Canzuk

Author: Alec ,

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  • Alec
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    Canzuk is free trade and open borders between Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK.  Should it exist?  If so, should the US and Ireland join it?
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @Alec
    Congress would never allow it as it would be a racist policy to have open borders with those nations and not Mexico.
  • Alec
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    --> @Greyparrot
    They are culturally similar Nations that we are dealing with.  If Mexico joins, it can cause a separatist movement on the basis of culture.  Puerto Rico is culturally different from America and many there want to form their own country.  This is without the locals being oppressed.
  • dustryder
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    My uninformed response would be yes, because I like the thought of free movement. That said, I'm sure there are many problems that I'm unaware of that would need to be solved. For example, while Australia and New Zealand already have such a relationship, the relationship is not equal.

    As to the US and Ireland, it's less should and more would they be allowed right? What links the four nations together are culture, country prosperity and the British commonwealth. Ireland and the US are fine on the first two, but they basically gave the middle finger to the British commonwealth when they declared independence

  • Alec
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    --> @dustryder
    I think the British Commonwealth should not be a requirement for Canzuk membership.
  • dustryder
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    --> @Alec
    You have to set a defining criteria at some point in a relationship. It just so happens that one such criteria in this particular proposed relationship is historical and contemporary ties to Britain. For example, Queen Elizabeth II is still technically the monarch of all of those countries. And through this, the countries are closer to each other than to America in terms of politics and culture

    The answers here are an interesting read


  • Alec
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    --> @dustryder
    The criteria could just be you need English as the predominant language of your country and you have to have a GDP per capita above $35,000 per person on average.  The countries of Canzuk are liberal, and there are many left leaning Americans.  There are also many conservative Canzuk members so we're not super different from Canzuk.  The US just has some differences.  The Queen is just a figurehead, she doesn't have much power.  They therefore should be able to overlook whether or not you recognize the Queen as your head of state.  The main comment on that site stated 2 things wrong with the US joining.  They were:

    -America is more right wing: About half of this country is left wing.

    - America will dominate Canzuk.  Assuming there was proportional representation, apart from the fact that the UK would dominate the current Canzuk since it's population is higher then all the other countries put together, I found a way for the US to get more representation without dominating Canzuk.  The representation is in the following link:


  • Polytheist-Witch
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    Why? We are not the property of the monarchy
  • Alec
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    --> @Polytheist-Witch
    I don't think we have to be.  Canada isn't the monarchy's property.  Australia isn't property of the monarchy.  Not even the U.K. is property of the monarchy.  The monarchy has little to no real political power.  All it does is it promises free trade and open borders within all involved countries.
  • dustryder
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    --> @Alec

    America is more right wing: About half of this country is left wing.
    So when discussing right wing/left wing politics, it's important to keep in mind it's not a binary system whether you either are or are not left/right wing. It's how much you are of either. From what I've read, it's agreed that US left wing politics are typically more right wing than other democratic nation right wings. And the results of this are fairly evident in the differences between policies in the nations. For example, health care, gun restrictions, free speech and social welfare. 

    Hence I think it's fairly evident why people have proposed the Canzuk agreement without the US. Of course that doesn't mean that there cannot be another agreement proposed that includes the US. You'd just need to provide strong justification for the union. For example, is language capability and country richness a criteria? Then why not include the scandinavian countries and germany?
  • Alec
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    There are some areas where liberal America is more right wing then the rest of the world like with healthcare.  However, in many liberal states, AK 47 and similar guns are banned, many liberals want to place restrictions on free speech, although I don't think any western country has had censoring laws.

    There are some areas where the west is more right wing then the American liberals.  On abortion for example, America to the best of my knowledge is the only western country to legalize it up until 20 weeks.  Most other western countries, it is legal, but only to about 12 weeks and there are restrictions for it (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/in-liberal-europe-abortion-laws-come-with-their-own-restrictions/278350/).  I also don't think they would approve of AOC's Green New deal, which provides unemployment benefits to those unwilling to work.  This is basically UBI, which only a few countries to my knowledge have tried, and these countries have gone back on it.

    For example, is language capability and country richness a criteria? Then why not include the scandinavian countries and germany?
    I think it is for Anglophone nations only, and you can't be in the EU to qualify.  The only country that might join from the group is Norway.  I hope they join, but this would require enough support among Noreigeins.  I imagine that this can be obtained.

    I think at least the concept of Canzuk should exist partly because most people of all 4 current countries agree to it.  The US can join in once it is established.  We get tax less trade and open borders with culturally similar countries.  For example, we're more culturally similar to Canada then we are to Puerto Rico(PR), and we have open borders with PR.
  • dustryder
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    --> @Alec
    There are some areas where liberal America is more right wing then the rest of the world like with healthcare.  However, in many liberal states, AK 47 and similar guns are banned, many liberals want to place restrictions on free speech, although I don't think any western country has had censoring laws.

    There are some areas where the west is more right wing then the American liberals.  On abortion for example, America to the best of my knowledge is the only western country to legalize it up until 20 weeks.  Most other western countries, it is legal, but only to about 12 weeks and there are restrictions for it (https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/08/in-liberal-europe-abortion-laws-come-with-their-own-restrictions/278350/).  I also don't think they would approve of AOC's Green New deal, which provides unemployment benefits to those unwilling to work.  This is basically UBI, which only a few countries to my knowledge have tried, and these countries have gone back on it.
    But when considering the united states as a whole and it's federal laws, the US is general far more conservative. Even with liberal-ended federal laws, actual implementation on a state basis can detract from the overall intent. For example, from what I understand, typically conservative us states are continuing to attempt to place laws that limit availability and the criteria for abortion. For example, limiting the amount of abortion clinics available. In general in other western countries however, while there are obviously dissenting opinions from private advocacy groups, this does not rise to enacting legislature that flouts the intent and spirit of law.

    As for UBI, yes, it's controversial topic. However just because the US has AOC, does change the overall political climate

    I think it is for Anglophone nations only, and you can't be in the EU to qualify.  The only country that might join from the group is Norway.  I hope they join, but this would require enough support among Noreigeins.  I imagine that this can be obtained.
    Why anglophone versus countries with extremely high english literacy rates? There's little meaningful difference right?
  • Alec
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    --> @dustryder
    But when considering the united states as a whole and it's federal laws, the US is general far more conservative.
    When factoring in Republicans, this is true.  What is more liberal, Europe, or liberal America?  I think it's about the same.

    For example, from what I understand, typically conservative us states are continuing to attempt to place laws that limit availability and the criteria for abortion.
    Both the left and the right want to reduce abortions, and this will reduce abortion clinics.  The right ultimately wants to ban abortion or to allow it in rare situations.  They also want to overturn Roe V Wade to return the abortion decision back to the states.  The left wants abortion legal until 20 weeks unrestricted nationwide. Europe wants to reduce them too, but they have it legal until 12 weeks at the median.

    Why anglophone versus countries with extremely high english literacy rates? There's little meaningful difference right?
    I'm fine with Norway joining Canzuk.  The question is, are Noreigeins okay with it?  Since they speak Noreigean as well as English, they might not be willing to join Canzuk on that basis of that culture difference.
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @Alec
    Norway still hasn't forgiven the UK for the battle of Hastings.
  • Alec
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    That was a long time ago.  No Brit alive today was part of the Battle of Hastings.
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @Alec
    It's a cultural thing.
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Alec
    If Brexit happens, yes.

    If Brexit ends up turning into a legal-stalemate or whatever, then no. Staying in the EU will always be the optimal move for the UK. Always. This is about more than just culture but even including that. The UK is culturally closer to a nation like Sweden than it is to a nation like Canada. The fact that Canada was a colony and doesn't hate that it was doesn't really mean much. When it comes down to it, Canada and US's rivalry is entirely artificial (not even superficial, artificial). When a war happens, Canada is begging US for protection and when it comes down to UK and who has its back, it's gotta be France & Co. You can't seriously think that new-age Germany is UK's enemy either.

    Aussie and NZ absolutely should have such an arrangement between one another.
  • Alec
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    If Brexit happens, yes.
    If the UK has this alternative, Brexit probably will happen.

    Aussie and NZ absolutely should have such an arrangement between one another.
    They do.
  • dustryder
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    --> @Alec
    When factoring in Republicans, this is true.  What is more liberal, Europe, or liberal America?  I think it's about the same.
    But America doesn't consist of only liberal Americans. It also consists of conservatives. You can't split apart liberals and conservatives, only look at liberals and say that Americal is liberal. You look at the country as a whole, its policies and its ideologies.

    Both the left and the right want to reduce abortions, and this will reduce abortion clinics.  The right ultimately wants to ban abortion or to allow it in rare situations.  They also want to overturn Roe V Wade to return the abortion decision back to the states.  The left wants abortion legal until 20 weeks unrestricted nationwide. Europe wants to reduce them too, but they have it legal until 12 weeks at the median.
    Again, you can't make distinctions between the left and right as if they are separate entities in terms of global politics. There is only America. And America's overall stance leans right compared to the proposed members of Canzuk

    I'm fine with Norway joining Canzuk.  The question is, are Noreigeins okay with it?  Since they speak Noreigean as well as English, they might not be willing to join Canzuk on that basis of that culture difference.
    Well at this point it's not a question of willingness. It's a question of eligibility. And on that topic, why do we need to restrict it to English? The EU makes do with it's hodge podge of languages. Why shouldn't, for example Switzerland also join in?
  • Polytheist-Witch
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    --> @Alec
    No one alive today in America owned slaves, was in the Civil War or killed Native Americans in mass but guess what. 
  • disgusted
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    polly wolly
    If they didn't go to Mass they'd still own the country then, yes?

18 days later

  • Alec
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    --> @dustryder
    If the US is more right wing then Canzuk, What's wrong with this?  America been pretty united despite states like Texas being more right wing then states like NY.

    And on that topic, why do we need to restrict it to English? The EU makes do with it's hodge podge of languages.
    The EU came into existence when many European nations wanted to emulate the US.  The main reason why they aren't one country yet is because of cultural differences.  This isn't just language.  Austria for example is culturally different from Germany.  If they were culturally similar enough, they would be in the same country.

    Why shouldn't, for example Switzerland also join in?
    I don't think the Swiss would want to.  You shouldn't force a country to join your alliance without just cause.  If Switzerland won't join the EU, I doubt they would join Canzuk.
  • dustryder
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    --> @Alec
    If the US is more right wing then Canzuk, What's wrong with this?  America been pretty united despite states like Texas being more right wing then states like NY.

    The approaches to policies are just different. This complicates things. Taking the existing trans-tasman agreement as an example, both new zealand and australia have universal healthcare. This in turn allows for a reciprocal agreement in which citizens of both countries are allowed the use of the public healthcare while residing in either country. Our tertiary education systems also involves different pricings for domestic and international students, with the government subsidising domestic study. Under the agreement, citizens of either country are treated as domestic students. The approach to healthcare and education is somewhat similar in both Canada and the UK. This isn't really the case in the US.

    As for the EU, the goal of the EU was not to form a distinct country or emulate the US. Nor is it the goal of the proposed CANZUK. In this regard, the spoken language doesn't really matter right?