Very Flesh & Blood "angels".

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Devout Christians still to this day believe  that the  " angels of god"  where a type of ethereal being  created by god and who  sometimes perform miraculous acts on behalf of their Lord. None of this is true of course and we know this because scripture itself makes it very plain that "angels" are no more ethereal than you or I, that is to say, that they were very flesh and blood. But this, like many other biblica thorny facts are hard to understand and or accept for many Christians.

Is it because of verses such as :

“Praise ye him [God], all his angels ... let them praise the name of Jehovah; for he commanded, and they were created” (Ps. 148:2, 5).?

“[God] made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts ... and the host of heaven worships you” (Neh. 9:6).?

It seems that these angles were even a puzzle to those that witnessed them:

Hebrews 1:14
"Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation"?


The word -  Angel -  means nothing more than messenger. The Greek is - Angelos. Malakh, the Hebrew word for angel, also means messenger, and both words coincidently originate from the Persian word for angel, angaros,  meaning a - courier. These are simple facts that the devout Christian will still deny although  biblical scholars are in agreement with these translations.

Christians have no trouble whatsoever accepting that John the Baptist  for instance was a flesh and blood man, but when they are informed that he was an "angel", they somehow recoil at the shock that such a thing can even be suggested, yet right there, in their own scriptures it clearly states from god himself:

Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: “‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,  who will prepare your way before you.

And as any reader of the bible will attest, it was John the Baptist who goes before and who was to "prepare the way" for the Christ. 

The argument against this is usually put thus:

'All that was created by god  came into being during the first week (Ex. 20:11), and since the angels “shouted for joy” when the “foundations of the earth” were laid (Job 38:4, 7), this proves that angels came into existence during the initial stages of God’s creative activity.'
 
So according to Christians angels were created in the heavens and therefore were here before  any flesh and blood being and since the beginning of time and are spirits. 

 Lk. 24:39 tells us spirits do not have flesh, bone and one assumes any blood either  "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have".

But whatever it was that Luke and Christians understood these beings to be, they were definitely not ethereal /spirit. And we know this because once again it is the biblical scripture itself  that tells us as much and the one extremely good example has to be Genesis 19:1-11. And not wanting to be accused of "quoting out of context" here is the story with the salient points highlighted  and interjected by me in italics:


Genesis 19:1-11
The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 

2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet   (these would be flesh and blood feet) and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”

“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”

3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. (Lot then, was able to change the minds of these spirits) He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. (these "angels" have to eat, a very human need is eating).

4 Before they had gone to bed, (they sleep too it seems) all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 

5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? (men??) Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.” (angels having physical sex???)

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 

8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, <<< (men? not spirits not ethereal beings?) for they have come under the protection of my roof.” 

9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. “This fellow came here as a foreigner, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

10 But the men <<< (men?not spirits not ethereal beings) inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

The biblical evidence above as to the real nature and makeup of the "angels" will of course not be accepted the devout Christians. But the biblical facts speak for themselves.









WisdomofAges
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The ABRAHAMIC GODS are a JOKE...used to incite FEAR - INTIMIDATION - VIOLENCE all 3 are human INVENTIONS and are WORTHLESS..


..........The TRUTH revealed.....but YOU ......PGA2.0................can't handle the TRUTH..........your BRAIN is saturated with BIBLE VERSE VOMIT
and Church brainwashing DOGMA....YOU are a slave to a Comic Book Story HOAX....as children are when they are exposed to Santa Claus...
and become convinced they must OBEY the RULES in order to receive the GIFTS they DESIRE...this FORMULA for HYPNOSIS PSYCHOSIS
to accept what is told to them as FACT...is eventually understood by the child as a CLEVER HOAX....to teach them how to OBEY and be rewarded
for doing so....it's a simple technique = OBEY or be PUNISHED and SUFFER....this is the foundation of the JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD garbage

This FORMULA of OBEY or be PUNISHED is used by the Middle East JEW - JESUS - ALLAH Parasite VAMPIRE preachers who act like a GOD and through clever MIND CONTROL STRATEGIES dumb down the children and adults to accept their asinine GOD - Bible / Koran / Torah Comic Book VOMIT as an absolute TRUTH....

Why then are 3 GODS needed ?  3 GODS remain from the thousands before them invented and worshipped in the middle East ?  

and what of all the other GODS humans invented and worship around the world in the PAST and PRESENT TIMES ?   

Oh RIGHT, according to the pathetic BRAINWASHED and DUMBED DOWN ......PGA2.0.......who is incapable of independent thought and reasoning
all must accept his / her ? idiotic version of some comic Book Bible VOMIT and the GOD attached to it or forever be WRONG and CONDEMNED to
HELL !   what a FOOL.....to believe this horrifically childish and OBSOLETE Cartoon GOD character = JEW - JESUS - ALLAH invented by old men
in a long gone and absurdly IGNORANT era of humanity...whose only purpose was to assimilate and enslave weak minded humans int some idiotic CULT
so the old men could play GOD with them !   what a JOKE....

the ABRAHAMIC Jew - Jesus - Allah GOD hoaxes PROVE beyond any doubt how TRULY STUPID the masses of humanity are...so easily manipulated into slavery and servitude of an invisible SUPER BEING who itself is to FCKG LAZY to actually show up and guide its own idiotic
human creation from exterminating itself !   because his own creation does not believe he exist so they create other GODS ....!

Like,       HEY Joe...YOUR GOD SUCKS...let's create a new GOD and call it  BETTY .....OK Joe said....and then we can go back to KINDERGARTEN
class and make all the other kids OBEY our NEW GOD...BETTY !   or else we will tell them they will be expelled from school if they don't accept....
...COOL !  Joe said.....now I to can PLAY GOD and make the other kids OBEY ME...because I am BETTY's Prophet...!   Prophet Joe in the name
of "GOD BETTY" all must OBEY....Kneel for BETTY...beg for forgiveness...for YOU have SINNED and "BETTY" is angry with YOU....repent...
CONFESS your CRIME of even existing as a SINNER...now fall on the floor and shake for "GOD BETTY"  to prove your loyalty....then OBEY me
PROPHET JOE....for only I am the speaker of GOD BETTY....all rise...and bow to me Prophet JOE....your guide and MASTER to all things "BETTY"

OBEY....or be PUNISHED and SUFFER....so says "GOD BETTY" and I Prophet Jow will carry out all punishment...as it is written in the NEWER
TESTAMENT.....the word of "GOD BETTY"  the BETTY BIBLE....all kneel and thank Lord "BETTY" for this gift...the BETTY BIBLE" of verse VOMIT
for all to LIVE and DIE by.....

..........The Abrahamic GOD garbage is nothing more than a TROJAN HORSE PLOY used to assimilate truly STUPID humans into slavery of some 
idiotic JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD invented CULT .....truly the HELL on this EARTH these Parasite VAMPIRES are who fabricated this 3 GOD 
garbage hoax and the idiots that are HYPNOTIZED and FOLLOW this crap to their GRAVES...


Seems that all YOU are capable of is VOMITING Bible verses....unable to use your mind freely....you are just another hypnotized slave sheeple 
drone.....OK keep on VOMITING VERSE after VERSE till you drop dead.....what an amazing life you are living....NOW GO VOMIT more VERSES...

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--> @WisdomofAges
Oh RIGHT, according to the pathetic BRAINWASHED and DUMBED DOWN ......PGA2.0.......who is incapable of independent thought and reasoning
all must accept his / her ?
Since you do not respond to PMs, I will reach out to you here. You were banned for repeatedly violating the site's policy against making personal attacks like the one quoted here, despite receiving multiple warnings to desist from such conduct. If you persist in making remarks like these, the penalties you face will escalate. If you wish to discuss this further, please reach out to me using the site's private messaging (PM) system.

You can find the site's code of conduct here: https://www.debateart.com/rules
Stephen
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--> @bsh1

Since you do not respond to PMs,..........If you persist in making remarks like these, the penalties you face will escalate. 

Where in the rules does it state that you can just simply jump on a thread to air your disciplinary rules? If he is not responding (if indeed a request to respond was issued) then you should just suspend him and not threaten members with penalties and suspension on someone else's thread.  You have me put on a warning for politely telling someone that I would report them if they persisted in abuse. But here you are making threats to members for all the forum to witness.. 
So if you don't mind, take your petty squabble somewhere else. and refrain from using my thread to further your own ends/arguments.


TheRealNihilist
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--> @Stephen
But here you are making threats to members for all the forum to witness.. 
bsh1 said:
Since you do not respond to PMs
The very first line so he is justified in using his most recent response to issue site rules. If he answered his PM's bsh1 would not have resorted to this. 
Harikrish
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--> @Stephen
Where in the rules does it state that you can just simply jump on a thread to air your disciplinary rules? If he is not responding (if indeed a request to respond was issued) then you should just suspend him and not threaten members with penalties and suspension on someone else's thread.  You have me put on a warning for politely telling someone that I would report them if they persisted in abuse. But here you are making threats to members for all the forum to witness..
So if you don't mind, take your petty squabble somewhere else. and refrain from using my thread to further your own ends/arguments.


You have no friends here. What have you got to lose? 
Stephen
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--> @Harikrish
You have no friends here. What have you got to lose? 

Yes, its very sad, isn't it? Do you not feel sorry for me?  I did after all join this forum to make as many many life time friends as I  possibly could.
Harikrish
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--> @Stephen
Yes, its very sad, isn't it? Do you not feel sorry for me?  I did after all join this forum to make as many many life time friends as I  possibly could.

Maybe you should  try Harikrish's Golden Rule Plus.

Love thy neighbour, but be likeable yourself.

For what does it profit a man to love the world but be disliked by all.
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--> @Stephen
AHHHHhhhh.............the PETTINESS of it all !    the never ending SQUABBLE....the never ending THREATS....


..............THREATS.....always the THREATS of PUNISHMENT and SUFFERING for not being a good HYPNOTIZED SHEEPLE ZOMBIE SLAVE of the SYSTEM....these are the RULES....OBEY.....or BE PUNISHED !   a perfect STRATEGY for CONTROL....devised and deployed by the Abrahamic
JEW - JESUS - ALLAH God inventors and the Religious IDIOCY = DOGMA the Parasite MIND and LIFE MOLESTERS attach to their invented GOD

HOW APPROPRIATE !   all OBEY or be CONDEMNED and REMOVED from this GLORIOUS FORUM ( Concentration Camp)  YOU are being watched...and JUDGED as to YOUR worthiness to speak in this CLOSED MAZE of a Religious FORUM....a maze without an EXIT, a maze with
unlimited OBSTACLES to PREVENT and DESTROY the OPEN MINDED FREE WILL and FREE SPEECH thinker and reasoner....NO NO NO....
the FORUM POLICE SAY......do only as YOU are TOLD....OBEY.....or BE PUNISHED.....

Praise the CLOSED and IMPOTENT MIND....OBEY....it is the WILL of the JEW GOD...the JESUS GOD hoax...and finally the 3rd stooge of Middle
East Abrahamic GODS = ALLAH !   3 totally IDIOTIC man made GOD hoaxes...all at WAR against each other..EACH the ONLY TRUE GOD !   

How can this be ?......???????........3 totally invented GODS...JEW - JESUS - ALLAH....and where are these GODS NOW ?   oh, playing GOLF
with each other on some remote MOON in another Solar System....NO TIME for their PATHETIC HUMAN CREATION DISASTER.....

The HUMANS are determined to EXTERMINATE each other over their GOD differences....and what do the GODS have to say about this ? ??????

UH,   not AVAILABLE for COMMENT....like NOT AVAILABLE because NONE of these 3 STOOGE GODS exists...they were invented by some miserable TRIBAL PSYCHOPATHS as TOOLS...and SCAPEGOATS to further their pathetic STATUS since they had NONE for thousands of years
in the region...The JEWS pulled off a great HOAX with their MOSES meets GOD JOKE...

1st came MOSES meets his GOD farce...then 1500 years PASS...and the infant boy JESUS Joke arrives (pops out of some illiterate tribal JEW GIRL)
and declares himself the JEWISH MESSIAH !  what a JOKE....and the JEWS ?  well they decided to have ROME execute the HERETIC...Hahahah
how PATHETIC !   and of course ROME loves a spectacle and gladly complies with JESUS grand EXTERMINATION !   Hahahaha....the stuff of Comic
Books....then it took 300 more years to pass before the JESUS jew boy fake GOD was martyred into a GOD by then Emperor Constantine !   

I Constantine...Emperor of ROME declare JESUS as the one and only GOD to be worshipped !   SCREW THOSE JEWS !   Hahahaha..what a JOKE! 

Then 300 more years pass and its around 600 AD....and some wandering illiterate tribal ARAB LUNATIC has his chat with GOD and VOILA !  
ALLAH has arrived !    Gee...what did the JEW GOD of MOSES have to say about that MOVE !   Hahahaa....FOOLS these Arabs are for I am
the GOD of MOSES...the one and only TRUE GOD....these pathetic imitations are a DISGRACE !   JESUS a boy God HOAX and this ALLAH 
imbecile..both invented by ANTI JEW GOD psychopaths....all are LIARS...and will be PUNISHED.....


and so the TYRANNY BEGINS among these 3 STOOGES these 3 idiotic GOD hoaxes...

Each l stolen from other civilizations who wrote the original stories that are now TWISTED into the JEW - JESUS - ALLAH God Religious HOAXES....all 3 are a DISGRACE...all 3 GODS are the work of psychotic FOOLS...Comic Book characters..nothingmore.....silly...childish..immature...
designed for truly STUPID HUMANS to become enslaved by clever MIND MOLESTERS who invented this GARBAGE......
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--> @WisdomofAges



..............THREATS.....always the THREATS of PUNISHMENT and SUFFERING for not being a good HYPNOTIZED SHEEPLE ZOMBIE SLAVE of the SYSTEM....these are the RULES....OBEY.....or BE PUNISHED !   a perfect STRATEGY for CONTROL....devised and deployed by the Abrahamic
JEW - JESUS - ALLAH God inventors and the Religious IDIOCY = DOGMA the Parasite MIND and LIFE MOLESTERS attach to their invented GOD

HOW APPROPRIATE !   all OBEY or be CONDEMNED and REMOVED from this GLORIOUS FORUM ( Concentration Camp)  YOU are being watched...and JUDGED as to YOUR worthiness to speak in this CLOSED MAZE of a Religious FORUM....a maze without an EXIT, a maze with
unlimited OBSTACLES to PREVENT and DESTROY the OPEN MINDED FREE WILL and FREE SPEECH thinker and reasoner....NO NO NO....
the FORUM POLICE SAY......do only as YOU are TOLD....OBEY.....or BE PUNISHED.....

Praise the CLOSED and IMPOTENT MIND....OBEY....it is the WILL of the JEW GOD...the JESUS GOD hoax...and finally the 3rd stooge of Middle
East Abrahamic GODS = ALLAH !   3 totally IDIOTIC man made GOD hoaxes...all at WAR against each other..EACH the ONLY TRUE GOD !  

How can this be ?......???????........3 totally invented GODS...JEW - JESUS - ALLAH....and where are these GODS NOW ?   oh, playing GOLF
with each other on some remote MOON in another Solar System....NO TIME for their PATHETIC HUMAN CREATION DISASTER.....

The HUMANS are determined to EXTERMINATE each other over their GOD differences....and what do the GODS have to say about this ? ??????

UH,   not AVAILABLE for COMMENT....like NOT AVAILABLE because NONE of these 3 STOOGE GODS exists...they were invented by some miserable TRIBAL PSYCHOPATHS as TOOLS...and SCAPEGOATS to further their pathetic STATUS since they had NONE for thousands of years
in the region...The JEWS pulled off a great HOAX with their MOSES meets GOD JOKE...

1st came MOSES meets his GOD farce...then 1500 years PASS...and the infant boy JESUS Joke arrives (pops out of some illiterate tribal JEW GIRL)
and declares himself the JEWISH MESSIAH !  what a JOKE....and the JEWS ?  well they decided to have ROME execute the HERETIC...Hahahah
how PATHETIC !   and of course ROME loves a spectacle and gladly complies with JESUS grand EXTERMINATION !   Hahahaha....the stuff of Comic
Books....then it took 300 more years to pass before the JESUS jew boy fake GOD was martyred into a GOD by then Emperor Constantine !  

I Constantine...Emperor of ROME declare JESUS as the one and only GOD to be worshipped !   SCREW THOSE JEWS !   Hahahaha..what a JOKE!

Then 300 more years pass and its around 600 AD....and some wandering illiterate tribal ARAB LUNATIC has his chat with GOD and VOILA ! 
ALLAH has arrived !    Gee...what did the JEW GOD of MOSES have to say about that MOVE !   Hahahaa....FOOLS these Arabs are for I am
the GOD of MOSES...the one and only TRUE GOD....these pathetic imitations are a DISGRACE !   JESUS a boy God HOAX and this ALLAH
imbecile..both invented by ANTI JEW GOD psychopaths....all are LIARS...and will be PUNISHED.....


and so the TYRANNY BEGINS among these 3 STOOGES these 3 idiotic GOD hoaxes...

Each l stolen from other civilizations who wrote the original stories that are now TWISTED into the JEW - JESUS - ALLAH God Religious HOAXES....all 3 are a DISGRACE...all 3 GODS are the work of psychotic FOOLS...Comic Book characters..nothingmore.....silly...childish..immature...
designed for truly STUPID HUMANS to become enslaved by clever MIND MOLESTERS who invented this GARBAGE......

You should ignore them just like they ignore you. That way you can proudly say it is mutual contempt. Instead, you appear to be on your own ranting at the world seeking attention for your condition .i could hear your ranting from DDO.

9 days later

Stephen
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It appears yet again that christian apologist simply cannot face facts. It  shouldn't though,  come as any surprise.  But at least no one wants to kill me for criticizing Christianity and questioning the bible. I am not even called  christianophobic.
disgusted
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--> @Stephen
Obviously in the wrong country, there are places where such behaviour could quite easily get you killed. Your bigoted ignorance might protect you though, who knows, certainly not you.

9 days later

WisdomofAges
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--> @Stephen
.......New WORLD News.........every since the elimination of the Abrahamic GODS to Comic Book Mythology in 2022 the Middle East has had 
an unprecedented surge in new infrastructure and cooperation among the up and coming generations....never before has there been such
unity and harmony among the people of this region where some of earliest and advanced cultures flourished 6 - 8 thousand years ago...

More excitement is building as researchers are discovering more and more amazing artifacts and information on these amazing ancient 
civilizations...

As the older generations DIE off and take their horrifically OBSOLETE and OPPRESSIVE Comic Book GODS and DOGMA
to the grave with them... a revitalization of the region has occurred in place of the CONFLICT - FEAR - VIOLENCE....which
dominated the region for 5000 years...

These are truly EPIC TIMES as all of HUMANITY has trashed the Abrahamic GOD construct for POWER and CONTROL of the MINDS 
and LIVES of BILLIONS....now that humanity is FREE from the parasite VAMPIRE bondage founded by the defunct Roman Catholic Church
and the MUSLIM Allah God garbage....it's like a perpetual spring time all over the planet...

Live WELL - LONG and PROSPER is the new MANTRA of humanity....a true breath of fresh air now that the HELL on EARTH Abrahamic
JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD are meaningless Mythology and Comic Books for entertainment only...

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--> @Stephen
In many icons you see of Saint John The forerunner(aka John the baptist), you will see him depicted with angel's wings.

As you have mentioned, it is because the word for angel means messenger.


You will even see in the epistle to the Hebrews...

"Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."

That said, a message does not have to be delivered by a flesh and blood human being. There are many forms a messenger can take (a little bird told me, eh?). 



Bodiless powers are a thing though. You could say here in the contemporary world, technology has made them more visible than ever! 






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--> @Mopac
Yeah.No miracles here.
Stephen
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--> @Mopac
because the word for angel means messenger.

Yes, I know. I mentioned that in my opening OP. Didn't you read my op at all?

Here post #1 this is part of what I wrote




--> @StephenThe word -  Angel -  means nothing more than messenger. The Greek is - Angelos. Malakh, the Hebrew word for angel, also means messenger, and both words coincidently originate from the Persian word for angel, angaros,  meaning a - courier. These are simple facts that the devout Christian will still deny although  biblical scholars are in agreement with these translations.


a message does not have to be delivered by a flesh and blood human being. There are many forms a messenger can take (a little bird told me, eh?). 

Stop being so childish.

There are many forms a messenger can take (a little bird told me, eh?). 

That simply means informant or spy. Like " he's singing like a canary", meaning someone is informing on someone else. FFS grow up!

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--> @Stephen
You literally clipped the first half of that sentence which was "as you mentioned".

I'm not interested in argument for arguments sake. Especially when my entire post was practically confirming what you said.