Another classic: Intercessory Prayer and Efficacy

Author: ludofl3x

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#181
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@Tradesecret
Christians are not in principle superstitious - in fact we often go to great lengths to ensure people give up their superstitions. 

Well, that's one way to put it.

We don't believe in magic or manipulation. 

No, but the largest Christian church in the world DOES believe that if the right person says some magic words over a cracker, that it turns into 2000 year old flesh that has the ability to save you from being tortured forever.


#182
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@disgusted
I did not lie.

I was merely asking you to clarify what you meant by human sacrifice.

What you have failed to show that the God of Israel ever promoted or sanctioned human sacrifice - the same kind that we see on such a scale in religions that practise such.

the Jewish religion was against human sacrifice - I would suggest that Jesus was a unique situation - because no where is it ever demanded by God in the first place -secondly, its production was in the form of capital punishment by the Romans, not as human sacrifices are generally held, and thirdly because he did not stay dead and fourthly because the sacrifice was in fact the very one who - God whom required it in the first place. 

In other words, my point to you  was lets clarify what human sacrifice is - lets look at what happened with Jesus - and then lets see if the two are comparable.

I submit that what is generally seen as human sacrifice and what Jesus did are not at all identical - even if sometimes the words seem similar. 

#183
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@ludofl3x
And that was my point about the Catholic Church - and I do not condone the Spanish Inquisition - which was against Protestants and the result of the same superstitious catholic church. 
#184
WisdomofAges
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Another FORUM of FOOLS....all these Parasites can do is ARGUE and CREATE CONFLICT...

This is the essence of the Middle East JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God garbage...never ending CONFLICT

The Atheist ?  (no such human exists) uses the JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God myths as tools to create
CONFLICT and AGGRESSION...these Vampires act like they do not BELIEVE in some idiot GOD
but the act with the same HATRED and DETERMINATION to force their beliefs on others ending 
up in WAR and OPPRESSION...the same tools the JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God Vampires use....

POINT = everyone LOSES...choose the WRONG GOD and YOU must be exterminated...choose
NO GOD and you must be exterminated...

Time is NOW to DUMP the JEW-JESUS-ALLAH Gods into the TOILET....these 3 GOD hoaxes
must end up like ZEUS and ODIN....FORGOTTEN....and worthless....

This is what these 3 JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God psychopaths do to all the other religions and GODS
they totally TRASH them...invade and destroy other cultures....they are Parasite TERRORISTS

NO HUMAN ever needs to be validated and approved to EXIST and DIE by some JEW-JESUS-ALLAH 
GOD hoax preaching VAMPIRE...with so many options for spirituality without FEAR and VIOLENCE

NOW is the TIME to RID EARTH of these JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God hoax thieves and murderers...
Let them ROT...never accept their idiotic beliefs....just walk away and ignore the PARASITE...

The YOUTH of EARTH must not be HYPNOTIZED and BRAINWASHED by these 3 Parasite Vampire
GOD hoaxes......let the Middle East vaporize itself....the rest of humanity will not miss these TERRORISTS
#185
keithprosser
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@Tradesecret
It can't be known what really happened 2000 years ago in Palestine, but i think it is very possible jesus was arrested and crucified.  It could well be because he had upset the jewish religious establishment, not only for his blasphemy but his anti-clerical criticism of the priests corruption and veniality.

If so, it is only surprising that Christianity did not disappear along with its charismatic figurehead and actually gained in strength.  The early christians turned a disaster into a positive by portraying Jesus' death as a supreme martyrdom. 
 
If i had a time machine I would make a bee-line to that time and place!  It's tempting to speculate but there's not much point when the truth is unknowable.  The faithful can claim to 'know', but their faith means nothing to sceptics!      
#186
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@Tradesecret


the Jewish religion was against human sacrifice - I would suggest that Jesus was a unique situation
Of human sacrifice.

What you have failed to show that the God of Israel ever promoted or sanctioned human sacrifice

because no where is it ever demanded by God in the first place

God whom required it in the first place. 
Read your book your god commanded it and you admit he required it. Please get your story straight.

#187
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@disgusted
I agree that the text indicates that jesus'death and resurrection was pre-ordained by god.  One can quibble whether it is an instance of 'human sacrifice' - Jesus was not ritually offered up to a god by its worshippers as is the case within the usual meaning of 'human sacrifice'.

i think the crucifixion of jesus threw the early church into a crisis - jesus was supposed to be a messiah; he was supposed to lead the jews out of Roman subjugation into greatness.  Instead he died as a blasphemer.  
The consequence was remarkable - instead of being forgotten as yet another messianic pretender (as he is considered in judaism) he was turned into a martyr for a new, non-jew centric religion invented (or at least actively promoted) by Paul that succeeded outside judea as it failed within.
 
#188
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@keithprosser
Once again Keith I only regurgitate what christianity teaches and explain to them just how ridiculous and contradictory their teachings are. Their god didn't perform any of the atrocities they claim he did because their god is a figment of the imagination of the IPSS and the Hebrews are a heretical break away from their Canaanite ancestors.
#189
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@ludofl3x
God is also our Father. We are his children. We have a relationship. This means talking to each other.

This is not intercessory prayer. This is conversation as described, which is entirely different and probably has some inherent theraputic value, not because god's there, but because we can gain a perspective from meditation on a subject. The difference between your children and you talking, and people and god talking, well, it's more than one, and all signficant. Two people can hear you say the same thing at the exact same moment, for example. Your one child might hear you say something to another child and both could verify what was said.

Fair point. Intercessory prayer is prayer on behalf of another.  But prayer of any type is conversation. I just can't talk to someone and expect them to do what I ask. It requires a relationship.  and sometimes what I ask is wrong. praying on behalf of someone else - does several things. Firstly it demonstrates that you care for them. Secondly, it demonstrates that God is the one who can do something about it. But it also acknowledges that you know that God is the one who can do something about it. We don't know what God will do - but we ask - and this enables us to grow in faith. 

In the bible, God tells us to pray to him.  He also tells us to ask him for things.  There is a sense of comfort too when we do seek his advice - a knowledge that he knows that we have not forgotten to ask him. Prayer of course is the ultimate sense of dependency upon someone else 
I know that he tells you to pray. Why, is the question, if he has a plan, would he encourage you to, I don't know, pray for your sick dad to recover if he knew his plan was to kill him anyway? Doesn't that seem cruel? And you nailed the part about dependency, I agree. 

perhaps it is because we need faith and to grow in it. Perhaps we need to continue to realise that God is the master of the universe and we are dependant upon him.  We ask him because he wants to us to tell him - what we want. I don't think that is cruel, even though I know he knows. Often God answers even when we don't ask him. but given that I love God and tell him anything - I don't have any reservations telling him again and again. 
 (Actually he did create a world without sin and where everyone did what was good, yet man's first decision - was to do evil)
Did he not know that was going to happen? Are you saying man invented something god didn't (evil)? 

Of course God knew what humanity would do.  it did not stop him because his plan included this - and in the end all of us will see why and simply marvel at his reasoning. man did not invent evil. Evil is not an invention. Evil is just disobedience. 
#190
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@disgusted

the Jewish religion was against human sacrifice - I would suggest that Jesus was a unique situation
Of human sacrifice.

What you have failed to show that the God of Israel ever promoted or sanctioned human sacrifice

because no where is it ever demanded by God in the first place

God whom required it in the first place. 
Read your book your god commanded it and you admit he required it. Please get your story straight.
Disgusted, I am close to not responding to you. Why? because you lie so much. Not once have you ever quoted the bible in our conversations.  Not once. I know my bible backwards. You state much but never give anything to back it up. you assert lots - but never give a reason, an argument or a simple verse which would help. just coz you state something is biblical does not make it so. Many people quote the bible - and get it wrong - but you just state the bible says stuff - and never even try and prove it. As I said, I am close not to replying to you. But this is the reason why. You only assert but never prove or argue. 
#191
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@disgusted
For example - 

where does God command it. human sacrifice. 

Please find it for me - I  know the bible backwards - and frontwards - in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic - but I cannot find anywhere where God demands human sacrifice. 

If you cannot produce a verse I will accept your concession. 
#192
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@keithprosser
It can't be known what really happened 2000 years ago in Palestine, but i think it is very possible jesus was arrested and crucified.  It could well be because he had upset the jewish religious establishment, not only for his blasphemy but his anti-clerical criticism of the priests corruption and veniality.
Ok. I agree I was not there either. Historians tend to agree that Jesus did live, was arrested and crucified. I accept the strength of the historians. 

Did he upset the Jewish establishment? If one believes the NT witness then yes.  Obviously. the Romans had the only authority to kill him, the Jews as a subservient state did not.  Why would they kill him? Not for a religious reason. They would not have cared unless it could be tied to a Roman issue. the Jews talk of a king - not being Caesar - is quite probable. So blasphemy from the Jewish quarters is likely. But only if this blasphemy could be tied to a roman issue - such as being insurrection = a king in competition with Caesar. Otherwise no authority or jurisdiction. 

If so, it is only surprising that Christianity did not disappear along with its charismatic figurehead and actually gained in strength.  The early christians turned a disaster into a positive by portraying Jesus' death as a supreme martyrdom. 
 Of course it might also be the truth of what they claim. this is plausible as well. 

If i had a time machine I would make a bee-line to that time and place!  It's tempting to speculate but there's not much point when the truth is unknowable.  The faithful can claim to 'know', but their faith means nothing to sceptics!  
I would love a time machine. It would so make history such a wonderful thing. 
#193
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@Tradesecret
Why do you need bible verses when you know the bible so well, you know very well that everything I say can be found in the bible and even in your head.
Look what you said:
sacrifice was in fact the very one who - God whom required it in the first place. 
But of course it wasn't is was the "human" Jesus the only human pure enough to be sacrificed. God required it, god commanded it, god wouldn't change his unjust punishment if he didn't get it, the sacrifice saved your pathetic afterlife, god commanded it and you are a congenital liar for continually changing your story.
Look

I never said one man attending our church makes its the real church
LIE
But for your priest to come to my church - is an acknowledgement that our church is a true church. 
No answer to this?
Does your god know all that he needs to know?
Or
Does he know all things that can be known.
The two statements are contradictory, you godists get all tied up trying to explain your contradictory beliefs.
Allegedly Jesus came to turn the other cheek and to reject the eye for an eye and tooth for tooth. Which as usual makes this next quote a lie.
He holds to the justice - of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth
what arguments from the bible?

Your god sees them in hell before he creates them
God sees you in hell before he creates you can your much vaunted free will change that and prove your god wrong? I
Allegedly Jesus came to turn the other cheek and to reject the eye for an eye and tooth for tooth
We are discussing your god's evil nature as demonstrated by his creation of billions of souls just so he can torture them for eternity

This is what your bible teaches, the fact that you don't understand this is demonstrated by this lie.
Jesus never came to reject an eye for an eye
And now you want to quantify how much human sacrifice your god ordered
What you have failed to show that the God of Israel ever promoted or sanctioned human sacrifice - the same kind that we see on such a scale in religions that practise such.
If you need me to quote the bible when you acknowledge my claims come directly from the bible then you are just totally dishonest.
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#194
ludofl3x
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@Tradesecret
Intercessory prayer is prayer on behalf of another.  But prayer of any type is conversation. I just can't talk to someone and expect them to do what I ask. It requires a relationship.  and sometimes what I ask is wrong. praying on behalf of someone else - does several things. Firstly it demonstrates that you care for them. Secondly, it demonstrates that God is the one who can do something about it. But it also acknowledges that you know that God is the one who can do something about it. We don't know what God will do - but we ask - and this enables us to grow in faith. 
I have a number of issues here: intercessory prayer is asking god to intercede. Mainly it's the last sentence: how do unanswered prayers enable you to GROW in faith? I'll lay it out a little more clearly. You find out, sadly, that a relative of yours has contracted Alzheimer's. If you believe God has a plan, then he PLANNED for this loved one to contract Alzheimer's, planned for you to be sad about it, so sad that you beg him to change his plan. Maybe. Because you don't know if that plan includes the idea that because your loved one got Alzheimer's, their having it may be the final piece of the puzzle to curing it. THAT could be the plan. OR, he planned for them to get Alzheimer's just because, or for any number of other reasons. Your praying for God to intercede in this plan, his own plan, would mean that you are trying to convince god to change his mind. This goes against him having a plan, number one, but number two, if you pray for him to save your loved one and they die, how does this unanswered prayer, with no indication of WHY it went unanswered, make your faith STRONGER? If a human being told you they were going to do something if you asked them to, you asked them to do it, then they didn't do it, didn't explain why they didn't do it, and furthermore you never heard from them again, would you trust this person more or less? 

perhaps it is because we need faith and to grow in it. Perhaps we need to continue to realise that God is the master of the universe and we are dependant upon him.  We ask him because he wants to us to tell him - what we want. I don't think that is cruel, even though I know he knows. Often God answers even when we don't ask him. but given that I love God and tell him anything - I don't have any reservations telling him again and again. 
This doesn't answer the question about the point of intercessory prayer if god truly is omniscient, and instead, raises more questions than answers. Why does god want us to tell him what we want if he doesn't plan on doing anything about many, many, many of the prayers he hears? How is that not cruel: beg me for mercy and I'll let you labor under the illusion that I might grant it, even though I know already if I do or do not. 

Of course God knew what humanity would do.  it did not stop him because his plan included this - and in the end all of us will see why and simply marvel at his reasoning. man did not invent evil. Evil is not an invention. Evil is just disobedience.
If god's plan included man doing evil, knowing humanity would disobey, then why's he mad about it? It was HIS plan. This is one of the many arguments that opened my eyes to how contradictory all of this stuff is, this one and the talk about how Judas Iscariot burned in hell and was beset upon by demons. Wasn't he only doing what he was supposed to do IN GOD'S PLAN? Why get mad or punish him?
#195
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@disgusted
I think you are making it all up. I am not even persuaded that you have looked at the bible for yourself. 

You take words that I have written - and which I don't deny - but you take them out of context and make them say the opposite of what intended or you do you take into account the way I have qualified it. for example - 

I never said one man attending our church makes its the real church
I have not said this in the way you have twisted it. 

But for your priest to come to my church - is an acknowledgement that our church is a true church. 
I was conversing with mopac. And in my conversation I suggested to Mopac that his priest coming to my church - is an acknowledgement. But now ask yourself this question: an acknowledgment by whom? an acknowledgment from mopac's orthodox priest - that our church is a true church.  It is not me saying that one man coming to our church makes it a true church. I certainly don't think any person coming to our church makes it a true church. But for mopac to harp on about the orthodox being the only true church and that his priests would not worship with any but a true church - for an orthodox priest to attend our church is an acknowledgment by him that he considers our church real or true - otherwise he would never have attended. So my point is - don't twist my words around to mean something I never intended. 

but twisting words is part of your MO - you cant handle the truth because it bites you at every turn. You have once again failed to provide any evidence - just asserted words are in the bible - I am sure you have been trying to find some - but you cant - and I deny it as well. so thanks for your concession AGAIN. 
#196
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@Tradesecret
It is considered a very big no no  for an Orthodox to partake in the eucharist if other churches.

You say you do not believe that the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ.

The priest in question is very out of line if they took part in the eucharist.

Simply attending your church is a different story. In fact, I take part and even teach bible study at a methodist church and a nonprofit organization that does a bible study. I go to an evangelical church that has a calvinist pastor, and I help out at a church that is done for the homeless outdoors.

I can do these things, but taking part in the eucharist? Big no no. We don't even believe it the same way. 




#197
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@ludofl3x
Intercessory prayer is prayer on behalf of another.  But prayer of any type is conversation. I just can't talk to someone and expect them to do what I ask. It requires a relationship.  and sometimes what I ask is wrong. praying on behalf of someone else - does several things. Firstly it demonstrates that you care for them. Secondly, it demonstrates that God is the one who can do something about it. But it also acknowledges that you know that God is the one who can do something about it. We don't know what God will do - but we ask - and this enables us to grow in faith. 
I have a number of issues here: intercessory prayer is asking god to intercede. Mainly it's the last sentence: how do unanswered prayers enable you to GROW in faith?
When you ask mum for something and she says no, is that not answer? God can say yes. he can say no. He can say wait. Patience is a good thing. Learning to wait - delayed gratification is a good thing. Learning that God has a better plan is a good thing. All of these things are tools that help faith grow. 

I'll lay it out a little more clearly. You find out, sadly, that a relative of yours has contracted Alzheimer's. If you believe God has a plan, then he PLANNED for this loved one to contract Alzheimer's, planned for you to be sad about it, so sad that you beg him to change his plan. Maybe. Because you don't know if that plan includes the idea that because your loved one got Alzheimer's, their having it may be the final piece of the puzzle to curing it. THAT could be the plan. OR, he planned for them to get Alzheimer's just because, or for any number of other reasons. Your praying for God to intercede in this plan, his own plan, would mean that you are trying to convince god to change his mind.

The fact that God has a purpose in any situation does not mean that I will ever know what that plan is. Of course I am going to be sad if my mum developed Alzheimer's.  Why should I not ask God to do something about it? It might be God's plan for me to pray to change his mind.  What I do know is that God asks us to pray to him. I mentioned previously the difference between God's hidden will and his revealed will. I still think that is what you continue to get mixed up. You focus on his hidden will and think we are asking God to change that. He tells us to focus on his revealed will and to respond in accordance with that.  

This goes against him having a plan, number one, but number two, if you pray for him to save your loved one and they die, how does this unanswered prayer, with no indication of WHY it went unanswered, make your faith STRONGER? If a human being told you they were going to do something if you asked them to, you asked them to do it, then they didn't do it, didn't explain why they didn't do it, and furthermore you never heard from them again, would you trust this person more or less? 

I don't think it does anything of the sort. It makes our faith stronger - because we know God has a better plan that we do. Dying is not the end of the story for Christians. As I said above- prayer is recognising our total dependence on God. It means submitting our wills to his and doing so in a way that acknowledges that he always does what is right. The alternative I think would be a worse strategy. It would fatalistic - because you just have to put up with what ever happens. And everything is random - there is no meaning and there can never be a why.  Not that a why is always important - sometimes that just gets in the road - look at the example of Job. Your comparison with a human is not helpful because God is not a human who will lie. And I don't have the issue of God cutting himself of from me and being silent. 



#198
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@ludofl3x
perhaps it is because we need faith and to grow in it. Perhaps we need to continue to realise that God is the master of the universe and we are dependant upon him.  We ask him because he wants to us to tell him - what we want. I don't think that is cruel, even though I know he knows. Often God answers even when we don't ask him. but given that I love God and tell him anything - I don't have any reservations telling him again and again. 
This doesn't answer the question about the point of intercessory prayer if god truly is omniscient, and instead, raises more questions than answers. Why does god want us to tell him what we want if he doesn't plan on doing anything about many, many, many of the prayers he hears? How is that not cruel: beg me for mercy and I'll let you labor under the illusion that I might grant it, even though I know already if I do or do not. 

I keep going back to this point. It is a relationship. just coz God can do things - does not mean he is obligated to or wants us to simply rely on all of those attributes all the time. If we did - then we would never talk to him. That would not be a relationship. He tells us to pray. Again you seem to be mixing up his hidden will with his revealed will.  Nothing that happens could happen without the hidden will of God and this includes the lies and the evil and awful things that happen.  God has ordained all things to come to pass and everything he has ordained will come to pass and no one can prevent that from happening. He is the first cause of all things. Yet he does this without sin and with a holy intention. Zeno's paradox with the arrow I think illustrates this well. Yet God also gave people and Angels freedom to make choices - God does not us to be automatons - robots who worship him - he wants people to do so freely and because they want too. Yet, this freedom also meant the possibility of sin - and evil. The Christian message has always been that free will and determinism can only be reconciled in God. Philosophers argue all the time about these two positions outside of the church -because it is impossible to reconcile the two. Hence you position to reject God and prayer on this is somewhat redundant for if you were intellectually consistent you would also have to reject the philosophy of Plato and indeed all other forms of the same. 
Of course God knew what humanity would do.  it did not stop him because his plan included this - and in the end all of us will see why and simply marvel at his reasoning. man did not invent evil. Evil is not an invention. Evil is just disobedience.
If god's plan included man doing evil, knowing humanity would disobey, then why's he mad about it? It was HIS plan. This is one of the many arguments that opened my eyes to how contradictory all of this stuff is, this one and the talk about how Judas Iscariot burned in hell and was beset upon by demons. Wasn't he only doing what he was supposed to do IN GOD'S PLAN? Why get mad or punish him?

God is holy. God is totally justified in being upset with sin.  He is the first cause - but humanity is the second cause - the ones who actually committed the evil and the sin.  The fact that God continues to deal with humanity despite their rejection of him is staggering. Remember God made the world and he made it very good. It was man who sinned. We cant blame God for that - even though it may well have been part of his hidden will which cannot be prevented from happening. We don't blame Tolkien for what the golem does even though Tolkien knew what was going to happen. 

#199
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@Tradesecret
When you ask mum for something

Your comparison with a human is not helpful because God is not a human
Oh dear, the hypocrisy.
I've said that for years but godists still insist on doing it.
#200
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@Tradesecret
Oh dear, you haven't supplied any verses to support your assertions.
God is holy. God is totally justified in being upset with sin. 

The sin that he created as the cornerstone of his plan.

.  The fact that God continues to deal with humanity despite their rejection of him is staggering.
Even though it is all a part of his plan.

Remember God made the world and he made it very good.
No he didn't he made it in the full knowledge that he was creating sin in order to make the earth a hellhole under his command.

It was man who sinned. We cant blame God for that -
It was his plan for man to do so, you can blame your god for that, read your bible and stop lying.

even though it may well have been part of his hidden will which cannot be prevented from happening.
Thanks for your agreement.

We don't blame Tolkien for what the golem does even though Tolkien knew what was going to happen. 

Your comparison with a human is not helpful because God is not a human
But I agree with comparing works of fiction and Tolkien is far superior to your IPSS.

#201
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@Mopac
It is considered a very big no no  for an Orthodox to partake in the eucharist if other churches.

You say you do not believe that the eucharist is the body and blood of Christ.

The priest in question is very out of line if they took part in the eucharist.

Simply attending your church is a different story. In fact, I take part and even teach bible study at a methodist church and a nonprofit organization that does a bible study. I go to an evangelical church that has a calvinist pastor, and I help out at a church that is done for the homeless outdoors.

I can do these things, but taking part in the eucharist? Big no no. We don't even believe it the same way. 
I never said that I did not believe the eucharist was not the body and blood of Christ. I said it was not the literal body and blood of Christ. And it is not. The body of Christ is in Heaven, no longer being crucified.  Christ intercedes on behalf of his people. 

It is the spiritual or covenantal body of Christ - it is really Christ. But it is not literally Christ. 

Why would you bother mixing with other churches - in their worship services and not partake of communion? That is hypocritical.  Either they are of the body of Christ or they are not? Singing is worship. Praying is worship. Listening to the Sermon is worship. The Eucharist is worship. Reading the bible is worship.  
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@Tradesecret
Post #200 Trady, have a go.
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@Tradesecret
I never said that I did not believe the eucharist was not the body and blood of Christ. I said it was not the literal body and blood of Christ.
Buy some cognitive dissonance.
it is really Christ. But it is not literally Christ. 
Buy some cognitive dissonance.
Either they are of the body of Christ or they are not
And you believe it's both. HOORAH
Buy some cognitive dissonance.
#204
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@Tradesecret
No, we very much disagree of the eucharist.

I feel absolutely no conviction for being an ambassador for Christ in these congregations that confess Him. It would be more hypocritical for me to partake in their eucharist when we wouldn't let them partake of ours.