How to tell who is grifting?

Author: TheUnderdog

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TheUnderdog
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I would be a free speech absolutist solely for opinions that the speaker actually believes in.  If someone grifts and says something that they don't believe in when they say it, then if there is enough evidence, then I support that person being deplatformed.

I would assume there are some people that grift, but it's hard to tell if someone is a grifter.

I would assume if they are doing a multi hour debate about their beliefs, then it's obvious they say what they believe.  If the stuff they say is nuanced and not too extreme, then they probably aren't grifting.  There are black people that don't like BLM, there are females who hate feminism, there are trans people who agree with Blaire White on trans issues.  If you strongly disagree, then that's fine.  But not all Blacks, females, and LGBT people agree with the left on their RSG characteristic and this is fine.  If they are far right or far left, then it's possible they grift, but it's hard to tell.  If they make some obvious contradictions, then it's safe to say they are a grifter.  The problem is there exists some overlap and I have a hard time figuring out who is who.

An example of an obvious contradiction wouldn't be someone that is, "Pro life and pro death penalty" or, "Pro choice and pro vacciene mandate" or really any 2 beliefs of any kind.  They are inconsistent (and being inconsistent is ok), but they aren't obvious contradictions.  Even being pro choice and then pro life 5 years later isn't an obvious contradiction; it just means you changed your mind and this is fine.

An example of an obvious contradiction is saying, "I did this awesome alpha male thing with my buddies at the college I went too" and separately saying, "I never went to college; college is a scam".  It's obvious you like college if you did alpha male stuff with your buddies at college.

Also if someone said from 2000 to 2008, "We need to do X" and then in 2016 says not only, "I don't believe in X" but, "I never believed in X", then I think that is grifting worthy of being banned.
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@TheUnderdog
Thought policing on a delusional level where you think you're pro freedom XD.

You're free unless I deem you fake then CANCEL Culture!!
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Prolife and pro death penalty?

Deplatformed permaban!
WyIted
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I won't dent some beliefs can be contradictory but that is really based om their premises not there conclusion . I will give you the example of 1 contradictory belief a 2 thatvonlybseem contradicting when you strawman, and make no mistake you strawman the left and the right even though you do it more often with the right. 

Contradiction

1. Gender is a social construct so men and women are equal at literally everything.

Also

2. Men can be women on the inside and can't help being trans.

It's contradictory beliefs and both of those beliefs are usually premises for arguments and not h conclusion. 

Here is 2 that are not contradictory

1. Pro life

P1. Deprivation of life without just cause is unethical
P2. Abortion deprives the potential human of life
C- abortion is unethical

2. Pro death penalty.

P1- life can be taken for a just cause
P2- state sanctioned murder to punish a murderer is just cause
C THE Dearh penalty is ethical

The premises don't contradict and instead seem to complement each other. These beliefs could contradict each other but typically they won't because it will be premises like the above.

"Pro choice and pro vacciene mandate"
So usually this is contradictory because the left makes claims like that they believe bodily autonomy is important. They are lying when thy make the claims typically So I will present the true arguments of some liberals

Pro choice is usually a female empowerment stance in feminist communities. So it is about keeping the control of your income in your own hands and it helps to put women on more equal ground with men, not having kids also allows them to leave men easier so its about empowering women. 

As far as vaccine mandates is concerned it is an issue of public health. So somebody can simultaneously care about public health and feel like a pro choice stance would help women. 

It's also not grifting to have contradictory beliefs . We all have them and we just need ro find them and root them out. Maybe a person just feels like bodily autonomy should be a right and pushes a pro choice message and then they state that the vaccine is not about bodily autonomy but public health. Essentially using weasel words to hide their premise. It means they feel like these things are both true but also realize on some level thy are wrong and probablybalso realize they are biase 
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The only free speech restrictions should be on institutions and their representatives.

It should be illegal for governments and businesses to lie to the public.

It should also be illegal for them to censor things, as free speech becomes meaningless if you are in a capitalist system and everything is a business where the owners are allowed to dictate speech.

On social media for example people say the owners have a right to have a policy of censorship, but this leads to the total destruction of free speech on the internet because EVERYTHING is a business and the free speech supporting social media are always a minority and much smaller.
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@RationalMadman
Do you believe GRIFTING should be legal?
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@TheUnderdog
You don't know what grifting is.
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@WyIted
It's also not grifting to have contradictory beliefs . 
You are correct, but should you be allowed to advocate a political opinion you don't actually believe when you say it (however specific you want to be) but are merely trying to act crazy to get people to watch your show for money?

Like should it be legal to advocate for Nazism if you aren't actually a Nazi, but are merely trying to say outrageous things so idiots agree with what you say and so you can make money off of it?  I don't think so.  The only people that should be allowed to advocate Nazism are actual Nazis.
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@RationalMadman
What is grifting then?  I thought it was lying about your beliefs and saying crazy stuff so you would make money from being extreme and radical.
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@TheUnderdog
it's scamming for money, yeah. You're basically saying having any contradiction you don't like or covering up one's ego and image is bannable.

The thing is that's fine but don't for a second say you're pro freedom at your own and other's expense then.
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@RationalMadman
You're basically saying having any contradiction
I said any obvious contradiction.

Being pro life and pro death penalty is a contradiction, but it isn't obvious.  One who has these positions at the same time argues that those we know are innocent shouldn't be killed while those we assume are guilty of a horrible crime with due process would be killed.

A contradiction would be saying anti semites are bad while hanging out with obvious anti semites that you know are anti semites.  If you don't like anti semites, then don't hang out with them.  Disliking anti semites is different than disliking anti semitism.

Ben Shapiro talks about how bad anti semetism is while he does tours with Elon Musk who said someone saying pro Nazi talking points was "saying the actual truth".  I do believe Ben Shapiro is a grifter based on him hating anti semites while liking Elon Musk.  Musk said that a tweet that said that Jews push their hatred for whites was the actual truth.

The vast majority of Jews don't hate Gentile whites; the majority of Jews in the US even married gentile whites.
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@TheUnderdog
Yeah, your regime is if you have an obvious contradiction according to overlord Underdog, all freedom to communicate is gone. I got it.
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@TheUnderdog
You are correct, but should you be allowed to advocate a political opinion you don't actually believe when you say it (however specific you want to be) but are merely trying to act crazy to get people to watch your show for money?

As frustrating as it is all th people grifting woke nonsense for example orea making gay pride cookies when in all likelihood they don't give an actual shit. They should have the right to do this.

As the nation gets more qndmore divided it will also likely become necessary to lie about your beliefs. While the right have the urge to squash dissent. The left tends to want to squash it in a much more insidious way. The left would have you forced to do a humiliation ritual where you have to actually promote their beliefs when you disagree with them. 

Its one of those forgotten artifacts of successful leftist revolutions that often are ignored in coverage of them. And we can see seeds of it here already. During BLM for example the left was encouraging people to confront relatives who were quiet on the issue.  You will see the right at their worst repress opinion, but there is something odd about the lefts need to be validated.  I suppose it is why Ayn Rand advocated to always be honest with them. 

She showed an example in atlas shrugged where a tycoon was forced to sell off or nationalize 75% of his business and he pointed out he did it at the barrel of a gun and it triggered the leftist judge who wanted him to say what she was doing was right.

It's not just a legal protection against that sort of contradiction between internal and external beliefs.  There are strategic reasons to do it that are important, but even when the strategic reasons are not important it is of value to have it as a freedom. 

Clinton for example stated she had a public opinion that differed from her private opinion. Shockingly only a small amount of the left was outraged by this.  I thought when the news came out people would be in arms.  I also personally thought it was okay for her to lie about opinions on topics she had no hope of ever making politically viable. 

For example.  I believe ín privatization of schools.  If I campaigned for presidency I might mention some levers I would pull to improve the school system but I wouldn't advocate for privatizing schools nor if I was elected president would I make even a single step towards doing it.  

Why is this?

For a few reasons

1. Privatizing schools wouldn't turn out good in th longterm without making a lot of other changes to society that needs to come along with it. Javier milei has so much room to do what he wants in Argentina he could make that work but I couldn't make it work in th United States. 

2. Making changes such as privatizing schools if it did work in the long term the public is really stupid so the short term negative impacts would result in a lot of losses for my side of the ticket. We should always look at 100 year impacts butmost people are really tepid and only look at near term impacts.

3. I can't realistically privatize schools with a single term in office so it I pointless to donate for

I don't believe those are unethical reasons to present a different public  view especially considering how stupid the public and the media is. 

The media doesn't understand nuance due to them mostly being low IQ. So if they asked me on the campaign trail if I wanted to privatize schools I would say yes but add in the caveats I mentioned above. The media is also a little evil so it would just immediately cut right after me saying yes and then your opponent is evil so negative campaign ads would say stuff like . "If wylted was elected he has promised to eliminate public schools"

So it's just better to lie and say you don't believe in it since it won't affect your policy making anyway. 

Also what if I have some stupid obscure belief and billions of dollars. Why shouldn't I have the right to publicly back people who would disagree with my message but be good at pleading it. For example I start an online newspaper and pay a reporter 6 figures to promote my views. Why should she she have to turn down the opportunity to make a good living?
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Privatizing schools wouldn't turn out good in th longterm without making a lot of other changes to society that needs to come along with it. Javier milei has so much room to do what he wants in Argentina he could make that work but I couldn't make it work in th United States. 
Correct. We have a critical mass of people that believe truth stems from authority, and so they will allow authority to dictate the parameters of society. It doesn't matter if authority is corrupt or out of touch when you believe it is the source of everything good.

Millei is allowed to make sweeping changes because Argentina society has rejected authority as the sole arbiter of what is good, right, and proper. America is nowhere near that point yet.

This is why the niche crowd on DART who regularly tout appeals to authority seem to piss me off so much. It's like they are advertising not only their ignorance and laziness, but also a severe lack of basic morals a normal person would hold dear. These are the exact same type of people that trusted authority in 1933.
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@WyIted
As frustrating as it is all th people grifting woke nonsense for example orea making gay pride cookies when in all likelihood they don't give an actual shit. They should have the right to do this.
That's a good point.  I've changed my mind on this issue because of this.
TheUnderdog
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I just don't like it when people say things they don't actually believe.  How can I tell if they are being sincere?  Politicians shouldn't be forced to grift to try and get popular appeal and there shouldn't be primaries; just a Rank Choice Voting election where the requirement to debate is you must have at least .5% of the population wanting you as a 1st choice.