What makes good branding in politics? More or less policy detail?

Author: n8nrgim

Posts

Total: 30
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,230
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
They've lost the policy in politics as I like to say

But how do you win elections? A lot of it is branding and name recognition. Trump had both, that's why he won twice

Are more or less policy details better for branding? 

None of us like it but branding with platitudes is half the battle. The average person is pretty stupid and half of people are even stupider. That's just right off rip. There's a time and place for substance but I'm not convinced being heavy on that is what wins elections. Devilish details can alienate more people than it helps attract. Gotta be ambiguous enough to let people project their own ideals onto you
zedvictor4
zedvictor4's avatar
Debates: 22
Posts: 13,288
3
3
6
zedvictor4's avatar
zedvictor4
3
3
6
-->
@n8nrgim
MAGA appeals to the retrograde ideals of an ageing population and paranoid isolationists.

So in this respect Trump branded well.
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 7,908
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
MAGA won the Gen z vote
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@n8nrgim
Did Trump win on policy?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@n8nrgim
Policy vision is what winners run on. Policy details are what the losers use as ammunition.

What was the policy vision for Democrats?

Well first it was "hope and change"

Then it was "expanded rights for lgbtq and undocumented"

People rejected all those visions once they found out the true cost of spending billions of dollars on government red tape and the true cost of destroying title 9 for women and the true cost of a declining American wage.

And what's the vision for Democrats today? Same as yesterday.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
Democrats appeal to the old and often childless populations. Malthusians.
WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 7,908
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
Isn't it more ethical to have substance and just lose than branding and platitudes to win?


WyIted
WyIted's avatar
Debates: 37
Posts: 7,908
3
4
9
WyIted's avatar
WyIted
3
4
9
You didn't ask what's more ethical though. The only politician I can think of who has these chance to win the presidency who leaned more on substance was Ross Perot but he intentionally lost at the end for some reason. Candidates who do make substantive arguments do poorly. You can watch replays of Ron Paul in the Republican debates and see he is talking at a higher level than everyone else but voters just don't click with him. 

I would say Hillary basically got as far as she did due to name recognition and she didn't talk down to voters as much as most politicians which may have hurt her. 

I think to be ethical you want simple true statements that can be expanded to complex thoughts to make everyone happy. 

You probably don't think much of trump but you can clearly see the simple message there but it also can appeal to smarter people because there is a rabbit hole a deeper well that is being drawn from. 

For the plebs you hear build the wall and let Mexico pay for it. To those actually digging into the policy it'sincreased border securrity and trade policies that recoup the expenses of the project .

27 days later

n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,230
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
You're touching on a core tension in political strategy: the balance between detailed policy and broad branding. Here's a breakdown of the points you raised and some considerations:
  • Branding and Name Recognition:
    • You're right that these are crucial. They create an immediate connection with voters.
    • A strong brand can simplify complex issues and create a sense of identity.
    • Name recognition provides a baseline level of familiarity, which can be a significant advantage.
  • Policy Details vs. Platitudes:
    • Platitudes:
      • They can resonate with a wider audience by appealing to shared values and emotions.
      • They allow voters to project their own interpretations.
      • However, they can also leave voters feeling uninformed or misled.
    • Policy Details:
      • They can demonstrate competence and provide a clear vision.
      • They can attract voters who are deeply engaged with specific issues.
      • However, they can also alienate voters who don't understand or disagree with the details.
      • Too many details can lead to a candidate being labeled as an "elitist" or "out of touch".
  • The "Average Voter":
    • It's true that voter attention spans can be limited, and complex policy discussions can be difficult to follow.
    • Effective political communication often involves simplifying complex issues into easily digestible messages.
  • Ambiguity:
    • As you stated, a degree of ambiguity can allow voters to project their own beliefs onto a candidate. This can broaden appeal.
    • However, excessive ambiguity can lead to a lack of trust and accusations of dishonesty.
  • Winning Elections:
    • The optimal strategy likely lies in a balance between branding and policy.
    • A strong brand can create initial appeal, while carefully selected policy positions can solidify support among key demographics.
    • It is also important to remember that different demographics respond to different messaging. Some groups want heavy policy details, while others do not.
    • Modern campaigns also have to contend with social media, and how to create viral content that is on brand, and easy to understand.
In essence, successful politicians often craft a compelling narrative that resonates with a broad audience, while also offering enough substance to satisfy key constituencies.1

14 days later

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@zedvictor4
@n8nrgim
MAGA appeals to the retrograde ideals of an ageing population and paranoid isolationists.
This is absolutely false. 2024 election demographics prove without a doubt that the opposite is true.

It's a well known fact Democrats are losing the youth vote for obvious reasons. The Democrats worship the old at the expense of the young, racking up national debt that they happily pass onto to the younger generation as an unreasonable burden. They destroy opportunities for entry level work by flooding the country with mostly military aged men from all over the globe. They destroy the education of the youth by funneling most of the education money to old administrators and political activists instead of young teachers. They soar property costs and inflation to increase the wealth of the older landowning class at the expense of the young rent-seekers.

The Democrat party has no vision for the youth of America. None. Just more of the same. In fact, The Democrat party is now conservative wanting to preserve all the failing government and economic institutions of old while the GOP is now progressive, willing to knock it down and build anew.

Democrats are losing the youth vote, and it's no mystery why. They worship the old while saddling the young with crushing national debt. They flood the country with military-aged men from across the world, slashing opportunities for entry-level work. They gut education by funneling money into bloated administrations and political activism instead of into young, passionate teachers. They let property costs and inflation skyrocket, enriching the older landowning class while leaving young Americans to drown in rent.

The Democratic Party has no vision for the future, only the preservation of broken institutions and failed systems. Ironically, they’ve become the conservative party, clinging to the past. Meanwhile, the GOP is the new progressive force: ready to tear it down and rebuild a system that actually works for the next generation.
n8nrgim
n8nrgim's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,230
3
2
5
n8nrgim's avatar
n8nrgim
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
You said the dems are recklessly adding to the debt. I'll grant they have that stereotype, but the last several decades show dems are more about taxing and spending, yet Republicans are the ones borrowing and spending, they're more culpable adding to the debt 
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@n8nrgim
It's a lot more than that. Every issue when it comes to choosing, Democrats favor seniors over the youth, whether its education, abortion, policies that discourage stay at home dads, forever wars that the kids have to fund and fight, medicare and social security, illegal invasions replacing American youth.... Democrats haven't actually raised taxes on the wealthy in forever because the dirty little secret is that older people are far richer than younger people.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@n8nrgim
The party that claims to speak for the future is too busy preserving and conserving the comfort of the past. When is the last time you ever heard of a Democrat reforming anything? Not just adding to government bloat, but actually fixing the problems? The only thing they care about progressing is control and power. That's why their approval is deservedly in the gutter.
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,614
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
The party that claims to speak for the future is too busy preserving and conserving the comfort of the past. When is the last time you ever heard of a Democrat reforming anything? Not just adding to government bloat, but actually fixing the problems? The only thing they care about progressing is control and power. That's why their approval is deservedly in the gutter.
America got what the country deserved Trump!!
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,768
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
The Democrats worship the old at the expense of the young, racking up national debt that they happily pass onto to the younger generation as an unreasonable burden.
Both parties have contributed to the nation's debt, Trump racked up the largest deficit we've ever seen and that was before COVID.

The difference between the two parties is that democrats blow up the deficit for things that benefit future generations. During the last administration is when we saw an infrastructure package finally get done. Expanding internet access, that's democrats. Building an infrastructure for electric vehicles and energy sources which is where the future is heading... That's democrats. Cancer research, apparently that's democrats too.

What do republicans rack up deficits for? Oh yeah, tax cuts for corporations and the rich.

Republicans love pretending to be all for the forgotten man, until it becomes time to actually do something for him.
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,779
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Shila

Well, he did make H L Mencken's prediction come true.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
What do republicans rack up deficits for? Oh yeah, tax cuts for corporations and the rich.
Yawn, such a tired old storytime fable. Democrats haven't taxed the rich in decades.

If the Trump tax cuts were really just for the rich, then why did the Democrats keep them? They had full control in 2021 White House, Senate, and House. If those cuts were the corporate giveaway they always claimed, they could have repealed them. But they didn’t. Why? Because they obviously weren’t just for the rich. The tax cuts lowered rates for almost everyone, expanded the standard deduction, boosted child tax credits, and gave middle-class families more take-home pay. Repealing them would’ve meant raising taxes on the very people Democrats pretend to fight for, and they knew it.

At the same time, they love to talk tough about taxing the wealthy, but when it comes down to it, they haven’t actually done it in decades. Every election cycle they promise to “make the rich pay their fair share,” but capital gains are untouched, billionaire loopholes remain, and the donor class gets a wink and a nod. The truth is, they’ve quietly accepted the tax structure they once called immoral, because it turns out it’s popular with the middle class, and their donors are doing just fine under it too, as evidenced by the record fundraising Democrats got from the billionaire class.

So let’s be clear: Democrats didn’t repeal Trump’s tax cuts because they helped most Americans, and they haven’t raised taxes on the rich because they never actually intended to. The “party of the people” talks a good game, then quietly keeps everything in place. Americans are done with the inactivity.


Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@FLRW
You guys voted in Biden, you don't get to quote anyone ever again.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,768
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
If the Trump tax cuts were really just for the rich, then why did the Democrats keep them? They had full control in 2021 White House, Senate, and House.
In 2021 nothing would have passed through Congress without the approval of Joe Manchin and Kirsten Sinema. You can call that full control of you want to, but it just isn't so.

2021 was also right in the aftermath of COVID when millions of Americans were still out of work and global inflation was in the process of spiking. Not exactly the time to raise people's taxes.

The tax cuts lowered rates for almost everyone, expanded the standard deduction, boosted child tax credits, and gave middle-class families more take-home pay. Repealing them would’ve meant raising taxes on the very people Democrats pretend to fight for, and they knew it.
83% of the benefits went to the top 1%. So you can sit here and pretend this was a bill for the middle class all you want, the reality is that's just laughable.

It's much easier to give something away than it is to take it, that's why republicans campaigned for years on repealing the affordable care act but just couldn't do it either once they actually had power.

So let's not lose site of where this back and forth began. You are pretending the republicans are the party of the middle class. Rather than judging either political party on what they failed to take away, how about we judge them on what they actually did and who they did it for. The democrats biggest achievement over the past two decades is to ensure healthcare was available to millions more Americans, the republicans biggest accomplishment was to pass a tax cut bill where 83% of the benefits went to the top 1%. This isn't a difficult choice.

as evidenced by the record fundraising Democrats got from the billionaire class
"The ATF analysis found most of the support was thrown behind GOP causes and candidates, with 70% of the funds coming from the top 100 contributing billionaire families going to Republicans."
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
In 2021 nothing would have passed through Congress without the approval of Joe Manchin and Kirsten Sinema. You can call that full control of you want to, but it just isn't so.

2021 was also right in the aftermath of COVID when millions of Americans were still out of work and global inflation was in the process of spiking. Not exactly the time to raise people's taxes.

I don't care about 2021. Democrats had full control many times over the past couple of decades and basically fucked everyone over by lying and not keeping promises.

Decades of lies are why they are at rock bottom and why AOC, as shitty as she is, is number one in a sea of shitballs cause she might actually break the decades of Democrat lies.

83% of the benefits went to the top 1%. So you can sit here and pretend this was a bill for the middle class all you want, the reality is that's just laughable.
Just as laughable as the Democrats choosing to keep it while passing all sorts of bullshit laws to crash the economy. Shit priorities. Shit power motives.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,768
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
Democrats had full control many times over the past couple of decades and basically fucked everyone over by lying and not keeping promises.
The last time democrats succeeded in raising taxes on the wealthy was in 2013 when they raised the top rate from 35% to 39.6%. In 2021 and 2024 they tried to raise taxes on the wealthy again but faced unanimous GOP opposition along with Manchin and Sinema.

Our government doesn't work the way you are pretending it does all while knowing fill well that your portrayal is bullshit. The democrats are not the reason taxes haven't been raised on the wealthy since 2013, having control of Congress doesn't mean having unilateral authority to do whatever you want. This is why I've never criticized republicans for failing to enact their policies against unanimous Democratic opposition, it's just disingenuous.

83% of the benefits went to the top 1%. So you can sit here and pretend this was a bill for the middle class all you want, the reality is that's just laughable.
Just as laughable as [Manchin and Sinema] choosing to keep it
Fixed

...while passing all sorts of bullshit laws to crash the economy. 
Now that's just plain stupid.

Let me guess, the economy was a complete and total trainwreck under Biden, but now that Trump is in office everything is great!?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
Let me guess, the economy was a complete and total trainwreck under Biden, but now that Trump is in office everything is great!?
I wouldn't say a 9% spike in the inflation rate was a trainwreck, but it definitely was an avoidable self-inflicted wound that moved the economy in the wrong direction.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
The last time democrats succeeded in raising taxes on the wealthy was in 2013 when they raised the top rate from 35% to 39.6%. 
Right, that's the rate the Democrats set in 1993 (decades ago)

So much for "progress" and taxing the rich. Same rate as decades ago. Same broken promises...

Every election they talk about “making the wealthy pay their fair share,” and yet the top rate keeps bouncing between 35% and 39.6%, like a political prop. Meanwhile, the actual billionaires, the ones swimming in capital gains, crony pass-through income, and trust fund loopholes keep skating by untouched.

So yeah, so much for “progress.” Same rate, same rhetoric, same broken promises, same excuses from the glass of water voter base. If taxing the rich was really their priority, they’ve had plenty of chances to prove it. They just didn’t. Because deep down, their donors are the same class they pretend to fight.
It's a big club, and you aint in it. -George Carlin
Shila
Shila's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,614
3
3
5
Shila's avatar
Shila
3
3
5
-->
@Double_R
Let me guess, the economy was a complete and total trainwreck under Biden, but now that Trump is in office everything is great!?
The stock market lost 11 trillion after the Trump tariffs were announced on April 2.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Shila
Oh those poor poor billionaires, how will you ever survive?
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,768
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
I wouldn't say a 9% spike in the inflation rate was a trainwreck, but it definitely was an avoidable self-inflicted wound that moved the economy in the wrong direction.
Repeating nonsense ad nauseum doesn't make it true. The United States handled post COVID inflation better then all of our peer nations, but facts are irrelevant to you.

Every election they talk about “making the wealthy pay their fair share,” and yet the top rate keeps bouncing between 35% and 39.6%, like a political prop. Meanwhile, the actual billionaires, the ones swimming in capital gains, crony pass-through income, and trust fund loopholes keep skating by untouched.

So yeah, so much for “progress.” Same rate, same rhetoric, same broken promises, same excuses from the glass of water voter base. If taxing the rich was really their priority, they’ve had plenty of chances to prove it.
Again, government doesn't work the way you are pretending it works. You are an incredibly disingenuous individual.

You know democrats have to get past republican opposition even when they have the majority. You know that this even in the best of circumstances requires unanimous agreement which is nearly impossible when you have two senators who are democrats in name only who have never shared in any of the populist views of the party and in fact take pride in their ability to stop the party on issues like this.

And if you understood any of the history you are pretending to know the party was unified with only three exceptions (Sinema, Manchin and one democrat in the house) that supported a wealth tax which would have taken us meaningfully inn the direction you are pretending the party doesn't really want to go in.

You're like a child who thinks government is essentially the Borg, all conjoined and makes decisions as one mind. That's not how human nature or any organization created by it works. Sadly though, your willful ignorance here is shared by millions of Americans who actually find this line of argument convincing.
FLRW
FLRW's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 7,779
3
4
8
FLRW's avatar
FLRW
3
4
8
-->
@Double_R

You're like a child who thinks government is essentially the Borg
He's two.  ( I was thinking of  the Liberty Mutual commercial}
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
Again, government doesn't work the way you are pretending it works

You mean it just doesn't work, period. Decades since Clinton and zero progress.
Double_R
Double_R's avatar
Debates: 3
Posts: 5,768
3
2
5
Double_R's avatar
Double_R
3
2
5
-->
@Greyparrot
Yeah, that's what happens when half the country is stupid enough to believe the 2020 election was literally stolen.

Government was broken before Trump, but as long as he's the center of republican politics it has no chance.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 27,704
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@Double_R
Since 1993 Clinton, apparently. Back when many Democrats were sitting their diapers laughing at Trump movies like Home Alone 2.

Who knew one movie could destroy the government for decades?

So all those election cycles full of “the rich need to pay their fair share”? Turns out their “fair share” has been stuck at the same level since Home Alone 2 hit theaters.
That’s 30 years of empty promises, and some folks still think Trump broke it all in 2016. Wild.

Yeah, that's what happens when half the country is stupid enough to believe the 2016 election was literally fascism and the end of Democracy.