Fear of hell, desire for heaven, or for goodness sake

Author: Mopac ,

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  • Mopac
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    Mopac
    "If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands, we are in the position of children." ~ Saint Basil the great
  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    --> @Mopac
    I went with the, ' This life mine / afterlife life gods. PACKAGE
    You went with the. This life according  to a god / afrterliife , Life ' MEGA JACKPOT '  PACKAGE.
    " Afterlife " being ummmmmmm , your life after after this life , like ya living life. 
     
    I have observed you have had a one / two week break from this site. 
    You have then returned and created two post topics straight scripting saint baz bloke. 
    Stay with me pacmo. 
    Since you like " come back " kind of thing , ive noticed a differ in your ummmmm  Attitude so to speak. 
    Your calmer and this new just post a scripture ta shlt ya nonsense is welllllll its different . 
    I simply feel your a diffrent mopac. I think something major has happend to ya in the last like two three weeks. 

    ARE YOU OK? Im here for you FULL STOP..
    Actually mopac , can you do us a huge favor mate and um, pop ya mom on the computer for a sec please mate. 
    I promise to be respectful to your mom. Its just , its just im a little worried. 

    I feel your last two post topics are so kind of penance. 
    Good game.

  • keithprosser
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    --> @Mopac
    Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands,
    Typical of the religious 'for the sake of the good itself' and 'out of love for [God]' are joined.   For a humanist atheist,there is no need for the 'love of god' bit and so might rewrite the passage as:

    "If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself, we are in the position of Mr Derek." ~ Basil the Brush.  Boom boom!

  • secularmerlin
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    --> @keithprosser
    I noticed he used "as a child" as though that were synonymous with good. In truth children are selfish self absorbed and cruel as often as not. They lack empathy and have an incomplete ethical framework. It is not until we are taught about the social contract and develops empathy that we become descent human beings.
  • Alec
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    Religious debates are so confusing.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Alec @secularmerlin
    Conusing indeed!
    I don't quite get 'as a child...'.  I can't be sure if its meant to be good or bad!  I'm assuming good because the others are more obviously bad.
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @keithprosser
    I'm sure he will be along soon to tell us we do not understand and are mischaracterizing his argument while at the same time offering no actual clarification of how it should be characterized.
  • WisdomofAges
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    --> @Mopac
    the CHRISTIANS are HELL on EARTH,  so after death there is obviously RELIEF from these Parasites....

    Everyday people are MURDERED in the name of JESUS or ALLAH....no other GODS are used for
    DEATH and DESTRUCTION like the JESUS and ALLAH God invented garbage.....

    Now more than EVER all of humanity needs to agree that JESUS and ALLAH are in the same category
    as ZEUS and ODIN...= Comic Book characters for entertainment only....

    No one is bowing or preaching about ZEUS or ODIN...+++ thousands of other GODS humans have
    invented and trashed over the eons...

    The GREATEST DISGRACE and THREAT to HUMAN, ANIMAL, ENVIRONMENT, and literally the
    PLANET itself are the CHRISTIANS and MUSLIM Parasite VAMPIRES...all these morons do is
    incite FEAR -INTIMIDATION -VIOLENCE in order to assimilate weak minded people into some
    horrifically OBSOLETE and OPPRESSIVE CULT....

    All of the JESUS and ALLAH based CULTS are obsessed with CONTROL....no human can function
    with a truly OPEN MIND and LIFESTYLE without facing CONDEMNATION and SUFFERING from
    Parasite VAMPIRES who PLAY GOD...in the name of their fake GOD hoax....

    This need to CONTROL the MINDS and LIVES of their enslaved human sheeple is the PURPOSE
    of these CULT ORGANIZATIONS...

    Just look at the DISEASE spread by the Roman Catholic Parasites...the Jehovah's Witnesses, the
    Latter Day SATANS, and countless other absurd spins on the boy GOD hoax JESUS Rome invented.

    Worse is the everyday DEATH and DESTRUCTION by JESUS idiot neighbor GOD invention by the
    ARABS who are desperate to totally eradicate the JEWS for their GOD hoax...let alone the CHRISTIAN
    infidels as they describe them !

    The Middle East GODS are used to TERRORIZE humanity...all 3 are twisted and stolen versions of other
    GODS and stories of Cultures long gone...but exploited for their creations including GOD inventing...

    SOLUTION to the Middle East CRISIS and the WORLD CRISIS of OPPRESSION and EXPLOITATION

    .........is the IMMEDIATE REINVENTION of the JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD hoaxes into Comic Book
    Mythology for entertainment only....so when anyone says i BELIEVE in YAWEH - JESUS - ALLAH
    just smile, laugh, and say well that's great !  and alot of people DON't they BELIEVE in ZEUS and ODIN
    and want more Comic Book Movies featuring them....your Middle East GODS are tired and boring
    has beens....then walk away !   and FORGET.....
  • Mopac
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    --> @keithprosser @secularmerlin
    It amazes me how the two of you put so little effort into understanding what I say, and then accuse me of not clarifying.

    I feel no conviction at all. I can see plainly what I have to work with.


    Though I can see neither of you are genuinely interested in understanding Christian theology, what is meant by "position of children" does not imply immaturity, but a relationship of a child to their father. We who are of Christ are sons and daughters of God.

    Rather, this is a mature relationship with God. An immature relationship with God would be thst of a slave or mercenary.


    While the atheist sees no need for God, it isn't because they are good. Without God, the atheist has no real knowledge of what good is. After all, God is the highest good, because God is The Truth. The atheist, who by nature is in denial of Truth, inevitably has an arbitrary conception of what good is. To the atheist, good is simply whatever lines up with their aesthetic preferences. 

    In fact, the atheist would nearly always fall into the category of slave or mercenary because their measure for good tends to be utilitarian.



  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Mopac
    When I do what I consider to be right it is not for wages or for fear of punishment nor for any god(s) but for the sake of other human beings. 

    That is the category of responsible adult which is what a real father wants for his children. It is only demagogues and tyrants that want eternal dependence. Or more accurately the illusion of dependence. Generally speaking this dependence is manufactured rather than genuine.
  • Mopac
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    --> @secularmerlin
    To declare independence from The Truth is to embrace delusion.

    Abide in The Truth, and you will find real charity.

    To think that you have any existence apart from God is delusion.

  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Mopac
    As I said manufactured dependence. And since you are proclaiming rather than discussing again that is probably all I have to say to ypu on the subject.
  • Mopac
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    --> @secularmerlin
    Not suprising, as you can't even admit that there is an ultimate reality. 

    It should be apparent that you are dependent on many things, the source of which is the underlying originator and sustainer of all creation.


  • disgusted
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    --> @Mopac
    Just look at the shape of the puddle.
  • Mopac
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    --> @disgusted
    Just look at the shape of the puddle.

    What do you mean by this?

  • Stronn
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    --> @Mopac
    Doing good for the sake of doing good and doing good for the love of he who commands are two wildly different things. I can see how the latter might be analogous to a child obeying a parent, but the former? Not at all.

  • disgusted
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    --> @Mopac
    Don't worry, the answer is well beyond your capacity to understand.
  • Mopac
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    --> @Stronn
    While in any other case you would be right to say, this is special case.

    Who is doing the commands in this case? Goodness itself. Goodness is what commands. 


    So in this case, it is in fact doing good for the sake of good.

    That is why we Orthodox don't take faith as something to be simply believed in the mind or accepted. Faith is lived. We don't simply believe in The Truth, we strive to live Truth.

    And that is what the faith is really about. Abiding in The Way. This is a walk, not an intellectualization.


    The one making the commmands is Goodness itself. That is why it is good for goodness sake.




  • Stronn
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    --> @Mopac
    Sounds like you are an advocate of Divine Command theory, which says actions are good because and only because God says they are good.
  • WisdomofAges
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    --> @Deb-8-a-bull
    .......New WORLD News.........every since the elimination of the Abrahamic GODS to Comic Book Mythology in 2022 the Middle East has had 
    an unprecedented surge in new infrastructure and cooperation among the up and coming generations....never before has there been such
    unity and harmony among the people of this region where some of earliest and advanced cultures flourished 6 - 8 thousand years ago...

    More excitement is building as researchers are discovering more and more amazing artifacts and information on these amazing ancient 
    civilizations...

    As the older generations DIE off and take their horrifically OBSOLETE and OPPRESSIVE Comic Book GODS and DOGMA
    to the grave with them... a revitalization of the region has occurred in place of the CONFLICT - FEAR - VIOLENCE....which
    dominated the region for 5000 years...

    These are truly EPIC TIMES as all of HUMANITY has trashed the Abrahamic GOD construct for POWER and CONTROL of the MINDS 
    and LIVES of BILLIONS....now that humanity is FREE from the parasite VAMPIRE bondage founded by the defunct Roman Catholic Church
    and the MUSLIM Allah God garbage....it's like a perpetual spring time all over the planet...

    Live WELL - LONG and PROSPER is the new MANTRA of humanity....a true breath of fresh air now that the HELL on EARTH Abrahamic
    JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD are meaningless Mythology and Comic Books for entertainment only...

  • WisdomofAges
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    --> @Deb-8-a-bull
    .......New WORLD News.........every since the elimination of the Abrahamic GODS to Comic Book Mythology in 2022 the Middle East has had 
    an unprecedented surge in new infrastructure and cooperation among the up and coming generations....never before has there been such
    unity and harmony among the people of this region where some of earliest and advanced cultures flourished 6 - 8 thousand years ago...

    More excitement is building as researchers are discovering more and more amazing artifacts and information on these amazing ancient 
    civilizations...

    As the older generations DIE off and take their horrifically OBSOLETE and OPPRESSIVE Comic Book GODS and DOGMA
    to the grave with them... a revitalization of the region has occurred in place of the CONFLICT - FEAR - VIOLENCE....which
    dominated the region for 5000 years...

    These are truly EPIC TIMES as all of HUMANITY has trashed the Abrahamic GOD construct for POWER and CONTROL of the MINDS 
    and LIVES of BILLIONS....now that humanity is FREE from the parasite VAMPIRE bondage founded by the defunct Roman Catholic Church
    and the MUSLIM Allah God garbage....it's like a perpetual spring time all over the planet...

    Live WELL - LONG and PROSPER is the new MANTRA of humanity....a true breath of fresh air now that the HELL on EARTH Abrahamic
    JEW - JESUS - ALLAH GOD are meaningless Mythology and Comic Books for entertainment only...

  • Mopac
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    --> @Stronn
    We Orthodox do not have a divine command theory.

    What we do know is that God is Good, and to love God is to love goodness. As human beings are made as bearers of God's image, to love them is also like loving God.


    God is Good.

  • WisdomofAges
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    --> @Mopac
    The Abrahamic GODS are Comic Book Mythology for entertainment...thankfully the NEW GENERATIONS see clearly the SICKNESS and 
    DISEASE perpetuated by the CHURCH and MOSQUE CULTS...

    FREE from the parasite VAMPIRES that want to suck the life blood and energy from their existence...the youth of the world are INVIGORATED
    and INSPIRED to be curious OPEN MINDED explorers ..unlike their Parents and earlier generations who were MURDERED - TORTURED -
    RAPED (especially young boys) - BEATEN - OPPRESSED both mentally - physically - economically...TRULY CATASTROPHIC......all in the
    name of Comic Book character GODS...and true PSYCHOPATH LIFE MOLESTERS who themselves played GOD....disgusting

    while the stale and PATHETICALLY OBSOLETE and OPPRESSIVE Church and Mosque CULTS desperately struggle to hold on to what little
    they have left....soon enough these PARASITE Abrahamic JESUS and ALLAH God preaching VAMPIRES themselves will VANISH from EARTH
    FOREVER....and HUMANITY will THRIVE like never before in its existence....
  • disgusted
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    --> @Mopac
    As human beings are made as bearers of God's image,
    Who says?