My Unpopular Opinion on the Annexation of Hawaii

Author: 7000series
Hawaii

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#1
7000series
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Hawaii is a US state, and a legitimate one at that. To justify this claim, I will be using master morality, originally proposed by Nietzsche.

     For the past ten centuries, humanity has been in a continual state of glow-up, with scientific, mathematical, and moral progress being made at increasing rates. However, due to different social structures, some societies have made greater advancements in these fields, giving those societies greater influence over their peers. Historically, this influence was exercised through trade and conquest.

     For example, the British Empire used superior shipbuilding and firearm technology to build the first truly global trade network, and to spread civilization to native peoples. While conquest and colonialism are seen as distasteful practices to our morally advanced society of today, people must realize that for global advancement to happen, advanced societies must be allowed to influence less advanced societies.

     On the dawn of colonialism in the fifteen hundreds, many native Americans embraced Christianity as an alternative to the oligarchic religious structures of their own culture. European imperialists were by no means morally righteous, but for every disease they brought to the Americas, they brought twice as many advancements, and each of those advancements had a lasting effect. If lesser empires (such as that of the Aztecs) were left to their own devices, we would still have human sacrifice in the twenty-first century.

     Connecting this to the annexation of Hawaii, while the overthrow of the queen was bad, Hawaii is now much better off as part of the Union. As of twenty-twenty-four, Hawaii has a gross domestic product of one-hundred and fifteen billion dollars. Additionally, due to the tourism industry, Hawaii is the happiest state of the Union. This would not be the case if Hawaii was still a monarchy.


#2
FLRW
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@7000series
Hawaii officially became America’s 50th state on August 21, 1959, after a century of political and economic turmoil.  I haven't been to Hawaii but I have flown over it a number of times on my way to the Philippines.
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#3
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@FLRW
Yes, I am sorry that my original post lacked nuance. The distinction between the overthrow of the Hawaiian queen, and the addition of Hawaii into the union is important, because the two events were separated by more than half a century. Furthermore, the two events were carried out by different actors, with different motivations.

Still, while not carried out by the government directly, the 1893 coup had US interests in mind. If it didn't, Grover Cleveland would have done more than simply giving a condescending statement to Hawaii's new rulers.
#4
Sidewalker
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@7000series
You are arguing what we should do sixty-five years ago?

What makes you think this is an unpopular opinion? 

Are there people who don't want Hawaii to be a state?


#5
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@7000series
Possession is 9/10th of the law as they say.
I think war and force to be immoral, generally speaking. 'Even if current living conditions end up better, doesn't mean people wish to accept such.
I imagine I could turn my life choices over to various people, and I might end up with more money, more health. . . But bah to that I say, I want to live my life.

Course 'now Hawaii is populated by many non original inhabitants, and the original inhabitants have grown up used to the situation.

If I (Of this instant) was in a similar situation as Hawaii was back then, I wouldn't want to forcefully annex another country.
Take Greenland or Canada for instance.

. . . Though I admit pragmatism has a sense of logic and value to it.

The annexation of Hawaii is unpopular with me, though now I consider it too late.
Same as I don't really care for how America took the West and Texas, but too late now.

I'm neutral about Hawaii being a state, with some leaning towards tradition, it's been a state a while, just leave it a state,
Though I suppose it 'is very small.

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#6
7000series
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@Lemming
On your mini-bio, I read that you were a part of the navy for 5 years. Did you ever get to visit Hawaii in the navy?

I think war and force to be immoral, generally speaking.
I agree, and I think that advanced, expansionist countries should leverage economic, diplomatic, and cultural force rather than military force except in extreme circumstances.

'Even if current living conditions end up better, doesn't mean people wish to accept such.
I think that this is due to internalized argumentum ad antiquitatem ( appeal to tradition ), however some people may argue that tradition holds moral value in and of itself.
#7
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@7000series
I never did visit Hawaii, no.
After training, I ended up on land on the east coast for the rest of the time I was in.
Really got me to love that line in Stairway to Heaven "There's a feeling I get when I look to the west",
Felt good to get back to Oregon.

I'd agree on tradition,
I also think people also like being willful and free at times. Make their own choices, autonomy, self government and all that.
Backseat drivers can be a pain, whether driving, gaming, or running one's country.

Besides, one doesn't always 'know the situation will get better, and a person who finds it acceptable to force their ways, comes off a bit untrustworthy.
. . .

I don't know much about Hawaii's Monarchy and divisions of power.
Some countries seem fairly happy with monarchs, even in the modern era.
The British still have a monarchy after all.

And some groups might choose monarchy as a way of attempting to unite their people against outgroup encroachment, like the Māori King movement - Wikipedia.
. . .

I wonder if there 'would still be human sacrifice in the Aztec area, had it been left alone,
Human sacrifice has been in the history of. . . About 'everywhere I 'think, maybe, mostly, during certain time periods.

Course I suppose societies don't 'have to all evolve the same ways,
May be be a lot of societies 'real strange to us, if they all evolved in isolation into the space age.
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TheGreatSunGod
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@7000series
If lesser empires (such as that of the Aztecs) were left to their own devices, we would still have human sacrifice in the twenty-first century
You still have human sacrifice through endless wars, horrible lifestyle and all the other ways people kill and hurt each other, as well as much more suicides. But now you also have mass imprisonment and rape.

As for human sacrifices in ancient societies, many of those were voluntary. Some people simply agreed to die to please Gods and so that resources could be saved.

I am not saying human sacrifice is ever okay, but its simply silly to pretend that people dont kill each other today.
#9
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Respect the animals bugs fish and spirits

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7000series
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@TheGreatSunGod
You still have human sacrifice through endless wars, horrible lifestyle and all the other ways people kill and hurt each other, as well as much more suicides. But now you also have mass imprisonment and rape.
You make a good point. War is human sacrifice, not to a deity, but rather to a nation, or possibly to the ideals of that nation.

As for human sacrifices in ancient societies, many of those were voluntary. Some people simply agreed to die to please Gods and so that resources could be saved.
Just because human sacrifice is voluntary, does not make it okay. Although I can't say much about other ancient societies, the people who consented to sacrifice by the Aztecs ( a minority to say the least ) were brainwashed from birth into thinking that the world would end without the appeasement of their gods.
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@Lemming
I'm neutral about Hawaii being a state, with some leaning towards tradition, it's been a state a while, just leave it a state,
Though I suppose it 'is very small.
Yes, what is now the United States, along with other parts of North America, was a British colony, with the 13 original colonies eventually declaring independence and forming the United States in 1776. 

Here's a more detailed explanation:
  • Early Colonization:
    In the 16th and 17th centuries, England, and later Great Britain, established colonies in North America, starting with Jamestown in 1607. 

  • Growth of the Thirteen Colonies:
    Over time, these colonies grew, and by the 1700s, there were 13 British colonies along the Atlantic coast, stretching from what is now Maine to Georgia. 

  • The Thirteen Colonies:
    These colonies were: Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, New Jersey, Virginia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and South Carolina. 

  • Growing Tensions:
    As the colonies matured, tensions grew between the colonists and the British crown over issues like taxation, representation, and political control. 

  • The American Revolution:
    The colonists, seeking greater autonomy and self-governance, ultimately revolted against British rule, leading to the American Revolutionary War (1775-1783). 

  • Declaration of Independence:
    In 1776, the 13 colonies declared their independence from Great Britain, forming the United States of America. 

  • The War and Independence:
    The American Revolutionary War ended with the British recognizing the independence of the United States in 1783. 

  • British North America:
    After the American Revolution, Britain continued to control other territories in North America, which would eventually become Canada. 

#12
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@7000series
Annexe is currently the buzz word.

An alternative way of saying, bomb the fuck out of unless.

The downside is reciprocal bombing the fuck out of.

Clever stupid as ever.

Will we ever learn.

I doubt it.


Conversely

If ever there were an argument for design and purpose, it would be the clever stupid gene.



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@zedvictor4
The queen of Hawaii was overthrown, but nobody actually died in the coup itself. Some rich guys just came in with guns and told everybody in power to get out. The same thing happened when the US grabbed Hawaii sixty years later. I am pretty sure that no bombings ever occurred in those two events.
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@7000series
I was referring to annexation and the current buzz.

For sure, bloodless coups are preferable.
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@7000series
The queen of Hawaii was overthrown, but nobody actually died in the coup itself. Some rich guys just came in with guns and told everybody in power to get out. The same thing happened when the US grabbed Hawaii sixty years later. I am pretty sure that no bombings ever occurred in those two events.
No American lives were lost in the coup.
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@7000series
We almost helped Europe annex Ukraine after we helped overthrow their king in 2014, but then those pesky Russians said nyet to annexation.

No American lives were lost in the coup.

That is the American way.
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@Shila
No American lives were lost in the coup.
Are you implying that other lives were lost in the coup? If so, link to some sources, or simply provide reasoning for your claim.
#18
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@7000series
No American lives were lost in the coup.
Are you implying that other lives were lost in the coup? If so, link to some sources, or simply provide reasoning for your claim.
Why was annexing Hawaii bad?
After annexation, Hawaiian cultural practices declined in observance due to Western rule and influence over their land. Native Hawaiians lost their homes, health, resources, and people as capitalism, expensive healthcare, new laws, and foreign disease overwhelmed their land and culture.

#19
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@Lemming
Possession is 9/10th of the law as they say.

Correct and Trump respects that fact with Russia/Putin taking Ukraine's territory.

Trump wants Greenland sooner rather than later.  Perhaps the easiest way for that to occur is to have Greenlanders change their countries name to Hawaii.

I think Putin would approve of re-naming as Hawaii as long as Trump removes more sanctions from Russia.

The new world order moving towards disorder, chaos etc and what better way than simple re-naming of Gulf of Mexico to Gulf of USA?

The MAGA trifecta gives all the powers of a dictator to narcissistic Trump-et, or least they certainly want to act that way. Project 2025 are on the inside as is Musk.

If Putin can get Trump to rename USA to Russia,  then, Europe will soon have their name changed to Russia also.

That only leaves China, India etc to be renamed to attain a new world order.
#20
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@ebuc
I think Putin would approve of re-naming as Hawaii as long as Trump removes more sanctions from Russia.
Putin is trying to trick Trump into renaming America to Russia.
#21
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@Shila

Well, he does want to build the Moscow Trump Tower.
#22
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@FLRW
I am Ok with annexing Russia.
#23
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@FLRW
Well, he does want to build the Moscow Trump Tower.
Putin didn’t want to build Moscow Trump Tower. But annexing America comes with several Trump Towers.
#24
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@Shila
We can have even more towers annexing Russia.
#25
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We can have even more towers annexing Russia.
There are no Trump Towers in Russia.

286 days later

#26
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@7000series
Hawaii is a US state, and a legitimate one at that. To justify this claim, I will be using master morality, originally proposed by Nietzsche.

That comment about it being legitimate. Hawaii was legitimate before we occupied it had substantial resources and a fair governance even if monarchal in foundation.





     Connecting this to the annexation of Hawaii, while the overthrow of the queen was bad, Hawaii is now much better off as part of the Union. As of twenty-twenty-four, Hawaii has a gross domestic product of one-hundred and fifteen billion dollars. Additionally, due to the tourism industry, Hawaii is the happiest state of the Union. This would not be the case if Hawaii was still a monarchy.

(quoting from the description of this topic)
To begin why you are wrong in every way I must deconstruct your faulty narrative of history. To call the excursion on Hawaii a mere annexation is to deter yourself from reality it was by definition a bloodless coup. You justify your claims with biased statistics that Hawaii is the happiest state. The issue with that is Hawaiian natives whose land and culture we scourged during the coup are not happy, The Americans who are the majority are. 90% of Hawaiians are not natives who were afflicted by the unconstitutional invasion of their peaceful country.

By technicality yes Hawaii is a better aspect of our Union but only for the 90% of Americans who inhabit it. I recommend you consider native statistics. You again ignored native considerations when you discuss tourism and how it is what makes Hawaii soo happy when native Hawaiians have been begging for people to stop visiting there for years as many feel exploited by the tourists. They acknowledge the monetary gain but feel humiliated. Your use of Master morality is depressing because you use it as a cloak to disregard the wants of others.

No Hawaii would not have a gross domestic product of one hundred and fifteen billion dollars if they still had a monarch, but they would still have full authority over there home which their ancestors had habited for thousands of years how can you consider that morally just? The Hawaiians were pleased with how they lived with their traditions and denying their autonomy, considering we demolished all of that there is no justification.

All I want you to know is
your only argument is how this benefits America your point is apathetic, and I plead that you acquire some humanity before justifying a tragic event that stunted the culture of thousands.

Also, I would love to see you try to justify the coup the Philippines it had similar motives only difference is having a body count of 200,000 Pilipino citizens.





citations

under demographics is where I received my 90 to 10 ratio.
#27
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@Maxim
The Earth is tiny...Hawaii even tinier.

So invade, conquer, integrate, migrate and hybridize is a natural ongoing process.

Either towards a greater universal  purpose or for no purpose at all.


Maybe one day the human race will have totally homogenized and will work together as one cohesive unit towards the colonisation of the universe and the spread of essentiality.

Or maybe real AI will beat us to it, or perhaps AI was always destined to beat us to it.


Nonetheless, I guess that one day the universe will run out of steam...And then.
#28
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@zedvictor4
The United States' annexation of Hawaii is widely considered to have been illegal under the principles of international law at the time and by contemporary standards
. In 1993, the U.S. Congress passed the Apology Resolution (Public Law 103-150), which formally acknowledged that the overthrow of the Hawaiian Kingdom monarchy was an illegal act and apologized to the Native Hawaiian people. 

Key Events and Illegality
  • Overthrow of the Monarchy (1893): A group of American and European businessmen and landowners, known as the Committee of Safety, staged a coup d'état against Queen Liliʻuokalani, the last reigning monarch of the Hawaiian Kingdom. U.S. Marines from the USS Boston landed in Honolulu at the request of the U.S. Minister to Hawaii, John L. Stevens, which intimidated the Queen's forces and was instrumental to the coup's success. President Grover Cleveland later commissioned the Blount Report, which concluded the U.S. had acted improperly and against the will of the Native Hawaiian people.
  • Refusal to Restore the Queen: Although President Cleveland initially sought to restore Queen Liliʻuokalani to power, the provisional government, led by Sanford B. Dole, refused to step down and declared the independent Republic of Hawaii in 1894.
  • Annexation (1898): Annexation by the U.S. was achieved in 1898 through a congressional joint resolution (the Newlands Resolution), rather than a formal treaty. This method was used because a treaty of annexation would have required a two-thirds majority in the Senate, which was difficult to achieve due to opposition from some senators and a mass petition campaign by Native Hawaiians against it.
  • Apology Resolution (1993): A century after the overthrow, the U.S. government passed a formal apology, acknowledging its role in the "illegal overthrow" and that the Native Hawaiian people never relinquished their claims to sovereignty. 

Ongoing Implications
The Apology Resolution gave significant momentum to the Hawaiian sovereignty movement, which argues that the U.S. presence in the islands constitutes a prolonged and illegal occupation under international law. Sovereignty advocates point out that the 1959 statehood vote, in which 93% of voters approved statehood, did not offer an option for full independence and by that time most voters were not Native Hawaiians. 
The debate continues today over the legal and political status of Hawaii, with many Native Hawaiians seeking some form of self-determination or federal recognition similar to that provided to Native American tribes.

#29
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@Shila
Nice.

#30
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@zedvictor4
Remember the best American president Obama came from Hawaii.