Does God Fore ordain? or only see the future and react to it?

Author: Melcharaz ,

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  • Melcharaz
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    Specifically God of the bible.  also known as Yahweh, Jehovah, Yahuah or Jesus/Yushua.

    foreordain or preordain means that God has created the sequence of events of creation.  aka, he already knows if you are going to heaven/hell and there is nothing you can do about it.

    Or does he simply see the future and reacts based on how he sees things?
  • disgusted
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    --> @Melcharaz
    If your god is omniscient (knows all) then he creates billions of souls to be tortured for eternity.
  • Melcharaz
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    According to fatalism, you would essentially be correct, however it was also their choice to agree with it and refused to love or serve God.  Fatalism simple refers to the destiny of the people, that it is predetermined, but it doesn't address the willful choices of the people to march into that destiny.
  • disgusted
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    --> @Melcharaz
    Your god knows before creation that Fred is in hell and yet he creates Fred anyway, your god created Fred to be tortured for eternity, what a loving god.
  • ludofl3x
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    --> @Melcharaz
    Do people have a choice to NOT go wherever this pre-ordained destiny makes them go? I'm confused by your post. 

    If you can choose to do or not do something, isn't it by definition not pre-ordained? If your predestination is to go to hell, what difference would choosing to love god make? If the answer is you then don't go to hell, you're not pre-ordained. 

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Melcharaz
    When something doesn't sound right or comes across as a really bad idea it's usually because it is. Calvinism along with Catholicism are probably the worlds most ridiculous belief systems. Not that Catholicism is in the same theoretical position, but both belief systems are corrupted and irrational. As well not everything in the Bible is true or accurate (surprise, surprise), but as far as "predestination" goes we don't really see that until the Epistles, the God of the OT seemed quite irritated with mans actions (Noah's Arc obviously) and if that is the case predestination is not fully Biblical and not fully supported only by a few passages being interpreted. Predestination could also mean "what God wants" instead of "what God gets"....big difference there. The theme we observe throughout the entire Bible is that God does not always get what God wants, and this becomes the process for the individual soul.

    The trick is that God can create a sequence of events in our world without preordaining mans actions so I'm going with this "he simply sees the future and reacts based on how he sees things". It's much like having a pet or creating an environment for a pet, you basically create the pets world and you are that pets Master without controlling or preordaining what it chooses. So basically you have a predestined setting without preordained choices.
    Now if you want some legit reasoning here the secret lies within the fact that man has a creative nature, the dynamics involved in placing free, creative creatures in a dualistic environment to make choices based on the perceptions of experiences is far too vast and complicated for any predictive element even for the Creator, the potential outcomes are simply too complex. However like you mentioned it's not hard for God to predict something (at some point AFTER creation is set in motion) especially being omnipresent and knowing/experiencing all things in the present moment or having much greater insights and knowledge in any given moment in time.
    This is also the investment the Creator has in all of this though, that God does not know every action and outcome before it takes place as this would get pretty monotonous even for the Creator. Rather every experience is as fresh as the creative imagination is, and of course if this is true then it is also true that we are accountable for everything we do unlike if Calvinism were true....actions, thoughts and desires would be mechanical rather than free and to preordain is to take away accountability leaving the process of spirituality to no effect. So which one is it? the answer becomes obvious that what I'm writing above is probably the more accurate, rational belief.

    Now moving away from just the Bible and the Jewish God, we are here to have experiences and those experiences are based on our own choices and desires/wants, as well can be based on what we need to learn in a lifetime here. The settings and environment of our experiences are established before we arrive on this planet but our reactions and choices to that environment are not. This is the learning curve of our experiences, we are not preordained robots we are literally learning from our circumstances in the moment whether God knows the outcome or not. Since God has access to every channel of awareness God gets the same fresh experience we do, this is what makes creation interesting for a Creator as well as the individualized soul.
    And, if there is no real distinction between the nature of God and the soul itself (other than states of awareness) it also becomes obvious why all this exists. Because God, just like us wants a new and fresh experience away from the alone state. And God does accomplish this through each created being.

  • Melcharaz
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    The reason we don't see predestination is because it was hidden from the old testament. Once Jesus came on the scene and died and gave the holy ghost, the mystery of the world was no longer veiled, God fore ordained all things.

    Id word it differently, Id say God knew fred would choose to go to hell and he would be merciful to fred regardless of how evil or disobedient fred was.

    Ah! you wish to understand the prescribed will of God and the ultimate plan of God?  Like how God told moses he was gonna destroy israel and make of Moses a great nation and how it seems moses changed his mind? 
    or perhaps when King hezekiah of Judah was about to die as proclaimed by God through the prophet Isaiah and then he weeped and prayed to God to spare him and God added 15 years to his life?

    God is Lord of the spirits, he knows how people feel because he allows them to feel it. You think that everyone who acts rebelliously is something God had no hand in?  He allows us to choose whether to submit to that spirit or to another, and once we have chosen to hate and disobey God, he gives us over to that spirit whereby we don't even know what is godly anymore.  Romans 1 and romans 9 work really well to discribe sin and its nature and predestination.

    There are multiple verses that support fatalism if you would wish to discuss them!
  • ludofl3x
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    --> @Melcharaz
    God knew fred would choose to go to hell and he would be merciful to fred regardless of how evil or disobedient fred was. 

    Does Fred end up in hell or not? That'd clear up what otherwise seems a pretty contradictory post: either he knew he'd end up in hell and he ends up in hell (omniscient god, preordaining things including the destiny of people) or he knew he'd choose to be in hell and forgave him anyway (inconsistent with Christian doctrine, you yourself call anyone who doesn't choose god, including babies in remote deserts of Australia who never heard of Jesus, "enemies of god") OR he didn't know if Fred would end up in hell despite what he thought was going to happen when he created Fred (making it possible for god to be wrong about things).

    It's a complicate system you have going there!
  • Melcharaz
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    God knows that fred would make such a choice and he uses even the disobedient for a reason! who knows if fred's adamant stance against God might spark anger in someone who was on the fence in believing in God?   The disobedient are reserved for the day of wrath and destruction. But they also made the choice to be disobedient.   Yes, fred would go to Gehenna for his willful disobedience. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Melcharaz
    Well I don't know who you want to discuss this with but "he already knows if you are going to heaven/hell and there is nothing you can do about it" coming from the Creators point of view is pretty insane because it presupposes we are puppets and not created conscious beings that choose our own destinies. Perhaps you would like to reconsider what I wrote...? because you didn't address any of it...
  • ludofl3x
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    --> @Melcharaz
    I can see I was, unsurprisingly, wrong, you did not clarify what you wrote at all. You wrote both of these. How does:

     Yes, fred would go to Gehenna for his willful disobedience.  
    jive with this:

     God knew fred would choose to go to hell and he would be merciful to fred regardless of how evil or disobedient fred was. 
    If he ended up in hell, how was god merciful and forgiving, exactly?
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Melcharaz
    Fatalism simple refers to the destiny of the people, that it is predetermined, but it doesn't address the willful choices of the people to march into that destiny.
    Destiny and meaningful choice are mutually exclusive. Destiny implies that one will suffer the same fate regardless of one's choices.

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Melcharaz
    God knows that fred would make such a choice

     But the question is when did God know Fred would make such a choice? preordained or as it unfolded? 

    and he uses even the disobedient for a reason!

    Who are the "disobedient" if Calvinism is true though? disobedience plays no role in predestination. That should be very obvious....
  • Melcharaz
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    Preordained and i know nothing about calvinism, i'm simply refering to the bible.   But i would contend otherwise, that disobedience does play a role in where a person's soul goes. Not a 1 time disobedience mind you, but a continual rejection of God and his ways.
    Im actually doing a debate about it if you wanna watch and comment!
  • disgusted
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    --> @Melcharaz
    Id word it differently, Id say God knew fred would choose to go to hell and he would be merciful to fred regardless of how evil or disobedient fred was.
    But that would just be a lie to appease your irrational and contradictory beliefs regarding your god.
    Fred is not going to hell in this scenario Fred is already in hell according to gods knowledge thus making your god not omnipotent for if he was then he could make changes to that scenario.
    He's being merciful by torturing Fred for eternity WTF? You need help with understanding the meaning of words.


  • disgusted
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    et
     But the question is when did God know Fred would make such a choice? preordained or as it unfolded? 
    Read the fukin scenario.

  • Melcharaz
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    God knew before and was actively working in his life. God was using every form he could to try to convince him that he was sinning and was still showing mercy by letting him live, though he foreknew and fore ordained that he wouldn't make it.  So when judgement comes, even though he did evil and was destined for it, he couldn't argue with God about it cause God was merciful to him regardless and he still had a life that he made decisions in and lived it the way he wanted.
  • Goldtop
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    When something doesn't sound right or comes across as a really bad idea it's usually because it is. Calvinism along with Catholicism are probably the worlds most ridiculous belief systems.
    Yet, your belief system is by far one of the most ridiculous ever presented on a public forum. You've almost got Scientology beat for being ridiculous.
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Goldtop
    Yet, your belief system is by far one of the most ridiculous ever presented on a public forum.

    Haven't seen nothin yet. Barely scratched the surface!!

    You've almost got Scientology beat for being ridiculous.

    Almost? guess I have to work harder on that for ya....

  • Stronn
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    --> @secularmerlin
    Destiny and meaningful choice are mutually exclusive. Destiny implies that one will suffer the same fate regardless of one's choices.I 
    I would say, rather, that destiny implies that choice is an illusion.
  • Stronn
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    --> @Melcharaz
    If God knows I am going to hell, and God is never wrong, then I have no choice but to go to hell.

    It is contradictory to say that I have a choice, but at the same time God knows what that choice will be. Choice implies two or more possible alternatives. If God knows which alternative I will take, and God is never wrong, then only one alternative is actually possible. Therefore no choice exists.

  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @Stronn
    If God knows I am going to hell, and God is never wrong, then I have no choice but to go to hell.
    It is contradictory to say that I have a choice, but at the same time God knows what that choice will be. Choice implies two or more possible alternatives. If God knows which alternative I will take, and God is never wrong, then only one alternative is actually possible. Therefore no choice exists.
    Ooof.
    I guess he would still try to sliver his way out of this one.
    Great statement. I will be stealing it I mean using it as a framework to my arguments. 
    Thank you
  • Melcharaz
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    God knowing you are going to hell and God fore ordaining you are going to hell are 2 different things.  Hezekiah was decreed by God to die, yet he prayed to the Lord and he added 15 years to his life.
  • Melcharaz
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    Also, God may know where you are going, but you don't.  as far as you know, you could be one of the elect of God just waiting on the right message or spirit of God to change you.
  • Melcharaz
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    and not only does he know where you are going, he actively working in your life to try to save you from sin. Even if he already knows you will rebel or resist him.
    with knowing comes choice, without knowing comes restriction.