A Truly Baffling Moment In the Garden

Author: Stephen ,

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  • Stephen
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    If God and Jesus are the same,  as many  Christians will have us believe, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus (god) beg himself (god) in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself ( god) from having to be crucified?

    Matthew 26:39

    And further, why would Jesus (god) ask himself why he (god) has forsaken himself (god) by allowing himself (god) to be crucified?

    Matthew 27:46 

    This is truly a awkward subject for many Christians to discuss considering that it gives the impression that if God & Jesus are one and the same as they believe, then it shows real signs of schizophrenia at worse and  a delusional disorder at least.


  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    They are exactly the same but only different. 

    I imagine it started god was god and jesus was the human god like all the main ones.
    Now its all about getting a group up and running. 
    So by Johnny making up the new meanings for the Matty scriptures and claiming Jesus to be god would be a easy way to get a group started. 
    The Splinter, diddly dee.
    Getting a group going from nothing takes to much.
    But simply change a few things in a already created group, And you got yourself a group in next to no time.
    Now you got ten blokes working your farm. 
    A strict for profit business. 


     


  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Deb-8-a-bull
    Getting a group going from nothing takes to much.
    But simply change a few things in a already created group, And you got yourself a group in next to no time.
    Now you got ten blokes working your farm. 
    A strict for profit business. 
    Well stated.

  • Mopac
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    In the trinity of Father, Son, Holy Spirit, we have Jesus the son.


    In that 1 person, there is united 2 natures, the fully divine, and the fully human. That being the case, Jesus felt everything it meant to be a man. That God may fill all things and all righteousness be fulfilled.





    On the cross, Jesus was singing this psalm to reveal its fulfillment...


    "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
    my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
    But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
    Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
    They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
    But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
    All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
    He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
    But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
    I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
    Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
    Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
    They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
    I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
    My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
    For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
    I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
    They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
    But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
    Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
    Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
    I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
    Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
    For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
    My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
    The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
    All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
    For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
    All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
    A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
    They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this."








  • RoderickSpode
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    --> @Stephen
    If God and Jesus are the same,  as many  Christians will have us believe, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus (god) beg himself (god) in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself ( god) from having to be crucified?

    Matthew 26:39

    And further, why would Jesus (god) ask himself why he (god) has forsaken himself (god) by allowing himself (god) to be crucified?

    Matthew 27:46 

    This is truly a awkward subject for many Christians to discuss considering that it gives the impression that if God & Jesus are one and the same as they believe, then it shows real signs of schizophrenia at worse and  a delusional disorder at least.
    This isn't even remotely awkward.

    I guess the problem you're having here is the idea of 2 individuals being one and the same, yet having opposing thoughts. (God demands the person representing the Son in the trinity sacrifice his life, and the Son experiencing apprehension).

    Suppose we now had the ability to travel back in time, and you volunteer to be the first to go. You end up going back to the year you were 5 years old. You even meet your 5 year old self. Now you've got 2 of you, separately, yet still the same person. Awkward enough?

    Are you and your 5 year old self like-minded? No. At least not completely. You're looking at your immature self who may still be afraid of ghosts.

    Now let's say your 5 year old self doesn't for some reason accept you. Maybe afraid of you. You wonder why your own 5 year old self is rejecting you. Are you now schizophrenic under this circumstance?









  • Stephen
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    --> @RoderickSpode
    It is enough that we are asked to believe in the father, son and ghost i.e.  three parts of one god but all god;  and now you are saying that for us to understand this story that we have to time travel hypothetically back to our infancy as if this goes anywhere to explaining how it was that god was to be able to ask himself to spare himself and question himself as to why he forsaken himself. This, was not  a 5 year old infant child, it was an adult addressing another adult. jesu was  said to have been 31 - 32 when he died; that is to say he was a man. And we can safely assume the person he was addressing (his "father") was also a man

    Jesus was scared witless and terrified when he was on his knees begging his "father" to spare him the barbaric ordeal of crucifixion that he was to face and endure. And his "father" simply  ignored his plea totally, not even a  ' there, there my son '.  So we have a three part god ignoring other parts of himself. Which then begs the question why did jesus even bother asking to be spared and asking why he had been forsaken when he must have known his pleas and begging were going to fall on deaf ears?

    Do you not realise how absolutely ridiculous that actually sounds? 

    You explanation is nonsense and you must do better.
  • RoderickSpode
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    --> @Stephen
    It is enough that we are asked to believe in the father, son and ghost i.e.  three parts of one god but all god;  and now you are saying that for us to understand this story that we have to time travel hypothetically back to our infancy as if this goes anywhere to explaining how it was that god was to be able to ask himself to spare himself and question himself as to why he forsaken himself. This, was not  a 5 year old infant child, it was an adult addressing another adult. jesu was  said to have been 31 - 32 when he died; that is to say he was a man. And we can safely assume the person he was addressing (his "father") was also a man

    Jesus was scared witless and terrified when he was on his knees begging his "father" to spare him the barbaric ordeal of crucifixion that he was to face and endure. And his "father" simply  ignored his plea totally, not even a  ' there, there my son '.  So we have a three part god ignoring other parts of himself. Which then begs the question why did jesus even bother asking to be spared and asking why he had been forsaken when he must have known his pleas and begging were going to fall on deaf ears?

    Do you not realise how absolutely ridiculous that actually sounds? 

    You explanation is nonsense and you must do better.
    Wrong. I did not say one has to travel back specifically in time to when they were an infant. I only used the infant example in relation to what I think is the average age of members on this forum. I of course don't know how old you are, but we can adjust the scenario to an 80 year old traveling back in
    time to when he was 30. An 80 year old man will usually change some of his views from when he was a younger adult.

    And I'm just going by what you said. Your issue seemed to be the idea of one personality embodying more than one form. And I pointed out that if a human goes back in time to when they were younger, there would be a similar situation except 2 forms instead of 3. (Keep in mind, we'd be talking about the creator of the universe, so 3 in one instead of 2 in one shouldn't pose too much of a threat.)

    Then you went on to claim that God and Christ appear schizophrenic because they weren't initially in absolute agreement about Christ's sacrifice. I pointed out that in the time travel scenario, someone who goes back in time to when they were younger probably wouldn't be in full agreement on everything. And then I flat out asked you whether or not the 2-in-1 party in question is schizophrenic. Is that not a valid question to ask you?

    You also suggested God didn't bother to comfort Jesus at that time which is highly inaccurate. God sent a ministering angel to comfort him just as he did during the temptation in the wilderness. But of course you can always raise the bar by saying "God didn't comfort him directly (himself)", or something along those lines.

    How silly it sounds to you is really irrelevant. As I indicated, all you'll do is keep raising the bar in supposedly pacifying your inquiry.





  • Stephen
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    --> @RoderickSpode
    I did not say one has to travel back specifically in time to when they were an infant.

    Yes you did, Here

    Suppose we now had the ability to travel back in time, and you volunteer to be the first to go. You end up going back to the year you were 5 years
    old. 



    Then you went on to claim that God and Christ appear schizophrenic because they weren't initially in absolute agreement about Christ's sacrifice.


    No. This is what I actaully  said;


    "If God & Jesus are one and the same as they [chrsitians] believe, then it shows real signs of schizophrenia at worse and  a delusional disorder at least" one jesus' part.

    I  mention nowhere of god/Jesus being in disagreement or disagreement I suggest if it is as christians believe then Jesus had some kind of delusional disorder. 

    And nothing you have said so far goes anywhere near explaining this sticky question.

     Luke 22:42
    Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

    So Jesus hadn't time travelled either.  He was still there in the garden and speaking to someone he called his father who didn't answer him, in the garden. This sounds like someone with a delusional disorder. Which coincidentally  is exactly  what is family believed when they had heard of what he was doing and saying.

    Mark 3:21

    "When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

    It appears to me that you are making things up as you go along. 


  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    I think it is pretty obvious from the scripture in question that there is in fact no disagreement.

    And certainly, Jesus willingly went to the cross, no one took his life, he gave it.







  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    And certainly, Jesus willingly went to the cross, no one took his life, he gave it.

    Don't be so silly. Jesus was in great distress at the thought of dying while trying to pull off this great deception.. He didn't go to the cross "willingly".  It is, as you put it,  pretty obvious from the scripture that he was ordered to do what he did by his "father" against his will.  

    LOOK>>>>  Luke 22:42  Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, ........but thine, be done.


    Of all the bibles that are written they are all in  agreement those words "NOT MY WILL" are the words spoken by the Christ to his "father".

    So in typical fashion we are not out of the starting gate and we have you  already trying to re write what the bible says and insert something that isn't there.This is deceit and you do your case or your faith, no favours at all. 

  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    I am telling you what the church teaches, and it is our book to interpret, not yours. Jesus willingly died on the cross. It was Jesus' will to do the will of the father. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Yet the flesh of Jesus was still in full submission to that divine will.

    And so, like us, Christ was subject to temptation and human frailty. Yet, Christ did not sin. And so we too can take up our crosses, deny ourselves, and obtain theosis in Christ.


  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac

     it is our book to interpret, not yours. Jesus willingly died on the cross. It was Jesus' will to do the will of the father. 


    Not according to YOUR book he didn't.  LOOK>>>>  Luke 22:42  Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, ........but thine, be done.

    Stop crying and weeping and wailing. It's there for all to see, atheist and theist alike. He didn't not go to the cross "willingly".

    Yet, Christ did not sin.

    Then this begs another question, doesn't it? Why did Jesus/ god need to be cleansed of his "sins" and what "sins" did he commit?

    You have heard of the saying about -  holes and digging,haven't you?
  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    As I said, it is our book. It is not for you to interpret. If your interpretation doesn't match with what the church teaches, it is wrong.


    We wrote the book. It is a part of our Holy Tradition. We know what it means. End of story.

  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    As I said, it is our book. It is not for you to interpret. If your interpretation doesn't match with what the church teaches, it is wrong.

    We wrote the book. It is a part of our Holy Tradition. We know what it means.



    And is all you have managed to show is  yourself and your faith to be liars. You deny what is written in your book. The Christ clearly states that he was going against his own will, you just do not like it being highlighted and pointed out and questioned. To default continuously to  I am "interpreting it wrong" and you are interpreting it right is the weakest of arguments. 

    The scripture clearly states what the Christ said. You are now desperately trying to put words into the mouth of your god. You should be ashamed of yourself.

     it is our book to interpret, not yours. Jesus willingly died on the cross. It was Jesus' will to do the will of the father. 


    Not according to YOUR book he didn't.  LOOK>>>>  Luke 22:42  Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless
    NOT MY WILL ......but thine, be done.

    PROVE that I am interpreting it incorrectly.  For you to simply tell me that I am interpreting the verse incorrectly is simply not evidence or  is not proof of your claim; especially when the scripture is as clear as day.     I have the scripture as my proof, what do you have?  Just a big domineering mouth that admits hot air . "end of story".


  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    Just as the flesh might fight someone who really wants to exercise and get in better shape, so does the flesh of Jesus fight Him despite his will and the father's will being one.

    And that is what the church teaches, and the church certainly has the highest authority over these matters.

  • Mopac
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    The will of Jesus' flesh is always in submission to the divine will.
    To say that Jesus has 2 natures but only 1 will is the heresy of monothelitism.

    To say that Jesus has 1 nature is the heresy of monophysitism.

    1 God, 3 persons, consubstantial of 1 essence and undivided. 2 natures in the person of The Son. That is what the church teaches. It does matter.


  • PGA2.0
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    If God and Jesus are the same,  as many  Christians will have us believe, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus (god) beg himself (god) in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself ( god) from having to be crucified? 
    God being one in essence and unity is three in Persons. The Son took on humanity, thus having two natures in the one Person. To redeem humanity He lived the life we could not before God by becoming a human being. He was perfectly righteous and obedient as a human, thus He is our righteous standing before God. We have sinned, thus we bear guilt before God, but Jesus took our punishment (for those who believe) after living a perfectly righteous life. Thus, not only is God's righteousness met but also His wrath is judged by that one act done on behalf of the believer. 

    Thus, acting in His human capacity He identified with humanity, nevertheless, He gave way to the will of the Father so that all righteousness would be met and all judgment on behalf of believers accomplished, for there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)



    Matthew 26:39

    And further, why would Jesus (god) ask himself why he (god) has forsaken himself (god) by allowing himself (god) to be crucified?
    Because He was acting in His human capacity in order to accomplish all righteousness and pay the debt of sin that those who believe would have life in His name. 


    Matthew 27:46 

    This is truly a awkward subject for many Christians to discuss considering that it gives the impression that if God & Jesus are one and the same as they believe, then it shows real signs of schizophrenia at worse and  a delusional disorder at least.


    You confuse His laying aside His deity in order to fulfill what no other human could do.
  • RoderickSpode
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    --> @Stephen
    Yes you did, Here

    No, I most certainly did not state that one has to go back in time to when they were 5 years old. The age is irrelevant, but to avoid confusion I changed the scenario to an 80 year old man going back in time to when he was about 30. The only real point I was making here is that under this scenario, 2 separate people are one and the same.
  • RoderickSpode
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    --> @Stephen
    No. This is what I actaully  said;


    No. This is what I actaully  said;


    "If God & Jesus are one and the same as they [chrsitians] believe, then it shows real signs of schizophrenia at worse and  a delusional disorder at least" one jesus' part.








    The problem (if we have to call it a problem) is that it's not a sticky situation. You're claiming Jesus was schizophrenic and/or delusional because you're assuming he wasn't the Son of God. And you'd probably be right if he wasn't!

    If that's the case, you'd have to prove Jesus isn't the Son of God if you really want any Christian to buy into your claim.





  • Stephen
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    --> @RoderickSpode


    No, I most certainly did not state that one has to go back in time to when they were 5 years old.

     AMAZING!!!!!  So you not only deny what is actually written in the New Testament, you now deny what it is that you yourself have written!


    @RoderickSpode wrote at post 5 above:

    Suppose we now had the ability to travel back in time, and you volunteer to be the first to go. You end up going back to the year you were 5 years old. You even meet your 5 year old self. Now you've got 2 of you, separately, yet still the same person. Awkward enough?

    And I replied

    "and now you are saying that for us to understand this story that we have to time travel hypothetically back to our infancy  as if this goes anywhere to explaining how it was that god was to be able to ask himself to spare himself and question himself as to why he forsaken himself.". 

    So stop lying!!!.

    You're claiming Jesus was schizophrenic and/or delusional because you're assuming he wasn't the Son of God.
    No, You really need to take in what it is I have written. I was asking in the OP :


    Why would Jesus (god) ask himself why he (god) has forsaken himself (god) by allowing himself (god) to be crucified?



    If that's the case, you'd have to prove Jesus isn't the Son of God if you really want any Christian to buy into your claim. 

    That is a piss poor attempt at a strawman argument. 

    I have never made the claim that Jesus is the son of god. 
    It is for christians to prove that the Christ WAS the son of god. I don't have to prove a damn thing. So, get to it!!

  • Yassine
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    --> @Stephen
    If God and Jesus are the same,  as many  Christians will have us believe, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus (god) beg himself (god) in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself ( god) from having to be crucified? 

    Matthew 26:39

    And further, why would Jesus (god) ask himself why he (god) has forsaken himself (god) by allowing himself (god) to be crucified?

    Matthew 27:46 

    This is truly a awkward subject for many Christians to discuss considering that it gives the impression that if God & Jesus are one and the same as they believe, then it shows real signs of schizophrenia at worse and  a delusional disorder at least.

    - Stephen, you seem to share our beliefs, why not convert?

  • Stephen
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    --> @Yassine
    Stephen, you seem to share our beliefs,

    Nope 

    why not convert?
     & Nope
  • Harikrish
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    --> @Stephen
    Reply
    If God and Jesus are the same,  as many  Christians will have us believe, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus (god) beg himself (god) in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself ( god) from having to be crucified?

    Matthew 26:39

    And further, why would Jesus (god) ask himself why he (god) has forsaken himself (god) by allowing himself (god) to be crucified?

    Matthew 27:46

    This is truly a awkward subject for many Christians to discuss considering that it gives the impression that if God & Jesus are one and the same as they believe, then it shows real signs of schizophrenia at worse and  a delusional disorder at least.



    The bible tells us Jesus and his disciples were drinking heavily celebrating the festival of Passover, so it was simply an exchange between a drunk and a sober God. Jesus was seeking help from God to take away the cup he was drinking from.