Stoicism vs Epicureanism

Author: Sir.Lancelot

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These two philosophical ideologies are at odds with one another. Which do you believe is more practical, which resonates with you more? 
The purpose of epicureanism is to simplify pleasures and seek out pleasure while avoiding pain. Stoicism has always been more about promoting living a virtuous lifestyle while refraining from hedonism. 

Granted, I could be mistaken about one or two of the details because I did oversimplify them. 
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I did oversimplify them. 
Yea you did. I was struck by the similarity between stoicism and buddhism.

It focuses on developing a person's control over their own mental state, claiming that virtuous action becomes natural once emotion/urges are designed by the ego rather than driving it.

Epicureanism is orthogonal, not the opposite; and it's not hedonism.

When we say ... that pleasure is the end and aim, we do not mean the pleasures of the prodigal or the pleasures of sensuality, as we are understood to do by some through ignorance, prejudice or wilful misrepresentation. By pleasure we mean the absence of pain in the body and of trouble in the soul. It is not by an unbroken succession of drinking bouts and of revelry, not by sexual lust, nor the enjoyment of fish and other delicacies of a luxurious table, which produce a pleasant life; it is sober reasoning, searching out the grounds of every choice and avoidance, and banishing those beliefs through which the greatest tumults take possession of the soul.
— Epicurus, "Letter to Menoeceus
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Yeah you oversimplified Stoicism way too much. Stoicism is toxic and leads to nihilism and depression. I would say in many ways Orthodoxy in almost all religions that have an Orthodox variant pushes us to be Stoic.

Almost all terrorist organisations are very Stoic as are the wilful victims of tyannical regimes (both extremes). It is sort of a nonsense outlook to be masochistic yet tough enough to fight back fully all at once.

Idk much about that other one. Could be good, could be bad.
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@Sir.Lancelot
Never really read much of either, though I liked Meditations by Marcus Aurelius,
It being a 'journal and him a thoughtful person, though I don't think I'd call it a Stoicism textbook,
I think it had a lot about analyzing situations for perspective, reframing, self control, encouragement and argument on why he 'ought take some action or another.

“Here is a rule to remember in future, when anything tempts you to feel bitter: not "This is misfortune," but "To bear this worthily is good fortune.”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

I don't think the two really have to be at odds myself.
After all, virtue is often (but not always) sought because of it's advantages.

Healthy Body,
I don't think it's really 'pleasurable to weigh a thousand pounds, not be able to 'enjoy an active life, they'd have a shorter life of lesser and limited pleasures.

Murder,
"The wicked flee when no one pursues, but the righteous are as bold as a lion."
How can you 'enjoy life, if you feel such 'guilt,
Or as people sometimes do, see yourself in everyone else (See possible killers and dangers in all other people around you),
How can you rest easy, in fear of the law or others revenge.

Social,
Pushing other to get your way and try to get the most pleasure, not really effective,
Important not to be hated as Machiavelli said,
Practicing a virtuous life of good, can be effective towards that.
Reciprocity, good unto others can result in others good unto you.
. . .

Also there 'is a Philosophy section of the Forums,
Rather than the DebateArt.com section of the forums.
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Based on reading, Epicureanism is closer to what is healthiest between the 2.

It specifies good and bad types of pleasure and how to seek them out. Catholicism discourages pain for the sake of pain. Masochism is also cheating in Catholicism. If you sacrifice on Fridays and during all of Lent but you enjoy it masochistically, you are cheating. God will know.

You need to realise we do not dislike pleasure at all. We support good pleasure and resent evil pleasure.
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Why is this in DART section?
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@AdaptableRatman
I am of the belief that stoicism leads to nihilism and perpetuates suffering, but I was unsure if this was just my personal bias or a common feeling. I have only learned of epicureanism recently and I was intrigued. The fact that it is at odds with stoicism is fascinating. 
I occasionally look in rubreddits to see what stoics think of epicureanism.
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@Lemming
I love watching documentaries on Marcus Aurelius. He was born to be Emperor.
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@Sir.Lancelot
Do you very rarely use the thumb button to like posts you agree with or appreciate?

As for what you said, the same issue is found in Buddhism. As ADOL said there is a parallel.

It is all lined up with the self-help movement. It is as much an Andrew Tate ethos as it is a Shaolin Monk ethos. It is as much a NFL player's ethos in hospital getting surgery for a torn ACL as it is the mentality of an abused wife enduring it for the sake of marriage.

Islam is extremely Stoic. Orthodox branches of Christianity sort of say to be it, especially for men.

The truth is numbing oneself to pain involves numbing to pleasure.

Stoicism works in poker. It works for debating here. In life though, it ends up making one too numb to anything feeling fulfilling.
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@AdaptableRatman
Most of the comments I thumbs up are yours, and Savant's. 
Sidewalker has a lot of good takes, but if I had to take a guess, I believe yours would be the highest as far as the ones I click like the most.

Are epicurean methods better for avoiding pain in your opinion than stoicism? 

Your point about orthodox christian churches is slightly accurate, I've noticed. A lot of the teachings are strict about eliminating passions, and seeing passion as a sin. A lot of the monks starve themselves as a means of fasting.
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@Sir.Lancelot
I subscribe to neither.

I subscribe to Catholicism point blank, period.

All else is false.

In fact, on this topic I gradually realised I already agreed so much with Christianity anyway preconversion. My main conflict was on masturbation and on the rules in general but when I agreed with all the core principles after all my years alive it led to me realising the God that I had been mixing with Satan in my delusion had always been the triune Yhwh. Christ, Father, Holy Spirit.
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I don't think Stoicism argues for purposeless enduring of pain and wrongs.
But reflects on a person's freedoms.

“When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.”
― Viktor E. Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning

Though there may and often be situations, in which it is better to change one's environment.
Take peers as an example, there are toxic peers one is better off avoiding, but one cannot always do that, for example family, school, work.

But if they and the situation cannot be removed, what remains of our freedom, is to change how 'we 'react and 'feel to such.

“If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power to revoke at any moment.”― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations


"Sigmund Freud once said that, if you take a widely diverse set of people and starve them, soon all their differences will fall away to be replaced by “the uniform expression of the one unstilled urge” for food."

"That didn’t happen “in the filth of Auschwitz,” writes psychiatrist Viktor E. Frankl in Man’s Search for Meaning: An Introduction to Logotherapy."

"There, the “individual differences” did not “blur” but, on the contrary, people became more different:  people unmasked themselves, both the swine and the saints."

“We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms -- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.”
― Viktor E. Frankl

People do not all 'react the same to situations,
Then obviously of course, there is some difference in the people.
. . .

I think Stoicism can have a recognition of perspective.

“When faced with people's bad behavior, turn around and ask when you have acted like that. When you saw money as a good, or pleasure, or social position. Your anger will subside as soon as you recognize that they acted under compulsion (what else could they do?)”
― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

“Love all people, including those who do wrong. They may be acting unintentionally, out of ignorance. Even if they are acting intentionally, they can’t harm you—that is, they can’t make you a worse person than before. Only you can harm yourself, by fanning the flames of hatred and resentment. When someone wrongs you, identify the mistaken ideas that motivated their behavior. Then, instead of being angry, you’ll pity them.”
― Marcus Aurelius, The Meditations

I think such perspective is 'common in philosophy.

113.“Confucius said, “When you see wise people, think of becoming equal to them. When you see unwise people, reflect inwardly on yourself.”

Consider Mencius and Ox Mountain

or the Bible

Berean Literal Bible
"But as they continued asking Him, having lifted Himself up, also He said to them, "The one sinless among you, let him cast the first stone at her."

I do not think a recognition of causation 'must lead to Nihilism.

Berean Standard Bible
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

Think of the parable of the sower, people of different mettle might take to the word different,
People in different circumstance might hold to the word different. 
. . .


"Alongside Aristotle's ethics, the Stoic tradition forms one of the major founding approaches to virtue ethics.[66]
The Stoics believed that the practice of virtue is enough to achieve eudaimonia: a well-lived life.

The Stoics identified the path to achieving it with a life spent practicing the four cardinal virtues in everyday life — prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice — as well as living in accordance with nature.

The Stoics are especially known for teaching that "virtue is the only good" for human beings, and that external things, such as health, wealth, and pleasure, are not good or bad in themselves (adiaphora) but have value as "material for virtue to act upon".

Fortitude, a willingness to confront pain, agony, danger, uncertainty, intimidation is bad.
It seems to me 'good to be strong in life.
There are times when pain must be withstood, if we are to achieve certain ends.
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Fortitude, a willingness to confront pain, agony, danger, uncertainty, intimidation is NOT bad.
I meant to say.

Well, doesn't 'seem bad at a glance to me.
Though some situations, might be better to avoid pain.

Assumably Stoics aren't saying to seek out pain for pains sake,
Or to take pain without purpose or gain, just to look macho.
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@Lemming
Stoicism presents as what you said.

Yet when you look more into it and don't just take cute quotes, you realise it is 'shut up and suffer worm' military hazing turned into an entire life philosophy.
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@AdaptableRatman
Oh I agree it 'can be.
But I don't agree it 'is or 'has to be.

Philosophy and Religions often end up Tools and Means to other Ends, than the Ends advocated by many of said Philosophies or Religions.
But I don't regard Stoicism as 'unique in that.
Just something that humans do with Philosophies, Religions, Isms.

There's good and bad people who claim to be Catholic,
There's good and bad people who claim to be Stoics.
. . .

Stiff upper lip sounds rather Stoic,
But I think I'd call it more British than Stoic,
Well, a certain 'type of British person at a specific point in history.

Some Stoicism maybe.
But one sees many variations of Isms, depending on time and place, for better or worse.
But I don't regard Stoicism as 'unique in that.
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@Lemming
I have never in my life felt as accepted even with my weirdness, as among Catholics.

However, I am sure if I was severely strange looking or had tourettes that made me tic during Mass, I would be experiencing another side of some.

What I know is that Caths are the real deal. They know everyone is a sinner and forgive easier compared to others.
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I'm glad it's working out for you.
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@ADreamOfLiberty
@Sir.Lancelot
@AdaptableRatman
Would you want the society around you to heed the call of Pleasure (Epicureanism) or 'Duty and Virtue (Stoicism)?
Though I 'might be mischaracterizing the two, I'm not well read on them.
. . . But in great suffering and dire straits,
Might be that virtue is easier to achieve than pleasure,
Might be more 'meaningful to a human,
Might be you want virtue people at your back, than pleasure people.

Apparently Greece and India exchanged 'some ideas, though I couldn't say 'how much.
Sometimes ideas can occur to people separately or similar trees form from similar seeds.


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@Lemming
Epicureanism separates good from bad pleasure and pushes agaisnt excess pleasure.

Stoics are miserable but mask it, spreading negative vibes around.

The Epicureans are the good vibes people who are honest and easygoing.

Both are not completely ideal in their ideology, stoics just think they are.

In my experience, the Epicureans grow up into stoics as they mature. This is a doom for them as they lack God and Christianity.
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@Sir.Lancelot
One pleasure is better than another pleasure type. Obviously, person who wants pleasure would seek out best, most sustainable one.
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@Lemming
Would you want the society around you to heed the call of Pleasure (Epicureanism) or 'Duty and Virtue (Stoicism)?
Either would be an improvement over learning philosophy of tik tok content chasers.


Apparently Greece and India exchanged 'some ideas, though I couldn't say 'how much.
Sometimes ideas can occur to people separately or similar trees form from similar seeds.
There is a over a tendency in archeology to assume greater isolation than is reasonable.

More interaction leads to more influence. Being trading neighbors is the most influential (besides conquest). Still, people can walk, and they can walk a long way. A big as the world seems a man can walk from Greece to Thailand and back three times before his body fails him.

Nobody can say that similar ideas didn't come from somewhere else on the world island. There was a synchronous golden age in India and Greece, and that would have made them notice each other despite the distance.

The elephant in the room is Alexander's fieldtrip and the Bactrian colony. I believe stoicism was slightly after this, so at that point it's more than plausible.
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One pleasure is better than another pleasure type. Obviously, person who wants pleasure would seek out best, most sustainable one.
So--------------WELCOME TO THE BIG BANG CLUB !!!!!!!!!
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@Sir.Lancelot
These two philosophical ideologies are at odds with one another. Which do you believe is more practical, which resonates with you more?
I’m not sure it’s really a matter of “either or”, perhaps they are two aspects of life, they look like opposites but in practice, they are polar opposites, they constitute a whole. They represent a dynamic, rather than separate, they are transactional components of a single movement. 

In the realm of the mind the most fundamental things are presented to us in the form of a choice, and it becomes a choice of perspective, of how one looks at it I think. 

The purpose of epicureanism is to simplify pleasures and seek out pleasure while avoiding pain. Stoicism has always been more about promoting living a virtuous lifestyle while refraining from hedonism.

Most people would say Mother Teresa was a Stoic, “selfless” even, but if we distinguish between what we think or her work and what she thought of her work, if you listen to her, she did not think of it as selfless, she always talked about it as a Hedonistic pleasure.

Mother Teresa always spoke of the great joy and pleasure, a deep personal sense of satisfaction she obtained from her work. She just never spoke about doing the things she did for the sake of others, she didn’t see her work as “selfless”.

We most certainly think that within the ethical domain, her actions were above and beyond the call of duty, "Saintly" and heroic so to speak. She just did not think of herself as Saintly and heroic, she did not speak of anything she did as above and beyond the call of duty, she didn't see her life as sacrificial, to her it was a matter of continuous joy and pleasure, and nothing more.

I think we need to recognize that Mother Teresa found life personally satisfying on these terms because she had transcended the realm in which her own materiality was located. She had truly adopted a perspective that defined life as good in terms of the contribution she made in others. It most certainly was not for the experience that comes from being acknowledged, but for the genuine experience of joy she felt in service to others. I believe she transcended her own ego consciousness and extended her awareness and being to include the experience created in others by her work. She actually thought this way, she had overcome consciousness of material being and entered a completely different realm, a spiritualistic realm. Hers was a realm in which she was truly one with her fellow man. I believe there is a genuine personal exaltation, a pure and unadulterated experience of pleasure in this transcendence of the self which she accomplished, and which fits the original philosophical use of the word hedonism.

Granted, I could be mistaken about one or two of the details because I did oversimplify them.
You oversimplified to the point of no details, but hey, every single person in the world does that. It’s as simple as that.


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@Sidewalker
Catholicism embraces neither of these 2 fully, that is why Mother Teresa ends up neither.
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@Sir.Lancelot
I think epicurieansim is too often compared to hedonism, as both seek pleasure. But, I see them as combatants in that pursuit. Whereas hedonism seeks pleasure for self-indulgence and self-purpose, epicureanism seeks pleasure for its generosity toward others, and its insistence of pleasure in moderation, not in excess.

I see a link of epicureanism to stoicism in that both seek personal happiness, a word which is not often considered when one thinks stoicism is rooted in the trials of reality often influencing our more serous attitude toward life's trials. Just as laughter is said to be the best medicine, so both epicureanism and stoicism point to enjoying life as best as can be expected, given those things which challenge happiness. Both point to happiness as being a process and not so much a destination.
I do not see these two philosophies as combatting one another.