An orthodox take on genesis.

Author: keithprosser ,

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  • keithprosser
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    The stories of Genesis cannot be read apart from their original cultural context, and when we read them as they were meant to be read, we see that the creation story was a gauntlet thrown down before the prevailing culture of its time.

    The creation stories affirmed that the Jewish God, the tribal deity of a small and internationally unimportant people, alone made the whole cosmos. That meant that He was able to protect His People. It meant that, properly speaking, all the pagan nations should abandon their old gods and worship Him.

    These stories affirm that the Jewish God is powerful enough to have created everything by a few simple orders.


  • Tradesecret
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    --> @keithprosser
    Thanks for that. I don't have a particular issue with that at all. It makes sense. 
  • disgusted
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    And yet the genesis story is the bedrock of your beliefs and yet you accept that it is just a story, it isn't true. The bedrock of your beliefs is a lie.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Tradesecret
    Do you agree it is all about hebrew/jewish religious and ethnic identity, not 'what happened'?
  • Mopac
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    --> @keithprosser
    I think you are really taking that out of context from the article you pulled it from, but...

    I think you are missing the point. The point isn't the Jews so much as it is the God that used to Jews to demonstrate something.

    The focus here is God more than anything, and this is the God of all, not simply the Jews.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Mopac
    I try to imgine why someone would sit down to write a given text. 
    I imagine the writer of gen 1 was a pious yhwhist and a patriotic jew (there was little difference). he wanted to write something that would inspire his people, who had been badly beaten by the Babylonians and were now trapped in exile.

  • Tradesecret
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    No - you really do not understand my views at all. My bedrock is not Genesis - it is Jesus. 
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    --> @keithprosser
    Genesis was written well prior to the Babylonian context. 
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    I think it is all about God. 
  • disgusted
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    No - you really do not understand my views at all. My bedrock is not Genesis - it is Jesus. 
    Jesus is redundant without genesis the bedrock of your beliefs. Without the fiction of genesis, Jesus had no-one to save and nothing to save them from.

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    The focus here is God more than anything, and this is the God of all, not simply the Jews.
    Not in the OT, it was only the god of the Jews in the OT.

  • disgusted
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    Evidence?
  • Tradesecret
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    LOL! now that is funny coming from you. You never present evidence. 
  • Tradesecret
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    Jesus is redundant without genesis the bedrock of your beliefs. Without the fiction of genesis, Jesus had no-one to save and nothing to save them from.
    LOL!

    Jesus can never be redundant.  Jesus is God. Genesis tells the story of the beginning of the world. Yet without the story, the nature of humans is still real. It does not disappear just because you don't understand Genesis. My relationship with God is built on Christ, not on the story of Genesis. 

    I am not dismissing Genesis by the way, simply not relegating it to the same height as you. I do believe in a historical Adam and Eve. I also believe that Adam fell from grace. Yet this does not mean that I need to take the view that the earth is 6000 years old. Nor does it mean that I cannot take the view that God made the world. I don't have to dismiss evolution - so far as God is the directing force of it. 

    Some Christians may well reject Christ if you can prove evolution. Or that the world is more than 6000 years of age. For me the age of the earth is not that important - but it is important that God made it.

    For you - it seems that you think if you find a chink then you can prove God wrong and Christians foolish. Unfortunately for you, dismissing the story of Genesis is not going to be that chink. You seem to fail to realise that within the church which is very broad that these discussions have been going on for a very long time and it is not a reason for anyone to leave the faith or stop believing in God. 

    I have yet to see one argument on this entire site that has not already done the rounds within Christian circles. People are a lot more resilient than you give them credit for. you after all don't give up on your daft views despite repeatedly being shown how daft they are. Just take the example of morality - you cant give a half decent opinion about what you think it is and whether it exists absolutely or is a modern relative and subjective concept. Rather you avoid it - run away and attack hoping that no one will notice your omission. But guess what? Everyone sees your avoidance and laughs. 

  • Mopac
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    It is very clear even in the old testament that God is the God of all, whether or not proper acknowledgement is given.
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    Provide evidence that genesis was written before the Babylonian exile and why do you reject the bible as evidence since everything I argue comes from your bible?
  • disgusted
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    The god in the OT is very often referred to as the god of Israel, stop lying.
  • Tradesecret
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    You have not ONCE quoted the bible. I can think of nothing you have said that comes from the bible. Just cos you say it is - does not make it so. If you really were using the bible - then quote it. 

    Until you do, I don't believe you. 
  • Tradesecret
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    The first words in the bible are "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." - Genesis then goes onto say that Moses wrote it. Obviously he did not write the entire book - and many people try and say Moses never existed - yet, the Jews believe it. Moses was before the Babylonians exile.

    David refers to Genesis. David could not refer to a book that was written after he lived if it was written in the time of the Exile. Samuel and many others also refer to the book of Genesis. These authors lived after Genesis was written but historians place them before the exile of Babylon.

    It may be the case that Deuteronomy and Chronicles was written during the Babylon exile.  Jesus too refers to Genesis as at the beginning. Paul clearly does as well.

    the internal evidence is clear I think to refute the notion that Genesis was written during the Babylonian captivity.  
  • Mopac
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    The God of Israel is The God of All.

    It should be obvious that The Truth reigns supreme.


    But God scattered those building the tower of babel, rose pharaoh up to show His power, and called Cyrus by name.

    Even in The Old Testament, God is sovereign over all of Earth, not just Israel.

  • disgusted
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    It does not disappear just because you don't understand Genesis. My relationship with God is built on Christ, not on the story of Genesis. 
    I understand genesis, it's a fictional story written by ignorant, primitive, superstitious savages (IPSS) The story of christ is reliant on the genesis story being true and you have declared that not to be the case.
    I am not dismissing Genesis by the way, simply not relegating it to the same height as you.
    I place no credence in the story whatsoever.
    I do believe in a historical Adam and Eve. I also believe that Adam fell from grace. Yet this does not mean that I need to take the view that the earth is 6000 years old. Nor does it mean that I cannot take the view that God made the world. I don't have to dismiss evolution - so far as God is the directing force of it. 
    Adam and Eve and the rest of the story is pure fiction, who are you to accept some parts as true and other parts as false, by what metric to you make this distinction? By placing a god in the story of evolution you have already rejected the ToE, you are just fooling yourself when you say you don't dismiss evolution the evolution that you don't dismiss doesn't exist.
    Some Christians may well reject Christ if you can prove evolution. Or that the world is more than 6000 years of age. For me the age of the earth is not that important - but it is important that God made it.
    Evolution is proven and that does convince some that the bible god stories are fantasies, but the only reason to believe those stories is the abject fear of death you have been inculcated with. So you do believe that the world is 6000yrs old you were just evading that admission. The age of the earth proves your genesis myth to be a lie and all of your beliefs stem from that and that means that YOU ARE GOING TO DIE.
    For you - it seems that you think if you find a chink then you can prove God wrong and Christians foolish. Unfortunately for you, dismissing the story of Genesis is not going to be that chink. You seem to fail to realise that within the church which is very broad that these discussions have been going on for a very long time and it is not a reason for anyone to leave the faith or stop believing in God. 
    I have never attempted to prove your god wrong, your god doesn't exist, it is simply the imagination of the IPSS and can be dismissed without hesitation. There is nothing in genesis that is even worthy of consideration, real, actual science tells us the truth. Genesis is the fantasy of the IPSS. I don't care whether you stop believing in your god or any of the millions of other gods, I'm just pointing out how meaningless it will be when the evolved you dies just like every evolved life form to ever walk this planet.
    I have yet to see one argument on this entire site that has not already done the rounds within Christian circles. People are a lot more resilient than you give them credit for. you after all don't give up on your daft views despite repeatedly being shown how daft they are. Just take the example of morality - you cant give a half decent opinion about what you think it is and whether it exists absolutely or is a modern relative and subjective concept. Rather you avoid it - run away and attack hoping that no one will notice your omission. But guess what? Everyone sees your avoidance and laughs. 
    The christians all 40,000varieties of them have never made any credible arguments even for the existence of these gods they worship, get off your soap box until you can prove these mythical gods exist. I have stated from the outset, not necessarily in this thread perhaps, regularly on these boards that morality is completely subjective and you prove it by basing YOUR morality on the writings of the IPSS, you subjectively choose their misbegotten standards as your own.
    Everyone sees your lies and is in hysterics.

  • disgusted
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    The God of Israel is The God of All.


    That's your claim prove it.
    Get a Jew and a Hindu to support you.
  • Mopac
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    Hindus are devil worshippers, so it doesn't matter what they think.

    As far as I know, Virtuoso is an observant Jew, why don't you ask him yourself?

  • disgusted
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    You're a sucker for a kicking, aren't ya.

    The first words in the bible are "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." -
    Who wrote that and when, whoever they were they weren't witnesses so they had no way of knowing.
    Genesis then goes onto say that Moses wrote it. Obviously he did not write the entire book - and many people try and say Moses never existed - yet, the Jews believe it. Moses was before the Babylonians exile.
    So the author of genesis lied, Moses didn't write it but if he did what language did he write it in? Moses never existed, he is yet another fictional character. Do you know of the Nazi propaganda well the Jews in Babylon were way ahead of them.

    David refers to Genesis. David could not refer to a book that was written after he lived if it was written in the time of the Exile. Samuel and many others also refer to the book of Genesis. These authors lived after Genesis was written but historians place them before the exile of Babylon.
    Here is some truth just for you. If the authors in Babylon were writing a glorious history of a powerful empire that was really just a small insignificant little tribe of goatherds do you think they may include some smal examples of continuity? Mostly they failed in that regard but in your David scenario they got it right.
    It may be the case that Deuteronomy and Chronicles was written during the Babylon exile.  Jesus too refers to Genesis as at the beginning. Paul clearly does as well.
    The NT authors got 99% of their story straight out of the OT, anyone who reads it honestly can only come to that conclusion.
    the internal evidence is clear I think to refute the notion that Genesis was written during the Babylonian captivity.  
    It really doesn't matter when it was written, it's a pure fabrication. Who was there to record god saying let there be light?
  • disgusted
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    --> @Mopac
    IT'S YOUR SPURIOUS CLAIM HOW ABOUT YOU BACK IT UP.
    What does it matter what the Hindus are, if your god is the god of all as you claim then he is the god of hindus, devil worshipers, pagans, muslims, do you want me to go on?
    You just have to supply proof that the god who claimed to be the god of Israel is the god of all as you claim, he wasn't the god of the Amalekites just for starters.
    It's the god of Israel who calls himself the god of Israel so now we have another god lying or is it the same god or is it you lying.