Theists, Atheists and Agnostics!

Author: EtrnlVw ,

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  • EtrnlVw
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    EtrnlVw
    So around these parts mostly the discussions revolve around whether or not God exists, the "Bible is immoral" and or which religion is correct blah blah blah ect ect....how about we do something a little different and discuss/debate assuming a Creator and the soul exists and that religion for this topic is irrelevant, since it seems no progress can be made on whether or not God does exist or why there are so many religions (even though I've offered decent propositions) how about we have a topic that assumes Theism true (specific gods irrelevant)....any questions or propositions are welcome. Agnostics, it would be good to discuss this with you more than the atheist preachers of this site we need more middle ground curiosity.

    Isn't there any non-believer or agnostic curious about a Creator "if" It exists? and what that means to us/you? it's obvious that some people find Theism to be absurd or stupid but is it not a fascinating inquiry to anyone? if it is fascinating to you ask whatever you want, or bring up whatever issues you have about Theism or spirituality and not just the Bible.
    Theists, Atheists and Agnostics doesn't matter really, let's discuss deeper issues no matter what belief you may have. Theists this is for you too, questions are for everyone even if you have religious beliefs! the Theistic community would do a lot better if they collaborated more rather than argue.
    The more you understand creation and Theism the more it may seem more realistic to you or something you could consider, and it's not always the Theists that know about God or spirituality believe it or not. You/we all come from the same Source no matter the belief so you may have intuitions and ideas about God that are correct, you are not an outsider or someone that knows nothing, feel free to bring some unique thoughts forward, or unique questions...I want to hear more from non-believers and their ideas/questions about God or the afterlife. If you have ideas or intuitions about any of this feel free to share and elaborate on it.
    I'm not responding to any posts that are uninteresting or insulting.

  • Polytheist-Witch
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    Since you asked nice I will stay out of this one but honestly you may get two sincere posters who will participate 
  • Outplayz
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Well, the way i look at it is a bell curve. Just like iq has its curve. There are the, um... mentally challenged, to the average level, to the genius level. I look at spiritual intelligence the same. It's a bell curve were the atheists are in the mentally challenged range, to the average religious, to the genius level of deeper understanding. Now that's not an insult to atheists... although maybe i shouldn't say it how i did, but it's an example... okay. They are most definitely not mentally challenged, but they sort of are in the spiritual sense. This has to be this way. Actually, i would say, unlike iq, this bell curve is flipped. I bet people on the opposite end, atheists, do better in this life bc they are focused solely on this life. That's the only way we are going to get scientists that will break through. Richard Dawkins wouldn't be who he is if he wasn't how he is on this curve. So unlike iq were the other side of the curve determines more success, i would say the opposite is true for spiritual intelligence. 

    Now this isn't saying people on the other side of the bell curve can't be successful. This is very unlike the iq, just similar bell curve. However, lets call them the genius level spiritual people will impact this world different than the opposite end. The average, religious, portion of it will also do fine. Now agnostics are the most interesting to me bc they can be anywhere on the bell curve. 

    I bring this bell curve up bc some scientists think that's just how humans are due to evolution. That it is purely of this world. I would disagree bc the entire bell curve can be construed under spiritual speculation as well. Bc if you manifest here to be Dawkins, you will manifest here on the left side of the bell curve. If you want to come here remember just enough to have a belief, you manifest here on the average side of the curve. If you manifest here wanting to know as much as you can in such a reality, you come here on the tail end. All of this can be correlated to a spiritual manifestation of who you want to be, or who you are to this world. 

    Anyways, thought you'd find that interesting and maybe i can trigger some atheists to join. 
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Assuming that some god(s) exist how do we make any determinations about god(s) without a method for falsifying claims?
  • disgusted
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    Let's assume that a creator and souls don't exist and then look around at what does exist and existence confirms that reality is totally in accord with those assumptions. There is absolutely no need for the man made claims as to the existence of a creator and souls.
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @secularmerlin
    Assuming that some god(s) exist how do we make any determinations about god(s) without a method for falsifying claims?

    Is making determinations about god or a Creator difficult for you? if you knew that you were an expression of this Source, and you knew that the very being, nature and core of both you and that Source were identical how hard would it be to determine something about It? you and God are both conscious beings expressing themselves through creation, and that conscious reality is eternal. 

    Methods for falsifying claims in the spiritual arena are the same for any other way you determine something....does it makes sense, is it logical, is there evidence (in this case testimonial)..... use common sense, backing sources, cross referencing, intuition/instinct, application and observation ect ect.
    The only important distinction to be made of course (what should be obvious) is the nature of Theism and spirituality vs the nature of the material world and carnality, you are dealing with a reality that transcends the physical sense perception but other than that the methods of falsifying are basically the same once you realize there's a difference between observing a physical phenomenon vs a spiritual or transcendent one. Take away the physical object factor and we still have common sense, logic, evidence (testimonial), experience, backing sources, cross referencing, intuition, instinct, application and observation ect ect...

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Outplayz
    Anyways, thought you'd find that interesting and maybe i can trigger some atheists to join. 

    I found it very interesting. 
  • Outplayz
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Take away the physical object factor and we still have common sense, logic, evidence (testimonial), experience, backing sources, cross referencing, intuition, instinct, application and observation ect ect...
    I really wanted to answer that, but i thought i'd sit back and let you have a go at it first. I agree, those are the ways we have to test transcendent matters. But, i think Merlin is going to come back with there are no methods to falsifying a claim. But i think he is thinking of it as a scientific method... which he's sorta right. We don't have anything to "prove" spirituality. Spirituality falls under pseudoscience... but that doesn't make all the methods you explained incorrect in getting closer to the truth or even to the truth. We just can't prove it with physical instruments. Science is mainly for the physical (this reality), pseudoscience is for the transcendent.   

    I'm glad you found that interesting. I heard a scientist talk about it in an evolutionary sense to debunk spirituality... and right away i thought, wait, there is a perfect spiritual explanation to it too. 
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Is making determinations about god or a Creator difficult for you? 
    Yes.

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @secularmerlin
    Yes.

    Erasing religions from the scene totally give me an example. Given that you understood the conditions I proposed...

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Outplayz
    I really wanted to answer that, but i thought i'd sit back and let you have a go at it first.

    One of the first things I realized when entering the debate world is that atheists, some agnostics and even many believers haven't realized that spirituality is an objective reality not just a subjective one. Meaning that there are in fact higher conscious realities that exist independent of personal opinions and feelings and so there is an objective nature involved. The way we "prove" or support something is through our own observations along with others (cross examination), and when we examine spirituality and religions as a whole, along with spiritual experiences and NDE's the evidence is overwhelming....one would have to be pretty stubborn not to look at the numbers and consider the knowledge involved in a transcendent reality. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Outplayz
    Spirituality falls under pseudoscience...

    That's what they label things they have yet to acknowledge or understand lol, it's like a way to throw information they refuse to consider out the window or a way to cover their ears. Spirituality being dynamic, is also yet simplistic, the mechanics of it are simple when broken down however the implications are incredibly dynamic. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Outplayz
    There's a science to the soul and to the nature of consciousness! it can be articulated and experienced and "spirituality" (observation of a transcendent reality) is the method by which we learn, observe and propose this reality. The whole of spirituality and spiritual experience is a vast, available body of facts and information indicating whether this belief/reality or proposition is true or valid. 
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Erasing religions from the scene totally give me an example. Given that you understood the conditions I proposed...
    I'm sorry but an example of what?

  • disgusted
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    --> @Outplayz
    Spirituality falls under pseudoscience.
    Spirituality falls under imagination.

  • disgusted
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    Your argument in precis: Spirituality is real because I want it to be. Well done you.
  • Outplayz
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    --> @disgusted
    Spirituality falls under imagination.
    Sure, i won't agree with you completely bc it's more than just that, but i will concede that there is a lot of imagination involved. Now, does that give it any less validity? What if i told you i was able to imagine it since i was old enough to think? Why is that? Why would i remember something, at the time, i had no clue. I just believed this isn't the only reality i've been to... at like the age of 5. 

    Plus, a little story that i found further interesting other than my childhood intuition of it. I was on my first bus ride to school, kindergarten. I remember a kid getting bullied a couple seats back bc a couple kids. They were pulling his pants down and... yeah, showing his stuff. I was engulfed in anger, but i knew i had the power to stop it. I kept asking for that power, but it wouldn't manifest. I went home and told my mom, at 5 years still, why can't i use my powers in this reality. I know i have them, but they're not coming out. 

    Now that is all imagination as you say. A kid's imagination. But there are elements of things i shouldn't have known... how is it i even imagined these things in the first place? Can it just be a kid's imagination... that without knowing what a hero or superhero is, as kids we have that trait encoded in us so that's why i imagined that way even without understanding what it meant. Maybe, that's a natural explanation. Or, was i as a kid always on some kind of different frequency where i vaguely, but clearly too, remembered this isn't my first life? Following some other experiences i've had through the years, it seems this latter explanation is showing me... maybe there's a little more to imagination than processes in the brain. 

    But who knows right? Like i gave an example... there is a perfect natural explanation too. But i don't think you know, just as i don't know, which is true. But i can draw a conclusion with both the natural explanation and a spiritual one.   

  • Outplayz
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    along with spiritual experiences and NDE's the evidence is overwhelming....one would have to be pretty stubborn not to look at the numbers and consider the knowledge involved in a transcendent reality.
    It's a human thing... if they haven't seen it themselves, than it's not real. Now that isn't everyone. Some people love these stories and it gives them pondering moments about spirituality. But good luck getting a skeptic / atheist to take it serious if they've never experienced it. They are on the left side of the bell curve. They're mind just don't work the same as someone spirituals does. But that's what makes this world so perfect and intricate in all of its players. 

  • disgusted
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    --> @Outplayz
    Your spiritual explanation explains nothing, it pacifies you.
  • disgusted
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    --> @Outplayz
    ET has god worlds that he has visited, I wouldn't put any stock in what he babbles, every second Thursday he probably turns into Napoleon.
  • Outplayz
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    --> @disgusted
    Your spiritual explanation explains nothing, it pacifies you.
    Okay. I'm sure you know best. 
  • disgusted
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    --> @Outplayz
    At least I have no need of imaginary worlds and characters and afterlives in order that I live and love.
  • Outplayz
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    --> @disgusted
    At least I have no need of imaginary worlds and characters and afterlives in order that I live and love.
    That's great! I have nothing against that and take your view seriously. Although, it may not be the truth personally for me, but that has nothing to do with you and can very well be your truth.  

  • Melcharaz
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    One main problem about believing in a God (Especially in an omnipotent, omniscience and invisible one) is that there are forms of observation that we don't have access to that they might, or that we cannot know things that these beings might know.  So what do we do with information we are given that we don't understand? Logic won't work until we learn and observe what we don't know, emotions are often wrong. What can show the nature of Gods as they proclaim themselves? Most likely those who are representatives of the said God should have understanding of the God's nature.

    Id say spiritual knowledge, which comes from (Spirits, Ie, God/Gods) manifesting themselves so we can detect and understand them.

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Melcharaz
    One main problem about believing in a God (Especially in an omnipotent, omniscience and invisible one) is that there are forms of observation that we don't have access to that they might, or that we cannot know things that these beings might know.  So what do we do with information we are given that we don't understand? Logic won't work until we learn and observe what we don't know, emotions are often wrong. What can show the nature of Gods as they proclaim themselves? Most likely those who are representatives of the said God should have understanding of the God's nature.

    God's nature is simplistic, it's the implications of the nature of God are what become so incredibly dynamic. I agree with everything accept "logic won't work", I think that logic goes a long way in Theism and why wouldn't it? Emotions are not the same as logic, logic can be used without emotions without any doubt. I like your last sentence the most though...because it's actually the nature of God that is the biggest missing link between atheism and spirituality/Theism. I've been trying to get atheists to look at the nature of God for so long, it doesn't seem to have any impact though. It's kind of like they want to ignore that little bit of information. It's the very nature of God that makes the distinction between a material, carnal experience and a spiritual, Divine one.

    Id say spiritual knowledge, which comes from (Spirits, Ie, God/Gods) manifesting themselves so we can detect and understand them

    True, but we have that same nature potentially. If we are spiritual, we too can be the same conduit of knowledge obviously, that's how a conduit works.