Evil exists and is therefore evidence for the existence of an all powerful and all good God.

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  • Tradesecret
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    the atheist likes to suggest the following:

    An all powerful God could eliminate evil
    An all good God would want to eliminate evil.
    Evil exists
    therefore God probably does not exist.

    But the question is - what is evil?

    Evil is something but it is not some thing. It is not a thing so God did not need to make it.
    In fact God cannot be responsible for making it because it is not a thing.

    So what is evil?

    Evil is the absence of good. It is the hole in the proverbial donut. It is a shadow - it is coldness - that exists because of a lack of heat.

    Evil is therefore not defined by what it is - but by what it is not.

    Evil is therefore a departure from a perfect standard of good.
    There must be a perfect standard of good to measure good and evil.
    Good is closer to the benchmark and evil is further away from it.

    Therefore evil is a problem for the atheist not for the theist.
    If there is no God, Then there is no standard of morality.
    If there are no standards of morality - you can't say anything is evil.
    Therefore if you recognise evil - this is evidence for God, Not against God.

    How would you argue against this?

  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    --> @Tradesecret
    The abilities of a All powerful god.
    You talk about these All powerful gods like there is only one in the world 
    However if you were talking about  (  A mega super gold god ) well thats another story.  
    I myself highly doubt god would be able to make a sandwich. 

    Can you Use another  word otherthen " evil " ? 

    Or we can introduce  " A SCALE OF EVILESSNESSES "   A potato scale maybe ?
    1 potato is = ummmmmm not that bad. And ten tatos is the worst ever. 
    Then we will discuss the word  BAD.
    But this will be all ( ACCORDING TO YOU. ) 


    This is probably the main reason why i don't eat sun dried tomatoes.

  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    --> @Tradesecret
    I think theists don't want hear and definitely not except somthing like this. 
    Are you Ready? 

    If a person kidnapped , tortured , and ate half a dozen kids, well when this person dies he will meet the same thing as the kids he killed. 
    Now its only a assumption. 
    Its only a asumption. 
    Now this is a wild idea , so I'm just going to say it.

    The jew the Christian the Muslim the atheist , i suspect we are all just ummmmmmmmmmm . Like humans. 
    The same thing happens after death. 
    Crazy right. ?



  • Polytheist-Witch
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    The God you refer to is not good. He killed and raped. Get over it. Evil exist in men because it exist in gods. 
  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    It's Evil exists in man , not men. 
    But ummm No.  Evil doesn't exist.
    Now i could call you a name back for once in my life.
    But, but
    i think I'm just going to have a quick chuckle to myself in knowing full well what you think you know that evil is.
    Yeah. Ok ready?
    Actually lets all take5 maybe 6 seconds to think about what a poly witch thinks evil is. 
    It might help if you think of her like some kind of sleuth detective. Think of the reports that could be wrapped up with.  It was just evil. 

    6
    And a 5
    And a 4
    And 3
    Two and a one. 

    Mmmmmmm, yeah see i don't need to call you names. 
     







  • disgusted
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    --> @Tradesecret
    Which atheist?
    If you start with lies why would anyone believe you. You have no idea what atheists think and as an atheist neither do I, I do know what I think and that is that you are a proven liar.
  • Polytheist-Witch
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    --> @Deb-8-a-bull
    That's right fucking a six year old is just preference. Sick fuck. 
  • ludofl3x
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    --> @Tradesecret

    How would you argue against this? [accidentally deleted the part where you say evil is something but not a thing, sorry]


    First I'd start by pointing out that this is obviously self contradictory and seems to violate the idea that A can only be A, it cannot be both A and B at the same time, so I'd say this starts off on very poor footing. It doesn't take long to get to this, either:

    In fact God cannot be responsible for making it because it is not a thing.
    It is either a thing or not a thing. Do you have another example of something that's both a thing and not a thing, one, and two, this intimates that god didn't create everything in the known universe, which is what you would go on to argue. Futher:

    If there is no God, Then there is no standard of morality.
    If there are no standards of morality - you can't say anything is evil
    The standard of morality I presume you're using is the god of the bible. This character commits or sanctions a lot of acts we'd call evil, but you excuse with special pleading and divine command theory (which is again it's moral if god does it, like killing all the babies in the global flood or turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt: these are moral actions because if they weren't god wouldn't do them). That seems an extremely precarious standard of morality. Or maybe it's the ten commandments, of which four pertain to how you talk to god, but zero pertain to rape or slavery or the internet or weapons of mass destruction. 
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Tradesecret
    1 An all powerful God could eliminate evil
    2 An all good God would want to eliminate evil.
    3 Evil exists
    4 therefore God probably does not exist.

    But the question is - what is evil?


    4 should read 'an all good,all powerful god does not exist'

    Does an entity have to be infintely good and infinitely poweful to be a God?  Wouldn't 'very good' and 'very, very powerful' be sufficient?


    I suggest 'evil' is 'the set of all bad things'.




  • Tradesecret
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    --> @Deb-8-a-bull
    The abilities of a All powerful god.
    You talk about these All powerful gods like there is only one in the world 
    However if you were talking about  (  A mega super gold god ) well thats another story.  
    I myself highly doubt god would be able to make a sandwich. 

    Can you Use another  word otherthen " evil " ? 

    Or we can introduce  " A SCALE OF EVILESSNESSES "   A potato scale maybe ?
    1 potato is = ummmmmm not that bad. And ten tatos is the worst ever. 
    Then we will discuss the word  BAD.
    But this will be all ( ACCORDING TO YOU. ) 


    This is probably the main reason why i don't eat sun dried tomatoes.
    Hi there Deb-8-a-bull, thanks for your response. 

    I was not talking about an all powerful god, the atheist was to prove an all powerful god does not exist. 

    I am talking about evil and its reality. I suggested evil was something but not a thing. Evil is the lack of goodness. Many of us recognise evil - and sometimes we mix it up as being something all by itself. But I suggest evil is defined not by what it is - but rather by what it lacks or by what it is not. for example when we look at a donut we see the donut and we see the hole. But what is the hole in the donut? It is the spot where the donut is not. It is defined by what it is not. I suggest that evil - is the lack of where good is. 

    And although sometimes people might suggest it is a set of bad things - which in many ways is the same thing - we need to define or at least measure good or bad or right and wrong or evil and bad. 

    For us to recognise evil - we must have a measure, otherwise it is simply an opinion. An opinions might be incorrect, but otherwise like someone mentioned in a different place - it is also subjective - to the point that "rape" may not be evil but just that we have an opinion that it is evil. 

    But once we say we recognise evil - the implication is enormous - for it presumes a measure of perfection. And yes I would suggest it implies a perfect and all powerful God exists. Which of course then begs other more profound questions. Since an all powerful and all God does exist, why does evil exist? This then brings completely new areas for us to focus on - since the question of "if" is now redundant, then perhaps real thinking might be able to progress. I am hopeful even if others remain cynical. But some people prefer to remain in second grade rather than graduating. 
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @Deb-8-a-bull
    I think theists don't want hear and definitely not except somthing like this. 
    Are you Ready? 

    If a person kidnapped , tortured , and ate half a dozen kids, well when this person dies he will meet the same thing as the kids he killed. 
    Now its only a assumption. 
    Its only a asumption. 
    Now this is a wild idea , so I'm just going to say it.

    The jew the Christian the Muslim the atheist , i suspect we are all just ummmmmmmmmmm . Like humans. 
    The same thing happens after death. 
    Crazy right. ?
    That's lovely, but why do you think theists don't want to hear this? By the way do you like to hear about sick and perverted things like that? Do you think theists keep their heads in the sand and pretend that nothing bad ever happens? Why?  And with respect - you are wrong. Christians typically come from pretty bad situations in the first place - meet Jesus - and then receive power to cope and to deal with these things - not expecting the pain to disappear but to know how to live in the grace and mercy of God. 
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @Polytheist-Witch
    The God you refer to is not good. He killed and raped. Get over it. Evil exist in men because it exist in gods. 
    Well actually if you understood my logic, the God I refer to MUST be good and all powerful. It is not an either or.

    For us to recognise evil - a perfect measure must be available. Otherwise, we are all smoke and mirrors. 

    The implication of evil is that a all powerful and all God must exist. 

  • Tradesecret
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    --> @disgusted
    Which atheist?
    If you start with lies why would anyone believe you. You have no idea what atheists think and as an atheist neither do I, I do know what I think and that is that you are a proven liar.
    hi disgusted, sorry this topic has so upset you. It is no lie to say that Atheists often use the old arguments - that I summarised in the op. Richard Dawkins is a prime example. Many others - and I dare say you have too (at least if you are honest with yourself). 

    Atheists like any other group or groups in this world are full of people who like to think they are unique and individual and no one can work them out. Atheists in general have a common worldview - that is distinct from other groups in general. 


  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Tradesecret
    Evil is the absence of good.
    Not quite.  It's a little more like this, [LINK]
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Tradesecret
    And although sometimes people might suggest it is a set of bad things - which in many ways is the same thing - we need to define or at least measure good or bad or right and wrong or evil and bad. 
    Evil = the 'set of bad things' works very well in the context of the OP syllogism.

    1 An all good God would want to eliminate all bad things
    2 An all powerful God could eliminate all bad things
    3 Some bad things exists
    4 therefore an all good, all powerful God does not exist.

    For us to recognise evil - we must have a measure, otherwise it is simply an opinion. An opinions might be incorrect, but otherwise like someone mentioned in a different place - it is also subjective - to the point that "rape" may not be evil but just that we have an opinion that it is evil. 
    If we accept evolution, our behaviour is the product of evolution.  To survive we have to be encourged somehow to do what is good for survival and avoid what is bad for survival.   it appears the 'somehow' is that we have evolved a sense for what is good [for survival] and bad [for survival]. 

    But subjectively the way we perceive things is as [morally] good and [morally] bad.  It is important to note that what we perceive as [morally] good is only an approximation to what is good [for survival].   The match is not perfect because the mapping ws produced by the hit-and-miss process of mutation and natural selection.  The relationship between good[for survival] and [morally] good is (after millions of years of refinement) not too bad, but it's not perfect.

    So when we judge rape as bad it isn't 'just' an arbitrary random opinion with no basis - it reflects evolutions 'best guess' what is good for survival the species, expressed as a moral judgement.

    As every brain is unique,differnt brains may make different judgements of what is good and bad, and good and how bad.  For most humans the 'badness' we feel towards rape is more than enough to block that behaviour, but obviously that does not apply to everyone. 





  • b9_ntt
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    --> @Tradesecret
    How would I argue against this?
    I could say that Evil exists, and that Good is the absence of Evil. An all-powerful god created evil, so evil is the standard.
    or,
    If specifically the Christian god,
    God said that he was responsible for evil (Isa. 45:7). So he is not perfectly good.
  • WisdomofAges
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    --> @b9_ntt
    NO HUMAN ever needs the validation and approval to EXIST and DIE  by some retarded Comic Book GOD Character imbecile...


    The Bible is a horrifically OBSOLETE compilation of hypnosis psychosis verse VOMIT used as a BRAINWASHING TOOL..

    Only a FOOL would fall for this idiotic fake story trash and there are billions ready to destroy the planet along with the
    ALLAH God retards...both GODS SUCK...both are old man invented and stolen ideas from other cultures in the region

    there is absolutely NOTHING original about the JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God garbage...

    These 3 GOD hoaxes are the catalyst of EVIL since their inception....all 3 GODS are built on a platform of
    FEAR-INTIMIDATION-VIOLENCE this is their TRUTH...they invented EVIL...and promote it as a TOOL
    to force weak minded humans into CULT SLAVERY...OK they can have it and ROT in it all....

    The sooner these Parasite Vampires drop dead the sooner humanity and Earth will thrive like never before


    Do YOUR part to help RID EARTH of these 3 totally fabricated Middle East GOD hoaxes for power and control

    When YOU encounter a JEW-JESUS-ALLAH God vomiting Vampire...look him/her in the EYE and see first hand
    a totally BRAINWASHED and HYPNOTIZED sheeple slave drone whose only purpose is to LURE YOU into
    their CULT...and serve them till you drop dead

    Remember these are HYPNOTIZED and BRAINWASHED humans that play GOD...they could care less about some
    invisible half ass idiotic fairy tale GOD....invented by long ago illiterate tribal lunatics...they want POWER and CONTROL
    they are the greatest THREAT to everything on this amazing world...

    HELP RID EARTH of the JEW-JESUS-ALLAH disease.....none of these 3 idiot GODS has ever existed, they are Comic 
    Book fairy tales...and used as scapegoats to commit atrocities against humans and Earth's environment....they are
    HELL...they are EVIL....they are man made CON ARTIST TOOLS of OPPRESSION....flush all 3 down the TOILET 

    ..............and FORGET they ever existed......




  • disgusted
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    --> @Tradesecret
    According to the IPSS book the god of that book created evil.
    The IPSS from whom you get your morality have an always changing standard of morality lower than a snakes belly.
    In future just post your own idiocy and don't pretend it comes from atheists.
    What, in my post, could possibly convince you that I was upset. Other than projection of course.
  • disgusted
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    --> @Tradesecret
    hi disgusted, sorry this topic has so upset you.
    ?????????????????
    It is no lie to say that Atheists often use the old arguments - that I summarised in the op.
    You meant to say some atheists.
    Richard Dawkins is a prime example. Many others - and I dare say you have too (at least if you are honest with yourself). 
    Is Richard Dawkins someone important to you? And once again your accusations are untrue, that's what makes you a congenital liar.
    Atheists like any other group or groups in this world are full of people who like to think they are unique and individual and no one can work them out.
    nd this unsupportable brain fart is just another of your lies. It's an absolute fact that I've never been exposed to a theist who had any understanding of atheism.
    Atheists in general have a common worldview - that is distinct from other groups in general. 
    Nice disingenuous copout to finish on.


  • Polytheist-Witch
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    --> @Tradesecret
    I don't care what you think the stories say otherwise. 
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Tradesecret
    I think the argument simplifies to

    Evil does not exist, but good does.  Evil is only the absence of good.  (a parallel is light and dark).
    Evil appears to exist therefore good does exist.
    God is required for good to exist.
    Therefore god exists.

    is that a fair summary?


  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Tradesecret
    I haven't been much on the boards lately and mostl6 just reading when I do but this caught my eye. You seem to be misunderstanding or perhaps just miscategorizing this argument. This argument does not bring us to the conclusion that no god(s) can exist but merely that certain proposed deities are logically inconsistent and that therefore these particular proposed deities are unlikely to exist. I personally do mot generally like the wprds.good and evil since they would seem to presuppose an objective moral standard that I do not believe exists but this particular chestnut is actually meant to illustrate how some theistic beliefs are logically inconsistent and has little to do with atheists as they do not propose any omniscient omnibenevolent being. It also has little or nothingvto do with theist, like polytheist witch, who do not propose that the gods they believe in are omniscient and omnibenevolent.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Tradesecret
    the atheist likes to suggest the following:An all powerful God could eliminate evilAn all good God would want to eliminate evil.Evil existstherefore God probably does not exist.But the question is - what is evil?Evil is something but it is not some thing. It is not a thing so God did not need to make it.
    In fact God cannot be responsible for making it because it is not a thing.So what is evil?Evil is the absence of good. It is the hole in the proverbial donut. It is a shadow - it is coldness - that exists because of a lack of heat.Evil is therefore not defined by what it is - but by what it is not.Evil is therefore a departure from a perfect standard of good.There must be a perfect standard of good to measure good and evil.Good is closer to the benchmark and evil is further away from it.Therefore evil is a problem for the atheist not for the theist.If there is no God, Then there is no standard of morality.If there are no standards of morality - you can't say anything is evil.Therefore if you recognise evil - this is evidence for God, Not against God.How would you argue against this?
    It sounds like you're saying, god is light, and you can't have light without shadow.

    But this is not true at all.

    It is possible to configure a system of lights that eliminate shadows. [LINK]

    I mean, I guess the question is, (IFF) god (light) is everywhere (THEN) there can be no shadows.

    And, (IFF) there are shadows (THEN) god (light) is not everywhere.
  • Castin
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    --> @Tradesecret
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)

    ?

    Evil is something but it is not some thing. It is not a thing so God did not need to make it.
    In fact God cannot be responsible for making it because it is not a thing.
    I don't really understand. Evil's not a thing? Are concepts not things? I'm pretty sure I've referred to abstract concepts as things before.
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Castin
    Not to justify that passage just yet, but have you read that whole chapter?
    Even if we conclude from that verse alone that God "creates" evil, it's still not an object or a thing. I'll tell you what, read that chapter in full and then I'll post another passage that may balance that one out. First read that chapter (not just that verse) and tell me what ya think.