but He is of the same age as the other two!

See! Not that difficult is it, YouFound_Lxam ? 😂

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Posts: 8,322

01.24.2024 06:39PM

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@n8nrgim

@YouFound_Lxam

@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas

n8nrgim @YouFound_Lxam: that's an excellent analogy.

"the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" said Rabbi David Kimhi - " therefore, with reference to this god whom you call Father, Son and Holy Spirit, - that part which you call the Father must be prior to that which you call Son, for if they were always coexistent would have to be called twin brothers.

More over, if the Son is the Father what of Mary getting pregnant? Is this not an incestuous congregation? The Father has sex with the mother to conceive the Son who is also the Father.....so technically the Son, who is also the father, had sex with his mother"...

#10

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Posts: 390

01.24.2024 07:28PM

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@Stephen

Stephen,

As you have explicitly shown in your ever so revealing post #9, and I as a the ONLY TRUE CHRISTIAN UPON THIS FORUM because I have had to accept your Bible facts over the years where I don't hide from them like Miss Tradesecret, YouFound_Lxam, n9nrgim, and the like does at all times!

Lest we forget as well, Jesus became His own Father and a bastard child (manzar) through true Hebrew tradition because Joseph was NOT His paternal father! Furthermore subsequent to Jesus "celestially impregnating" His own Mother Mary through His Spirit as godly incest, He not only became Mary’s son, but like you said, His own Father as as well in being God.

Barring the fact that Joseph tried to hide the fact that his wife Mary was not pregnant by him, he silently wanted to divorce her. (Matthew 1:19) I have had to try and answer these truthful biblical axioms over the years in making others TRUE Christians as well, and when I do, the non-believers of my faith that I am talking to just walk away and shake their heads in laughter in myself being able to accept the foundation of Jesus in the beginning of Christianity! :(

It is truly hard to be a TRUE Christian in the 21st Century if ALL of the facts of my faith are brought forth.

#11

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Posts: 8,322

01.24.2024 08:07PM

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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas

Lest we forget as well, Jesus became His own Father and a bastard child (manzar) through true Hebrew tradition because Joseph was NOT His paternal father! Furthermore subsequent to Jesus "celestially impregnating" His own Mother Mary through His Spirit as godly incest, He not only became Mary’s son, but like you said, His own Father as as well in being God.

And with Jesus being "born of woman" he too was riddled with sin.

Barring the fact that Joseph tried to hide the fact that his wife Mary was not pregnant by him, he silently wanted to divorce her. (Matthew 1:19) I have had to try and answer these truthful biblical axioms over the years in making others TRUE Christians as well, and when I do, the non-believers of my faith that I am talking to just walk away and shake their heads in laughter in myself being able to accept the foundation of Jesus in the beginning of Christianity! :(

Indeed, Brother D. Joseph wanted to put some distance between the "virgin" and himself. I wonder if he he was punished in anyway for "disbelieving" in the first instance?

It is truly hard to be a TRUE Christian in the 21st Century if ALL of the facts of my faith are brought forth.

And I, being an "hell bound atheist" can only offer you my deepest and sincere sympathies.

#12

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Posts: 390

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10277/posts/422225

01.24.2024 08:45PM

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@Stephen

@YouFound_Lxam

Stephen,

Uh, do you think that YouFound_Lxam will be addressing our TRUTHFUL posts about Jesus as listed below, or will he just RUN AWAY from them as usual, and where he still wants to be called a Christian, NOT!!! We shall see if he can find his "big boy" pants to respond!

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10277/posts/422226

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10277/posts/422227

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10277/posts/422229

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10277/posts/422230

#13

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Posts: 8,322

01.25.2024 06:13AM

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@Mr.BrotherD.Thomas

Stephen,
[A]
Uh, do you think that YouFound_Lxam will be addressing our TRUTHFUL posts about Jesus as listed below?

https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10277/posts/422225
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10277/posts/422226
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10277/posts/422227
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10277/posts/422229
https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/10277/posts/422230

[B]
or will he just RUN AWAY from them as usual?

#14

Debates: 3

Posts: 5

01.26.2024 11:20PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

Well consider this:

1. The Father is God
2. The Son is God
3. The Holy Spirit is God
4. The Father is not the Son
5. The Father is not the Holy Spirit
6. The Son is not the Holy Spirit

Trinitarian Christians accept all of these propositions whilst denying polytheism, partialism, and modalism and trying to preserve a logical framework of identity.

But given the above how could we accept all of those propositions and criteria and deny the conclusions of tritheism or logical contradiction?

#15

philochristos

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Posts: 21

philochristos

01.27.2024 03:34AM

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@Ball-425

I think you've definitely capture what the Trinity consists of in your 6 statements, although you need to add a seventh: "There is only one God." The way trinitarians avoid tri-theism and contradiction is by making a categorical distinction between "personhood" and "being."

To illustrate this, there are some beings that are not persons at all. A rock, for example, is a being, but it's not a person. A human, on the other hand, is a being that is also a person.

If you tweak #4, 5, and 6 of your statements to say, "The Father is not the same person as the Son," etc., then you can deduce the Trinity from those 6 statements.

From 1, 2, and 3, combined the the 7th statement I mentioned above, it follows that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same God. That is to say, they are the same being.

From 4, 5, and 6, it follows that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons.

Since "being" is categorically distinct from "person," it is possible for one being to be three persons. I mean, if you can have one being (like a rock) that is zero persons, another being (like a human) that is one being and one person, there shouldn't be any problem with there being one being that is three persons. It would be a tri-personal being, i.e. one being that is three persons. It's strange, but it's not contradictory.

To have a contradiction, you'd have to say one person is three persons or that one God is three gods, but that's not what the Trinity is. To have tri-theism, you would have to say there are three beings, i.e. gods, but that is also not what the Trinity says.

If the Trinity said that God is one in the same sense that God is three, then that would be a contradiction. But the Trinity says God is one in the sense of being one being, and God is three in the sense of being three persons, then God is not one and three in the same sense. Remember, the law of non-contradictions says that two propositions that contradict each other cannot both be true at the same time and in the same sense.

Topic's author

#16

Debates: 32

Posts: 2,125

01.28.2024 04:20AM

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@Ball-425

Well consider this:

1. The Father is God
2. The Son is God
3. The Holy Spirit is God
4. The Father is not the Son
5. The Father is not the Holy Spirit
6. The Son is not the Holy Spirit

Trinitarian Christians accept all of these propositions whilst denying polytheism, partialism, and modalism and trying to preserve a logical framework of identity.

But given the above how could we accept all of those propositions and criteria and deny the conclusions of tritheism or logical contradiction?

This doesn't contradict itself though.

The Father is God.

The Son is God.

The Holy Spirit is God.

But like you said:

The Father isn't the Son, nor the Son the Holy Spirit, nor the Holy Spirit the Father.

This doesn't contradict itself at all. Let me use my analogy again:

Your physical body is you.

Your soul is you.

Your logical mind is you.

But.

Your physical body is not your mind.

Your mind is not your soul.

Your soul is not your physical body.

It all makes logical sense.

#17

Debates: 3

Posts: 5

01.28.2024 05:48AM

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@YouFound_Lxam

This doesn't contradict itself at all. Let me use my analogy again:

Your physical body is you.
Your soul is you.
Your logical mind is you.

But.

Your physical body is not your mind.
Your mind is not your soul.
Your soul is not your physical body.

I understand but, in your analogy, (assuming) a human being consists of distinct but unified components: body, soul, and mind. However, these components are not considered distinct persons in the same sense that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are within the Trinity. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are claimed to be as distinct persons within the Godhead, not components of one unified being or parts to a whole. In the Christian understanding of the Trinity, each person (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is fully and completely God, not merely aspects or attributes of God.

For example:

Classical identity principles stipulate that if A = B and B = C, then A must equal C. In your analogy, the components of a human being (body, mind, soul) are equated with the whole being. However, in the Trinity, the persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) are not parts of a whole but distinct person who share the same absolute identity whilst preserving their own individual identities.

None of the terms above are used equivocally and I am willing to opt for using "Godhead" to avoid ambiguity of using "God" as a count noun or a proper noun

Topic's author

#18

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Posts: 2,125

01.28.2024 07:39PM

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@Ball-425

Yes, I completely agree with what you said.

So where is the problem.

#19

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Posts: 5

01.29.2024 01:24AM

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@YouFound_Lxam

I am just saying that is disanalagous to use the body, mind, and soul in comparison with the trinity and that my previous concerns still have credence

Topic's author

#20

Debates: 32

Posts: 2,125

01.29.2024 06:12AM

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@Ball-425

I am just saying that is disanalagous to use the body, mind, and soul in comparison with the trinity and that my previous concerns still have credence

Ok, fair, and I understand that.

It's obviously not going to be a perfect comparison, because nothing in nature has the same "design" as God does, because God is an unfathomable being.

To be perfectly honest, I think it is even a bit too naive to even address God as a being.

But I am trying to make a "somewhat reasonable comparison" to help people understand.

#21

zedvictor4

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Posts: 11,278

zedvictor4

01.29.2024 07:26AM

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@YouFound_Lxam

Consider this.

The trouble with the Trinity.

Is that there could be four or more things.

The Father

The Son

The Daughter

The Holy Spirit.

For example.

But if Christians accepted six propositions.

They would be Sexytarians.

This is just as logical as any other guff.

#22

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02.01.2024 03:58PM

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@YouFound_Lxam

The trinity is a false biblical doctrine. Depending on how it is defined may make a difference.

#23

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Posts: 866

02.01.2024 03:59PM

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@Ball-425

What is meant by person as in "three persons"?

#24

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02.01.2024 04:02PM

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@philochristos

What is meant by person as in "three persons"?

#25

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02.01.2024 05:33PM

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@Mall

Person here is used as an individual with a classical identity or follows the law of classical identity

#26

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