The Abrahamic fallacy of saying that Lucifer became Satan.

Author: RationalMadman ,

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  • RationalMadman
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    I will like for the experts of the Abrahamic Trilogy to discuss with me why it's likely that Satan is Lucifer.

    I would like us to map out the pathing from OT to NT and motive for God to have lied or somehow imperfectly have portrayed his message in OT for there to need to be a NT and later Qur'an.

    In my opinion, the logical explanation is that it's Lucifer who became Jesus and that was what he was smited and sent down to become. "Down to" where? Not Hell, that's not even mentioned in the OT ever. Instead, he was sent down to the realm of mortals, as Jesus. Blatantly. Read the entire NT, the storyline doesn't add up at all if Lucifer is the one who became Satan. Why are Jesus and his disciples so mentally incapacitated that they can't refer to Lucifer by his actual name even once? It's because they aren't talking about Lucifer, they are talking about the OT God. Read every single reference to the Devil, AKA Satan. The Devil (the enemy of Jesus, not God) is described again and again as being as ancient as God, from the beginning and the only entity that can ever compete with God and corrupt you in the way God can bless you. If you read other verses from both Testaments it's very blatant that God is the only being as ancient as 'himself' and that 'he' is very clearly the only entity capable of corrupting you in spite of what he could and would bless you with otherwise.

    It would not be viable, at all, for a being of limited intellect, power and longevity to keep coming back just as strong to corrupt and even out-persuade God in situations where the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God is somehow defeated by the smarter, smoother-talking Devil. That is totally and utterly ridiculous to suggest unless the Devil is simply a personality that God takes at times and is there to test how much faith you have in his original personality.


  • Mopac
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    You aren't going to get a good answer because nobody believes what you are talking about except you.


    That is one of the distinguishing characteristics of neognosticism and even its ancient precedent. You will not find any who agree with each other.

    If your religious education comes from YouTube, you will likely have neognostic tendencies.


    My suggestion to you would be to forget everything you think you know, and go to the legitimate priesthood of The Orthodox Church to help you in your education.

  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Mopac
    You aren't going to get a good answer because nobody believes what you are talking about except you.
    You don't have to believe it. Tell me why you believe in the alternate theory.

    That is one of the distinguishing characteristics of neognosticism and even its ancient precedent. You will not find any who agree with each other.
    This has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand. Even if every single poster in this thread disagrees with each other, we still can have discourse on the matter.

    If your religious education comes from YouTube, you will likely have neognostic tendencies.
    I have never seen anyone on YT who believes in the full theory that I have on this matter. I have come across Jews and atheists who agree that Lucifer isn't Satan but I haven't seen any who explore or give suggestions towards the rest of what I'm saying. I am sure I am not the only one, it's just that the rest are very introverted thinkers who keep to themselves (even I am IRL, so it's a realistic thing to presume).

    My suggestion to you would be to forget everything you think you know, and go to the legitimate priesthood of The Orthodox Church to help you in your education.
    I genuinely would do this, if I was willing to trust you with my real identity and meet up... I'm just not that trusting of you. I genuinely would meet and chat with them, though. If they make an account here and PM me, I'm willing to chat on an IM means of communication if need be.
  • Mopac
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    Don't be scared. Go into an Orthodox Church and talk with the priest. The ones who have been at it for a while have probably heard everything. You don't have to meet me at all. You can't expect the priest to come to you here, it just doesn't work like that. I'm sure you can get one to meet with you for coffee, tea, or lunch.


    But still, better for you to forget everything you think you know, because it will get in the way. It is bad theology. It is certainly an expression of neognosticism. And that is the point. You aren't going to find anyone who has the same full theory, because neognosticism at the core is faith in what is falsely called knowledge. One's own understanding.

  • RationalMadman
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    But still, better for you to forget everything you think you know, because it will get in the way. It is bad theology.
    I understand what you are trying to ask me to do, I did it. I started from scratch and thought things out. I am a flat-earther who believes in many conspiracy theories but also completely disregards others. I find it fascinating that someone says to stop being a sheep and to forget what I think I know and then leads on to say I should let an Orthodox Priest brainwash me. 

    I am fully willing to have a lunch with a Priest, Imam whatever. I am even the type of motherfucker to have tea with someone others tell me to back away from, asylum patient or long-term prisoner etc. I have a way about me that has grown with age, I have a way that in person I make people feel a need to not hurt me. I cannot describe it in words, it is some supernatural power that makes very dangerous people not want to bash my brains in. I mean I can explain it now, but I had this power from a very, very young age and it's something I'd have complete faith in, even in a room with a really sick and dangerous individual. I have a way of comprehending their insane world and making them feel understood and cared for, even just by my face and body language.

    I would speak to anyone, have lunch with them especially someone who I think is completely wrong if they are actually willing to talk with me about it and not stray to 'agree to disagree' as soon as they can. I can agree to disagree with anyone, it's boring and easy and I do it all the time. I want to stop agreeing to disagree and instead agree that the truth is something to attain, whether I'm right, you are right or we're both wrong. We can't both be right and that's a beautiful thing. If we both could be right about opposing views on something, the world would be so brutally insane that I'd cry. I have grown to accept that most want to agree to disagree and that the others tend to be too hostile to converse with and I just gotta play along with their delusions when talking with them. I love meeting the third type; those whom genuinely open my mind. Funnily enough, one of those third types in my life was one of my biggest online foes; Airmax1227 from DDO. He opened my mind a lot in private chats and stuff.
  • Mopac
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    I could definitely go a step further with you than agree to disagree.



    But of course, the nature of this condition is self perpetuating until the one who is afflicted recognizes that they have it and wishes to be rid of it.


    I would happily have private conversations with you if I wasn't blocked by you. 

  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Mopac
    I unblocked you but we both know what's going to happen.

    "At the core of this simulation is an ultimate reality and that reality is the God of the Bible."

    "Erm... Okay, let's say there's an ultimate reality why is it the Christian God?"

    "Don't ask that, you need to be humble and escape your Prelest! See an Orthodox Priest and they will guide you."

    "Aight man, I'll go see one since you can't help me."
  • Mopac
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    --> @RationalMadman
    Obviously when it comes to Christianity, I don't respect anything other than The Orthodox position, because it isn't even really Christian if it isn't Orthodox.

    I would suggest you avoid making wild theories about Christianity if you don't want to hear "That is not what the church teaches".

  • Melcharaz
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    --> @RationalMadman
    lets look at things in terms of realism for a moment.  Most people will not tend to look into things they are not intrigued in.  Most people will not spend their time on faiths they likely don't believe unless its to reinforce or clarify their own faith.  

    Now, if you are asking when did lucifer become known as satan? thats one question, to assert lucifer or satan as part of the person hood of God is not a wide spread blashemy of scripture, but it is often used in conjunction with people who are satanists to help elevate the idea of Lucifer as being a free agent apart from god and just in general mess with the idea that not everything has to do what God says or else. 

    Many people who disagree with a particular faith often ridicule or denounce it.  Sometimes even conflating or strawmanning the core doctrines.  Which points to you not agreeing with the bible in particular.
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Melcharaz
    So, I am mocking the Bible because I disagree with it. Then, following that I am conflating and strawmanning it? Surely the latter came first, at least in my own mind yeah?

    Let's rewind what you're saying entirely to before I disagreed with it. Why should I agree with it?
  • Melcharaz
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    --> @RationalMadman
    why should you agree with what?
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Melcharaz
    The Bible.
  • Melcharaz
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    you are asking me why you should believe in god's word?  The only reason i could see anyone believing in the word is that it is true and that God is as it says he is and has revealed himself to that person.
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Melcharaz
    Why isn't God a she? Why is it the God of the Bible?
  • Melcharaz
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    why are you asking me? ask God. im not god.
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Melcharaz
    I did. She told me quite a different tale to you.
  • Melcharaz
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    okay
  • Dr.Franklin
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    It's not mentioned in the OT because that's not what the OT is, the first verse of John tells what was before Time, so the Gospel was supposed to explain what was before time including the expulsion of Lucifer

    John 1:1-In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Clearly the Gospel was to explain was was before time.