Have You Counted Out God??

Author: EtrnlVw ,

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  • EtrnlVw
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    Have you counted out God as a source for the origins of our existence because of what you trust to be purely "natural" processes, AKA evolution?

    Evolutionists/Atheists what if what you thought to be a natural phenomenon was actually a conscious process manifested by a Creator?

    I'm looking for more than a "God is not needed" assertion (for this topic) because I will be positing that the actual processes are put into action by the Creator. I want to know if you think it's possible that the processes we observe in our universe through science could be compatible with Theism. If it's not possible, give me your best reason why.
    If it's possible, why have you counted it out? keeping in mind that there is no lack of evidence, rather a misinterpretation of the process. 
  • keithprosser
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    If it's possible, why have you counted it out?
    As you have ruled out 'not needed', another reason to rule out god is that nothing happens that is incompatile with the 'no god' hypothesis.   Prayers are not answered, good people suffer, bad people prosper in full accord with random chance. 

    There are things that happen that are beyond our understanding.  How a baby develops in a womb is a total mystery - e can't build an artificialwomb and make atrifical babies in it!  But the process of making a baby often goes wrong.  Hence it's not magical - it is merely complicated.


  • Polytheist-Witch
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    Actually my gods are clear no god created the universe. They may have a hand in their own but not ours. 
  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Not really. I consider myself to be intellectually honest and try to be intellectually consistent. With this in mind there has yet to be a good enough argument for God which is why I lean against it. So much time theists had to prove God's existence yet they failed. Atheism the rejection of God has been around for much less time. In that time they have found arguments for God to be fallacious or not even arguments for God in the first place. With that said I haven't counted out God more so waiting for a good enough argument for it. I think I won't be getting one ever but I can never know what the future brings. 
  • Goldtop
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    Have you counted out God as a source for the origins of our existence because of what you trust to be purely "natural" processes, AKA evolution?
    It's not about trusting the theory of evolution, it's about understanding the theory and how it explains our origins based on the vast amount of physical evidence. There is no evidence for gods creating humans.

    Evolutionists/Atheists what if what you thought to be a natural phenomenon was actually a conscious process manifested by a Creator?
    If there were evidence of such a Creator, but there is none. Evolution explains our origins along with the mountains of evidence to support it.

    I will be positing that the actual processes are put into action by the Creator.
    Please do.

    the processes we observe in our universe through science could be compatible with Theism
    Nope.

    If it's not possible, give me your best reason why.
    Theism is based on faith and magic, science is based on evidence and facts. Not compatible.

    If it's possible, why have you counted it out?
    The same reason every other religion/god is counted out, no evidence.

    keeping in mind that there is no lack of evidence, rather a misinterpretation of the process
    There is indeed a lack of evidence. Testimonials are not evidence to the existence of something.
  • disgusted
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    Evolutionists/Atheists what if what you thought to be a natural phenomenon was actually a conscious process manifested by a Creator?

    Which creator?
  • EtrnlVw
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    Evolutionists/Atheists what if what you thought to be a natural phenomenon was actually a conscious process manifested by a Creator?

    If it's possible, why have you counted it out? keeping in mind that there is no lack of evidence, rather a misinterpretation of the process.
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Polytheist-Witch
    If no God/Gods created the universe then what are they? God's are creators...otherwise they are in the same descriptions as those who are subjected to creation. 
  • Mopac
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    --> @TheRealNihilist
    My argument for God to you is that you don't know God.

    If you accepted the identity of God as being The Supreme and Ultimate Reality, the existence of God would be self evident.


    Many have a conception of God, and then they either believe in or deny the existence of that conception. The Ultimate Reality is not a conception. It is reality in the truest sense of the world.






  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @Mopac
    My argument for God to you is that you don't know God.
    You actually have no idea of what you are talking about. You don't know what God is that is the truth and I am sure you are in denial about that fact.
    If you accepted the identity of God as being The Supreme and Ultimate Reality, the existence of God would be self evident.
    It is like saying if you just liked apples you would just like it. I failed to see how you even know what God is to even preach to me about it.
    Many have a conception of God, and then they either believe in or deny the existence of that conception. The Ultimate Reality is not a conception. It is reality in the truest sense of the world.
    Mumbo Jumbo coming from a person who doesn't what he is talking about. Not surprising since I have seen you say things like this before.

    All in all you don't know what you are talking about and i hope you get the help you deserve. You are an example of what theism does to people. It makes them think they know something when they actually don't. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @TheRealNihilist
    Not really. I consider myself to be intellectually honest and try to be intellectually consistent.
    I'm only responding to you once, because you seem to have strong biases and that is utterly annoying and impossible to argue with in any intellectual sense. Someone who is intellectually honest is someone who is respectful and flexible. I consider you to be the opposite of intellectual honesty because of your inability to be flexible and your rigid mindset. If you aren't open-minded then you are basically a waste of time. To be nice about it.
    With this in mind there has yet to be a good enough argument for God which is why I lean against it.
    This is where your ignorance shines so bright, the argument for God is as good as any and always will be, perhaps much more applicable and plausible than any materialistic approach. The reason you can't see that is somewhat disappointing but not surprising. It's actually the norm, are you content with that?
    So much time theists had to prove God's existence yet they failed.
    Where did they fail when you consider the nature of God and how long religion has been available lol?? the funny part is, is that the proof of God's existence has been shown many times over through spirituality yet you sit like a dum dum waiting for some ignorant scientists to give you answers when it's already been made known. You just think you are somehow above the evidence. The evidence however slaps you in the face cold. Ever thought about that?
    Atheism the rejection of God has been around for much less time. In that time they have found arguments for God to be fallacious or not even arguments for God in the first place.
    Give me a good example of that atheist. All I hear are strawmen and dishonest assumptions.
    With that said I haven't counted out God more so waiting for a good enough argument for it. I think I won't be getting one ever but I can never know what the future brings.
    So in other words you have counted out God, because the arguments are in favor of the nature of God presented as evidence. So much so it's almost impossible to ignore the evidence unless you are a biased troll. There's more testimonial evidence for the paranormal and God than for any other topic.

  • Mopac
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    --> @TheRealNihilist
    I believe I better know what I am talking about than you know.

    The Ultimate Reality exists,  and that is the only God I recognize.

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @keithprosser
    As you have ruled out 'not needed', another reason to rule out god is that nothing happens that is incompatile with the 'no god' hypothesis.
    Not true and if you were being honest you would consider spirituality and evidence. Everything happens that is incompatible with a "no God" hypothesis, what is wrong with you people lol?
    Prayers are not answered, good people suffer, bad people prosper in full accord with random chance. 
    Ever heard of Karma and reap what we sow? that means prayers will be inconsistent and people will suffer because people are inconsistent and people make others suffer. Where is your real objection?? Karma reaches beyond a single lifetime, so sometimes we won't have the insight to see what is actually the case.
    There are things that happen that are beyond our understanding.  How a baby develops in a womb is a total mystery
    Not really. I can explain that fully through spirituality.
     - e can't build an artificialwomb and make atrifical babies in it!  But the process of making a baby often goes wrong.  Hence it's not magical - it is merely complicated.
    This is a cause and effect universe, meaning that perfection is not at the door. If there is a process that goes wrong it's because there was first a cause.

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Mopac
    The Ultimate Reality exists,  and that is the only God I recognize.

    How many times have you to be told that an "Ultimate Reality" is reality whatever it is. You have to conjecture how this "Ultimate Reality" equals God. I've told you how to do this but you seem to ignore the nature of God and are content with making assertions instead of explanations. This may work for your crippled church but not for those who are seeking truth no matter who it is. Ultimate reality doesn't mean squat without an Ultimate explanation/argument. Only the nature of God can answer this dilemma, one must first recognize the true nature of God and the soul to ever harness this equation. Ultimate Reality is that which is aware and conscious of all things, it's the very nature of God and the soul they intertwine and are connected. You are either unable to articulate the Ultimate Reality because of your ignorance and poor education or you are choosing to ignore the nature of God, in which case you are only confusing yourself and others. 

  • Polytheist-Witch
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    They did not create the universe.  My gods don't consider me lower than them either.There is something for us to learn from them and vise versa.
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Polytheist-Witch
    They did not create the universe. 

    Then they are not qualified to be a God. They are just beings. 

    My gods don't consider me lower than them either.

    Doubtful. This is a low level part of creation lol, you are not on God status compared to them. 

    There is something for us to learn from them and vise versa.

    Of course, but their level of knowledge far exceeds humans that should be obvious. The only thing we could offer are new experiences and that pertains to the Creator Itself and the investment God has in all of this. 
  • n8nrgmi
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    --> @EtrnlVw

    im asking about a subject completely different than this thread, but i see you're posting and i wanted to ask. what are your views regarding Jesus and the atonement? what significance do you put on Jesus' death? how do you view the penal substitution model? 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Polytheist-Witch
    To make things more simplistic, you are inhabiting a world in which a God created. God doesn't only inhabit naturally created worlds lol (as they would be no different than humans or animals) they are constructed obviously. Claiming Gods without a Creator is pretty silly. This is a created universe. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @n8nrgmi
    im asking about a subject completely different than this thread, but i see you're posting and i wanted to ask. what are your views regarding Jesus and the atonement?
    Jesus was and is a spiritual Master, the "atonement" is nothing more than an individual abiding in spiritual principles. Jesus actually never said he died for all sins, He said He had the power to forgive sins. This is true, because when you operate in love and forgiveness you get love and forgiveness, when you love others you get love, when you forgive others then you are forgiven. Jesus came to uplift the consciousness of mankind and spirituality and did just that. Unfortunately it's also become a circus, and of course duality is to blame for that. Wherever you find light at it's most extreme you also have darkness at its most extreme. So when examining someone like Jesus there's going to be a mixture of truth and falsity.
    what significance do you put on Jesus' death? how do you view the penal substitution model?
    Jesus was definitely an enlightened being, this should be pretty obvious. The significance I put on His death is pretty high because he changed the face of religion and how people relate to God and knew he would be punished for that. But I don't really see it the same as some religious institution would because Jesus was for empowering the individual not religious power and control. I recognize the light of God on this Earth and the negative forces to bring that down. Anytime you have the light of God you will see the opposite in effect.

    Having said all of that I'm an Omnist in regards to religion and spirituality with a Christian background. I fell in love with the Gospels at a young age and have only ever wanted to pursue God and all that it entails. I've come to the realization that religions are limited in their conceptions and understanding of the eternal Creator.

  • Mopac
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    The Ultimate Reality is God.

    Yes, reality as it truly is.

    Most people when they think of God have a conception of God in their heads. They either reject or embrace this conception. The Ultimate Reality is not a conception. 

    The essence of God is The Ultimate Reality. If you understand what that means, you will also understand why we say the essence of God is unknowable.

    But we know how God is, and that is through The Trinity. And it is because you don't have The Trinity that what you call God is in fact a conception of God. 


    Our "crippled" church is still the second largest communion of those who call themselves Christians in the world, even after several state sanctioned genocides managed to dwindle our numbers by some 50 million in the last century.

    So just remember, we are not only bigger than the methodists, the presbytarians, the baptists, etc... but our church is actually the very Church that descends from Jesus Christ and his apostles. The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church. A church with a rich experience and a depth that you evidently are wholly unaware of.










  • Mopac
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    Jesus was definitely an enlightened being
    See, I can already tell that your Christology is not in line with what the church believes and teaches.

    That could be a good discussion if you are interested.

  • secularmerlin
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    I don't discount anything but until we have some concrete evidence (as opposed to testimonial evidence) we cannot know what processes were involved in creating the universe if "creating" is the right word. If you just want to give your best guess you certainly may but guessing is all we can do.
  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    I'm only responding to you once, because you seem to have strong biases and that is utterly annoying and impossible to argue with in any intellectual sense. 
    Your a hypocrite. Asked him for evidence for spirituality could not give it then implies I am lying about what I think I am. Problem here is that what I am asking is not difficult for someone to prove gravity is real but guess you can't do that for spirituality. Yes it is utterly and impossible to argue with someone with strong biases. I really understand how you feel more than you even know. 
    This is where your ignorance shines so bright, the argument for God is as good as any and always will be, perhaps much more applicable and plausible than any materialistic approach. The reason you can't see that is somewhat disappointing but not surprising. It's actually the norm, are you content with that?
    Just like your argument for spirituality. Non-existent. Shame really thought I was going to read an actual argument for God. Guess having irrational beliefs really does lead a person susceptible to other irrational beliefs.  
    Where did they fail when you consider the nature of God and how long religion has been available lol?? the funny part is, is that the proof of God's existence has been shown many times over through spirituality yet you sit like a dum dum waiting for some ignorant scientists to give you answers when it's already been made known. You just think you are somehow above the evidence. The evidence however slaps you in the face cold. Ever thought about that?
    Guess you are using a butchered form of evidence where just because you feel something is right therefore it must be the case. Spirituality and God have yet to be consistent with any metric apart from the metric of non-existence. Praying doesn't work. No link between some-kind of immaterial object like God or spirituality in the material world. Guess people are going to stick to their irrational beleifs and lie to themselves about "evidence" as if they know the meaning of it.
    Give me a good example of that atheist. All I hear are strawmen and dishonest assumptions.
    I'll give it as an individual not some sort of representatives to all atheists.
    1)KCA concludes by saying there is a cause for the universe. Nothing in the argument that can provide an argument for God. So basically they would need an additional argument for God's existence.
    2)Moral argument falls flat when there is no objective morality or if you don't believe that then there is no way you a theist can prove it. 
    3)Creatio ex nihilo has never occured.
    4)Cause and effect is not an argument for God because God would also require cause. If not then the person is committing a special pleading fallacy.

    Here have shown how 4 arguments are false. Not really too much detail but I don't think you care because of your biases and how little you care about rationality when you have irrational beliefs about spirituality. 
    It is dishonest for you to go for fringe elements of a group and not target people who make good arguments. The people who make good arguments against God would not be straw-manning. I could tell you who they are but I am capable of making those arguments so I don't see the point of giving someone that comes to mind.
    So in other words you have counted out God, because the arguments are in favor of the nature of God presented as evidence. So much so it's almost impossible to ignore the evidence unless you are a biased troll. There's more testimonial evidence for the paranormal and God than for any other topic.
    "testimonial" evidence. Now I understand how you got to where you are due to my encounter with you with spirituality but guess I forgot that irrational beliefs leaves people susceptible to other irrational beliefs. I could have guessed that because theists are not really original when it comes to butchering what evidence is. I think you are completely irrational. To the point where you actually think I am a "biased troll" and thinking "testimonial" evidence is somehow good evidence. It is a shame how indoctrination made you irrational or maybe you are just st*pid. Talking to you would be more fruitful if you did can make a substantial argument but as this has shown. You have shown two times where you are unable to make a rational argument.
  • Outplayz
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    You know me... i've counted out many gods but also believe they all exist lol, but i have not counted out all of this being a manifestation of some kind of infinite consciousness type platform. I think that is what you're calling god... so, haven't quite counted it out. There are way too many logic arguments for it. I want to get into it... but, i've been resting from this site. Got into Muay Thai training again so i'm always spent by the time i'm home. I personally like how it fixes the infinite regress paradox... that's my favorite mind bend of the source platform. Keep going, i do enjoy reading these threads bc i know it's not going to be about the Bible... sick of those threads :/ 
  • disgusted
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    @ET
    If no God/Gods created the universe then what are they? God's are creators...otherwise they are in the same descriptions as those who are subjected to creation. 
    Gods are strictly the creation of man. Get over it, you're gonna die ain't no more.