"Drop the Moderate" keithprosser link PT1

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  • Stephen
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    I listened to your link. i hope you have the courtesy to listen to mine


     
    This first thing I notice here is that Muslims and -  people like me - just do not understand what “moderate Islam” is “or what a moderate Muslim is”?  This is why I have asked you repeatedly to explain both these terms and you have simply swerved on the matter but it didn’t stop you and politicians and apologists using the term and the reason for that is explained in part 2 below. It didn’t even stop you attempting to contradict Muslim President Erdogan, did it? Need I go on?

    (2)
    No evidence“mixing”.
    This clearly indicates intolerance and no intention of integrating, just as I have been saying to you. Need I go on?

    (3)
    This Question to Sadiq Khan was interesting;
    “do you accept that broad swath of Muslim OPINION is  liberal, tolerant and progressive”?
    Khan’s Response was to simply lie and say:  
    “That’s’ my experience and they [Muslims] do not have those views”.
     (1) It contradicts the opening statements at the beginning of this video.  (2) Listen To what this so called “moderate” Muslim Mayor has to say about “moderate Muslims”.
    Sadiq Khan Calls Moderate Muslims "Uncle Toms".https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPqHMcNUuP0 Need I go on?

     
    Khan then goes on to tell more lies about not seeing the hijab niqab and burqa at all in Pakistan. Making out that British born Muslim women are ‘choosing’ to wear this oppressive garment. And there is no evidence to date that a fatwa was ever put out on Khan either. Why no arrests for inciting murder, or violence? We only have his word for this and it is pretty well documented that he has links to extremists. So anything Kahn has to say on the subject of “moderate Islam or moderate Muslims” is absolutely worthless. IMO.

    The video then gets more real opinions from some truthful and honest Muslims about homosexuals& friends that are not Muslim who wouldn't be allowed into a muslim household etc etc and everything they say supports MY fkn argument that Muslims for the most part are intolerant and I am only 4.5 minutes into this video. Do I need to go one?
     
    (4)
    BBC survey of “ a 1000 British Muslims” concerning free speech and the attack of Charlie Hebdo.
     Showed that 27% had sympathy for the“motivations” for the attack, while a 45% saying that “clerics preaching violence against the west as being in touch with mainstream Muslim opinion”. I agree with Nazoor “That’s pretty scary”. But he is being irrational isn’t he Keith?
    Anyway, no fkn surprises there then. Need I go on?

    (5)
    We then hear  more from Khan who goes into deep denial, a bit like you do Keith when facts and figures are presented. Khan doesn’t accept that they are less integrated which by now you are fully aware that this is complete bullshit.
     
    Interesting That Manzoor comes from Luton. In 1982 Luton had only one mosque, it now has over 30 (that is  1 new mosque a year)and is known as “the jihadi capital of England” or as Manzoor puts it “a breeding ground for terrorism”. Is it any wonder that there was push back from the indigenous population?
     
    Cont...

  • Stephen
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    "Drop the Moderate" keithprosser link PT2


    Then we are back to tolerance and homosexuals  where on his return he found  nothing had change in the way of either.
    And of course he tells us, the word “moderate is not easily accepted by many Muslims”.Don’t ask me to define “many”. Those were Manzoor’s words not mine.
     And he reiterates “ hardly anyone we spoke to was comfortable with it”.
    Need I go on? 
     
    (6)
    Interesting That the woman Ahmed who has studied the history of the term “moderate muslims”says ;
    It is difficult term, and it is NOT a term that is accepted by the vast majority of Muslims that I know of”. She obviously doesn’t know as many as you then eh keith. And even the presenter Sarfraz Manzoor finds it “offensive”. And Christians do get called “extreme”.  Interesting to note that this supports my opinion that these terms are pushed by the west via its government, politicians and bymedia doing the bidding of the Governments and politicians. This simply goes hand in hand with their narrative that “Islam is a religion of peace”.
    So again, no surprises there and something I have been trying to get across to you for along time. Need I go on?

    (9)
    I liked it when he said he believe it “could mean to be reasonable and civil” as opposed to the Muslim behind him burning a Salman Rushdie novel who wasn’t being either.

    But like I Have also pointed out to you, the Muslims in this video below are not “moderate” and they are not being“reasonable or civil”, are they.
    "Moderate"Muslims try to defend the death penalty for apostasy, adultery, homosexuality,
     
     
    Video Recorded Inside a Muslim Faith School in the UK
     
     
    (10)
    “The Tables are divided, and there is a mahram to stop the brothers from committing acts of sexual desires”.
    These are clearly Muslims that cannot control themselves in the presence of women.Now why do you think that is Keith? Keeping in mind these are supposed to be British born 3rd or 4th generation Muslims that Manzoor interviewing and believes it to be a “sin” to shake a woman’s hand. He was 21 years old and couldn’t be trusted to behave proper in the presence of females.
     
    (11)  The young women of the Islamic Society.
     
    “But  what does it mean to be a “moderate Muslim”?
     “To be A PART of society and follow British Values”, replies a woman with common sense.
    Another goes on to say, “whatever country your in, you have to follow their laws”. 
     
    In Contrast, she talks of Muhammad being “mocked and ridiculed” but he reacted with “compassion”. All true... to begin with but it didn’t last long. He turned to being a violent and vile barbaric dictator who lopped off the heads of many hundreds of people ...... simply for not being Muslim. " I have become victorious through terror"
    See >>> Muḥammadibn Isḥāq ibn Yasār ibn Khiyār  Muslimhistorian and hagiographer. biography of the Islamic prophet Muhammad
     
     
    19 minutes onwards it is simply opinion of Muslim concerning all the above including an opinion from Warsi who sees “islamophobia” even when she’s in the privacy of her bathroom. I will however give Warsi one thing; she answered your question and you seemed to have missed it.
     
     
    Osama Hassan attempted (according to him) to challenged the “outdated values” and it didn’t go down very well when he attempted to rewrite or “update”  that which is the unalterable word of god. He was forced from the mosque. Manzoor asks Hasan:
     
    “Does This mean that you are an exception and that most Muslims are far more misogynistic”?   NO!! it means that Muslims are Muslims being Muslims. When Muslims don’t enforce Sharia and adhere to  the words of the prophet and strive to be like the “perfect prophet in every way, then they are not Muslims, that is what it means to other Muslims.
     
    Osman Hasan seems to be convinced that there is some type of “reform going on” which seems to contradict and go against almost everything the MUSLIMS in this video have said and Manzoor “hopes he is right”.
     
     
    So you've heard it from the horse’s mouth once again and it turns out that it all agrees with me and not you. . Even down to “the world” wanting to know about Islam to the point of “obsession”
     
    Even Down to the Main Stream Media pushing a fkn agenda that Muslims leaders AND our own governments want us to hear
     
     
    “It needs us to assume less [ and be allowed to] argue more”. Sarfraz Manzoor.

     This was a radio programme from 2015. I don't know when you FIRST came across it, but I posted The Guardian complimentary piece to this very programm as evidence that muslims hated the terms  " moderate Islam and moderate Muslim" ages ago and simply ignored it.
     
     



  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    Let's see where we are.

    I hold that Muslims object to the terms 'moderate islam' and 'moderate muslim' because (from their pov) it implies that unless you are a fanatical terrorist you are not a 'Proper Muslim'.   A muslim that a westerner would dub 'moderate' does not think of himself as a 'moderate muslim' or any other sort of Muslim, but simply as a Muslim.  

    As I recall the origin of this, you presented Erdogan's comment as corroboration of your view that all Muslims are fanatics because even Erdogan says 'moderate islam' does not exist; i.e there are no moderate muslims,ergo all muslims are fanatics.

    As usual, things are more complicated and messy!

    However, I do not dispute that the majority of British Muslims are not liberal and progressive. 



  • Mopac
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    We should just start using words like Muslim supremacists. Seems political enough.


    Kind of how like progressive and liberal Muslim sounds like a Muslim who is down with the redvolution.

  • keithprosser
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    --> @Mopac
    If there is good will then labels don't matter; if good will is absent everything becomes a problem. 

    It seems good will is in short supply all round.  

    Of course it's always the other side's fault...
  • Mopac
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    --> @keithprosser
    I'm not sure what you mean.

  • keithprosser
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    --> @Mopac
    Don't worry about it.

    I am - at least temporarily - pessimistic about the prospects for peace.


  • Mopac
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    --> @keithprosser
    Jesus Christ is peace.

    There is no philosophy capable of replacing that.



  • keithprosser
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    --> @Mopac
    He seems to have taken a sabbatical because I don't see much peace anywhere.



  • Mopac
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    --> @keithprosser
    The peace of God is one that surpasses this understanding.
  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser


    However, I do not dispute that the majority of British Muslims are not liberal and progressive. 

    You mean  ' you do not dispute that the majority of British Muslims are not liberal and progressive -  anymore. 

    So why do you now believe this?

    What has changed your mind. You cannot be seriously telling me after all the wrangling on this forum we have had, that one single 27 minute radio program brought you to this conclusion and caused you to have a change of mind? 

    This I believe is your man Manzoor making a documentary for the BBC.

    MUSLIM GOES NUTS OVER SATANIC VERSES! (reaction) 30 years on!!!!


    Yes Islam and Muslims has certainly moved on hasn't it keith.
  • Stephen
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    As I recall the origin of this, you presented Erdogan's comment as corroboration of your view that all Muslims are fanatics.

     Then you "recall" wrong. You just WISH I had branded "ALL muslims fanatics",  I have never said that or suggested that. What I have said - as you well know is that Erdogan says that there is no such thing as "moderate islam". I have never mentioned or suggested that ALL MUSLIMS are fanatics.
    And I have never suggested  that it should follow that if there is no "moderate islam, then there are no "moderate muslims". This is you assuming this of me and desperately trying to attach your assumption to me.  Is all I have ever asked you  on this matter is to explain to me what a "moderate muslim is" and you couldn't. 


    And you cannot show me where I have said or even suggested "that all Muslims are fanatics". . So stop being sly just because yet another of your links proves me correct and appears to have caused you to alter your stance on the  term " moderate muslim".

    And you have totaly ignored this too.


    I really think you should listen to that radio program.You probably think its a 'lefty-libtard' puff piece about how the 'Muslims are nice, really' but it isn't like that at all.  It presents a pretty depressing picture of how the Muslim community in Britain is moving away rather than towards liberal and progressive attitudes.
      Then it would be telling me what I already know and have suspected for many years now. So it seems to have opened your eyes more than it needed to open mine. But I will listen to this morning sometime. 

    What i mean is that Muslims are going to form a signficant (and growing) fraction of the British population or a long time to come. 

    They will be coming a growing part in this country, I agree.  But I assure you, it won't have anything to do with BEING PART of a  British population or culture or society. Anyone who believes otherwise is deluding themselves. We have in many towns and cities - Muslims Housing Associations anyone other than muslims cannot access that housing. There is a Muslim Police Association in London which then makes it duel policing i.e one law for them and another for anyone else. There is the shariah police roaming the streets telling people what to do and where they cannot go, reminiscent of the scene of the taliban of Afghanistan beamed into our homes. and no one is stopping them, quite the opposite, I belive  it is being encouraged.  The list is long and you want to pretend it is not there or don't know about it.

    Those that speak of these things publically are  accused of being "FAR RIGHT ISLAMOPHOBES" as you have labeled me. Listen to this ex  Police Officer of 16 years talking about Tommy Robinson's recent conviction.

    Tommy Robinson Goes To Prison Again! - Ex Police Officer Speaks Out Again




     I think it is not realistic to expect them to abandon Islam completely - 

    I agree. it is an impossibility to hope that muslims will suddenly wake up one day to the horrors and the chains of Islam. and they won't be doing it in the next  2000 years





    I think we do have to look very hard at what Muslims - especially young Muslims - are being taught at their mosques and at Islamic schools

    You see this is where you are being willfully ignorant. You KNOW that there have been many documentaries and investigation into both and the findings have been frighteningly shocking. But course you will have ignored this and put it all down to right wing propaganda, hate speech, racism and that good ole' favourite of the left "islamophobia".

    being taught

    And we know what they are being taught here on British soil, they are being taught the quran just as they are taught in the madrasa' of Pakistan. Many of these kids are taught nothing else but to repeat over and over verses from this vile book while hypnotically rocking forward and backward with their legs crossed. They are being taught that anyone not Muslim is a fkn animal. 

    Video Recorded Inside a Muslim Faith School in the UK


    You see you KNOW what they are being taught but simply pretend that you don't know and have to investigate and find out. This is appeasement, this is apologising. The police in Rochdale and Rotherham said " we will investigate these allegations of child rape", when they did, What did they do? They "poured some sand on top of it". And denied it for absolute years out of FEAR and appeasement!

    I think it is crucial that tolerance doesn't become appeasement.
      
    Tool late for that my friend. There has been much bending the knee to Islam already in this country and across Europe of which I have shown you examples just for you to turn around and accuse me of casting Islam in a bad light. That is apologising and appeasing Islam.


    But this is Britain, not a police state 

    God, you really are in fkn dark aren't you. There are hundreds of police officers now so fed up that the Police force has become  nothing more than a tool for government. 



    Or we could do nothing and hope for the best....

    They are working on snatching that from us too. And they do this by inventing new words and redefining the English language and making crimes of things that are not crimes at all. 

    but that isn't working.

     yes I have trying to tell you that for quite a while now.
      



  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    I think a Martian sociologist would say the left is in denial of the problem and the right exaggerates it!



  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser
    I think a Martian sociologist would say the left is in denial of the problem and the right exaggerates it!

    Doesn't take much to shut you up causing you to state such silly and stupid things. I will  take that as you have once more run out of argument.

    What  I say is that  , YOU and other left wing apologist are in denial and the "right" who -  highlight the problem even at the risk of being called racist bigoted "islamophobes" are slowly waking people up to the menace we in the west are facing.

    At your request I spent over an hour of my time listening to and commenting on a link that you posted: You haven't addressed a single thing of what I said above . 

    Remember what that young muslim girl said in the link, your link?

    "everyone is talking about Islam, the world is talking about Islam". What she forgot to add was  'since 9/11.' That is why "the world" is waking up and "talking about fk ISLAM!"  I actually started to wake up after the Salman Rushdie affair. Alarm bells should have rang out but  It was a warning many ignored except the great atheist himself Christopher Hitchens.



  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    Doesn't take much to shut you up causing you to state such silly and stupid things. I will  take that as you have once more run out of argument.
    I've only just got up, Stephen!  I'm not always in the mood for heavy posting.  This is your hobby-horse and my passtime.

    What's the argument, anyway?  Have I argued Islam is good?  Have I argued that Islamism is nothing to worry about?  Have I argued current government policy is effective?  I've argued Islam is need of reform, but stressed that reform will be very difficult and things will probably get worse rather than better, at least in the short term.

    I've pointed out to posters who compare Islam and Christianity that argument doesn't work.  Considering how much we agree I wonder what  bothers you so much.
      





  • disgusted
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    --> @Stephen
    I don't believe in miracles but it would be one if Stevie wonder ever spoke realistic sense. He might prove that his god exists if he does.
  • disgusted
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    --> @keithprosser
    Not only that keith but Stevie wonder is pissing his pant's frightened of a % of the population less that the % of homosexuals, why isn't he more afraid of them, or is he?
  • Stephen
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    Tell me, why did you ask me to watch this link.?https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b055g740


    What i mean is that Muslims are going to form a signficant (and growing) fraction of the British population or a long time to come. 

    They will be coming a growing part in this country, I agree.  But I assure you, it won't have anything to do with BEING PART of a  British population or culture or society. Anyone who believes otherwise is deluding themselves. We have in many towns and cities - Muslims Housing Associations anyone other than muslims cannot access that housing. There is a Muslim Police Association in London which then makes it duel policing i.e one law for them and another for anyone else. There is the shariah police roaming the streets telling people what to do and where they cannot go, reminiscent of the scene of the taliban of Afghanistan beamed into our homes. and no one is stopping them, quite the opposite, I belive  it is being encouraged.  The list is long and you want to pretend it is not there or don't know about it.

    Those that speak of these things publically are  accused of being "FAR RIGHT ISLAMOPHOBES" as you have labeled me. Listen to this ex  Police Officer of 16 years talking about Tommy Robinson's recent conviction.

    Tommy Robinson Goes To Prison Again! - Ex Police Officer Speaks Out Again


  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser
    I've pointed out to posters who compare Islam and Christianity that argument doesn't work.

    Only after I had pointed that fact out to you - many times - when you kept trying to introduce that same argument. And I have said many times, the        " crusades" argument doesn't work either. No doubt you will be spouting  this  too when you realise that it doesn't work either. 


     Believe me when I tell you, Islam is not here to improve our lives. It is here to improve the lives of Muslims under sharia. 

    But those that speak of these things publically are  accused of being "FAR RIGHT ISLAMOPHOBES" as you have labeled me.

    I listened to your link . I have to wonder why you wanted me to listen to it considering it turned out to support my arguments rather than yours.

    Do me the same courtesy and listen to this ex  Police Officer of 16 years talking about Tommy Robinson's recent conviction.

    Tommy Robinson Goes To Prison Again! - Ex Police Officer Speaks Out Again


  • disgusted
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    --> @Stephen
    Why are you so AFRAID of muslims?
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    I have to wonder why you wanted me to listen to it considering it turned out to support my arguments rather than yours.
    I think it doesn't support what you assumed about my position.   My position is that an Islamic take over is not today's problem.  Today's problem is the worsening of inter-community relations, which results in a hardening of attitides and polarisation.   It's a downward spiral that can't end well.

    The young Muslims in the program are very different to the Muslim presenter.   The billion dollar question is why.  I don't accept there is a 'true' interpretation of a religion.  There are many different interpretations which have all been dominant at various times and places.   I suspect the rise of 'non-liberal' Islam has a lot to do with the byzantine politics of the middle east - but I suspect not even the players of that game know what they are doing!

     
      
  • Stephen
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    I think it doesn't support what you assumed about my position. 

    You keep changing it. One minute you come over full blown apologist, accusing me of being a racist bigoted "islamophobe" who is "spreading hate and fear" and desperately trying to ally me with the "far right"., the next you are suggesting that we agree on a lot concerning ISLAM, and "wonder why" it bothers me so much?  


    IT BOTHERS ME BECAUSE BASTARDIZERS LIKE YOU PRETEND NOTHING IS WRONG AND WE ARE ALL GETTING ALONG SWIMMINGLY!!!!

    I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.  




    My position is that an Islamic take over is not today's problem. 

    Yes, I  know. Like have said, as long as it doesn't happen in YOUR lifetime then you don't give two fks for future generations . As long as it is not happening on your fk doorstep and doesn't affect you in the slightest then it is not happening. This is you in full blown denial just like all leftist apologists, You pretend it isn't there.  And the irony is that when I am asked to prove my position, you then scream and stamp your fkn feet accusing me of posting "far right propaganda".
    I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.  



    Today's problem is the worsening of inter-community relations, which results in a hardening of attitides and polarisation.   It's a downward spiral that can't end well.
    Indeed and this is all because government and people like you have failed to recognise the problem, refused to listen to the concerns of those THAT IT IS AFFECTING, and trying to close down any criticism of ISLAM. I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.  


    The young Muslims in the program are very different to the Muslim presenter.   The billion dollar question is why

    Because there are more of them (muslims) now than when WARSI and the presenter was growing up. There were no "muslims councils", there were no Muslim police federations, there were no shariah police roaming the fk streets of our towns and cities telling the indigenous what they can and cannot do. There were no mas prayers meetings  on the fk streets and in parks, and there were no fkn mosques when I was a boy or even a teenager..  WARSI and the presenter were more 'westernised'  because they were surrounded by western white children and adults who were in the greater numbers when they were growing up. They were friends with whites English/ British children and went to majority white western schools,  and you have to ask "why"? Try thinking outside of your left wing apologist box and the truth may hopefully slap you between the fkn eyebrows

    This is what MUSLIMS do. They will be the politest people in the country when in small numbers agreeing with and abiding by the laws of the land, Once they gain the upper hand and grow in numbers, then they start demanding another way of living. I have told you his a thousand billion times. but you refuse to see it. This is happening all over Europe. Islam is a problem ALL over Europe's and the western english speaking world, why do you think that is We haven't got any problems with Sikhs and Hindus  or Buddhists, or Zoroastrians, they have been coming here and living here just as long. This is ONLY happens with ISLAM.  And again, when I put forward any evidence for this, you will again accuse me of all the above. 

    I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.  


    I don't accept there is a 'true' interpretation of a religion. 

    Islam is not a religion, you keep forgetting that. And even if it were it wouldn't be for you to decide on the "interpretations" as much as you keep banging on about "interpretation". 
    I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.  

    There are many different interpretations which have all been dominant at various times and places.

    No there aren't , they are all ISLAM and even if this were true, the one that concerns me is today's "interpretation".I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.  




      but I suspect not even the players of that game know what they are doing!

    Do not kid yourself. Their goal is the same as it was 1400 years ago - a worldwide caliphate - an ISLAMIC STATE! They certainly do know what they are doing. 


    I am still waiting for you recommendations of what can be done.  
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    IT BOTHERS ME BECAUSE BASTARDIZERS LIKE YOU PRETEND NOTHING IS WRONG AND WE ARE ALL GETTING ALONG SWIMMINGLY!!!!

    I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.  
    Apparently I think nothing needs to be done because we are all getting along so swimmingly!

    That's why I wrote "Today's problem is the worsening of inter-community relations, which results in a hardening of attitides and polarisation.   It's a downward spiral that can't end well."   and "We have to pull Islam's teeth" and "we have to work with moderate Muslims", "stop using inflamatory rhetoric" and so on and so on.

    There might be 'bastardisers' who pretend nothing's wrong - but I'm not one of them!  I don't think complacency and appeasement are solutions, but making things worse by spreading right-wing populist propaganda is not a solution either!
     
  • disgusted
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    --> @Stephen
    Muslims are scary, hey.
  • Stephen
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    IT BOTHERS ME BECAUSE BASTARDIZERS LIKE YOU PRETEND NOTHING IS WRONG AND WE ARE ALL GETTING ALONG SWIMMINGLY!!!!

    I am still waiting for your recommendations of what can be done.   
    Apparently I think nothing needs to be done because we are all getting along so swimmingly! 


      So just so I am clear. are you actaully saying  "nothings needs to be done"?