Marcionism

Author: keithprosser ,

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  • keithprosser
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    I've always had a soft spot for Marcion of Sinope!   Wikipedia puts it thus: "Marcionists believed that the wrathful Hebrew God was a separate and lower entity than the all-forgiving God of the New Testament."

    I don't propose Marcion was right - I don't believe in gods, whether singly, pairwise or multiple!  But Marcion didn't baulk from stating the obvious - the OT and NT conceptions of God are completely different and incompatible.

    yhwh's origin lies in the traditions and culture of the (very) ancient middle east.  Yhwh is a tribal chief with magical powers.  An ancient Hebrew - or anyother ancient mide easterner - knew there were many gods (more or less one per tribe or city).   Gods looked after the interests of their particular people in exchange for ritual worship.  It was essential to keep your god 'sweet' or it would inflict -or not prevent - disaster, such as a famine, drought or defeat in war.       
    The gods of the ancient middle east had little interst in individuals, before or after death.   The were gods of entire nations.

    The NT God reflects very different social and cultural conditions.  1st century Jews weren't a primitive nomadic tribe - they were a politically powerless people under the occupation of foreign powers.  yhwh would not hold with 'the meek shall inherit the earth'!

    But Marcion's ideas didn't catch on, and Christians have been saddled with the baggage of the OT ever since.
       
  • Swagnarok
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    There's no need. Both the Old and New Testament are part of the same running narrative, and the study of both contribute to one's understanding of God.
  • Snoopy
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    --> @keithprosser
    It's the latest covenant. 
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Swagnarok
    That is the accepted Christian view... but amongst the religious I think the Jews might see things differently!

    I try to look at things in historical terms, particularly why some ideas come to dominate and others fade into obscurity.   Christian theologians have certainly put a lot of effort into reconciling the testaments.   The point is that (for example) 'type/antitype' theory is only necessary because the testaments are so differnt in tone - the OT has to be justified somehow!

    On the other extreme a different early Christian group - the Ebionites - used the OT as their scripture and rejected the teachings of Paul which forms the basis of the NT!     



  • keithprosser
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    --> @Snoopy
    It's just latest covenant.
    The latest revelation - to Mohammed - is however not accepted by Christians, just as Jews did not accept Jesus.  </sarcasm>



  • Snoopy
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    --> @keithprosser
    I don't intend this to be an analogous "justification", however, you have a developing relationship with your parents to relate to as a young child distinguished from when you have been raised to be relatively self sufficient.  The reality of the world you live in will punish you, especially if you don't heed the wisdom of the elders who love you.  
  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    --> @keithprosser
    I'm not trying to be vulgar keirth  and I don't want a answer 
    I boiled your first post down to. 
    Well.
    I now KNOW You are circumcised. 
    Say no more.
    Moving on.

    Hey Keith, All the gods around this time you are talking about are them NO FORESKINS ALLOWED kinda GODS hey?
    Every god was but most don't bother any more.

    Actually, having a foreskin isn't at all very religious like. 

    Are these Marcion forskin friendly?


    Also Keith, does  being circumcised or not change  occums razor stats?  It has to right?















  • RoderickSpode
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    --> @keithprosser
    What do you make of the NT incident involving Ananias and Sapphira?



  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @keithprosser



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    keithprosser,

    Subjectively, early Christians severely screwed up when they kept the brutal serial killer Yahweh as the same God within the New Testament.  Then to make matters even worse, when Jesus is considered Yahweh God incarnate, then Jesus is held culpable for ALL of the drastic murders Yahweh accomplished within the Old Testament. Trying to align the Old and New Testaments is daunting to say the least.

    Facetiously, the Christian faction stole Yahweh from His true followers, the Hebrews: 


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  • keithprosser
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    --> @RoderickSpode
    What do you make of the NT incident involving Ananias and Sapphira?
    Not sure what this has to o with Marcion, but you have to start reading at the end of Chapter 4 of acts:

    acts 4: 32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.
    It seems inescapable that Christianity was originally a 'end times' cult.   Rich members were expected to sell their possesions so all members could await the new age, which was (presumably) thought to be imminent, perhaps a matter of days or weeks away.

    'Joseph' does so:

    36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), 37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet.
    Ananias and Sapphira famously do not!

    It looks to me that there may have been a 'two-speed' arrangement - the 'hard-core' gave up their wealth (such as Joseph and A+S aspired to join)and other believers who were merely superstitious:

    13 No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. 14 Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. 15 As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by.

  • RoderickSpode
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    --> @keithprosser
    The reason I brought them up is because it's a situation similar to severe incidences involving punishment in the O.T. An alleged sweeter version of God doesn't fit the scenario here. What is similar is that the followers of Christ in the book of Acts were in a similar "vow" situation (in this case discipleship) that resulted in severe chastisement. This is why Christ suggested rather strongly that believers count the cost of discipleship.

    The end times cult thing is just speculation. We can't assume they all ignored Christ's proclamation that no one knows the end time. Paul wasn't concerned about it to the effect that he wouldn't bother with evangelizing. We can't assume this on any other known disciples at that time. There was no doubt, as there is today, people who think the end times will be in their life time. During WWII many Christians were sure of this. But Christians sacrifice their lives for purer reasons than thinking life will just shortly come to an end anyway. Paul's focus was on reaching the Jews (and non-Jews) with the Gospel. We can't assume he was the only one who's focus was more on others than himself.

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @keithprosser
    Read the "Tiger's Fang" by Paul Twitchell. Not really relevant to the OP but it gives you an understanding of what incarnations and demi-gods are and why they exist. All these "God's" and higher beings come out from one Source. It's very likely that the god described in the OT experience rules a part of creation, perhaps created this material universe. But in order for the singular Source to have any form at all It must incarnate and does so to channel power and creativity. Most people don't really know or understand that Polytheism is indeed compatible with Monotheism, in that you can have a singular creative Source that incarnates lower and higher souls/beings. If you really consider this it's very interesting and answers many dilemmas and questions. 
  • keithprosser
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    --> @RoderickSpode
    The reason I brought them up is because it's a situation similar to severe incidences involving punishment in the O.T
    I realised that was probably your reason a bit too late - there's not much love and forgiveness going on in Acts 5!!
    Yhwh's old ways are certainly to the fore there - in those early days ideas were were still in flux.  Many early Christians were after all Jews, with the idea of god gained from the OT. 





  • Stephen
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    --> @BrotherDThomas
    Subjectively, early Christians severely screwed up when they kept the brutal serial killer Yahweh as the same God within the New Testament.

    Although the Christ mentions  his "father" quite a lot (over 150 times) no one knows who the New Testament Christian god actually is and you cannot say who he is unless your of the mind that Jesus was "god" and the same Old Testament god that Hebrews are said to have served which would show the glaring contradiction between the personalities. But of course, you simply wave away contradictions as irrelevant when they get in the way of your opinion don't you  'brother'?   Does the god yahweh appear anywhere in the New Testament?  Does the word /name Yahweh appear in the New Testament? There is absolutely no evidence that "Christians kept the ancient yahweh as their god", as you seem to be suggesting, none whatsoever.






  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @Stephen



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    Stephen,

    Once again pertaining to your outright biblical ignorance in your post listed below, I have to once again CORRECT you!
    https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/2289/marcionism?page=1&post_number=14


    YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE: “Although the Christ mentions  his "father" quite a lot (over 150 times) no one knows who the New Testament Christian god actually is and you cannot say who he is unless your of the mind that Jesus was "god" and the same Old Testament god that Hebrews are said to have served which would show the glaring contradiction between the personalities.”

    I thought you said that you knew more about the bible than I will ever live to know, remember?  Therefore, why do you continue to add more proverbial egg to your face by continuing to be totally bible ignorant?!

    The TRUE Christian does know who the Father is, and that is Jesus, as a part of the Triune Doctrine in being Yahweh God incarnate of the Old Testament.  Earth to Stephen, H-E-L-L-O, anybody home today?

    “But in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God the pillar and support of the truth. By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.” (1 Timothy 3:15-16) 

    “Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” (Philippians 2:5-8)

    “Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28) 



    YOUR CONTINUING BIBLE IGNORANCE AT YOUR EXPENSE: “ Does the god yahweh appear anywhere in the New Testament?  Does the word /name Yahweh appear in the New Testament? There is absolutely no evidence that "Christians kept the ancient yahweh as their god", as you seem to be suggesting, none whatsoever.”

    Oh, my, I have seen the bible ignorant of Jesus’ creation before, but YOU take the cake! The OT and NT are connected with the
    SAME GOD!. When the term “God” appears in the New Testament, it is referring to Yahweh of the Old Testament writings, which in turn, is referring to Jesus as being Yahweh God incarnate.  Here, let me help your complete bible ignorance once again with the following passage showing that Jesus is in the Old Testament as Yahweh God, okay?

    JESUS STATED: “Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. If you had believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”  (John 5:45-47)

    GET IT? HUH? If Moses spoke of Jesus, then most certainly Jesus is not only Yahweh God incarnate, but in turn, CHRISTIANS DID KEEP THE ANCIENT YAHWEH AS THEIR GOD!  2+2=4, OIL AND WATER DON’T MIX, AND YOU ARE ONE OF THE MOST BIBLE IGNORNAT OF ANY PERSON THAT I HAVE EVER RUN ACROSS!

    Please don't make me "Bible Slap" you again, agreed? Thank you. Stephen, your continued BIBLE IGNORANCE is excused once again, at your expense.


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  • Stephen
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    Stephen
    YOUR CONTINUING BIBLE IGNORANCE AT YOUR EXPENSE: “ Does the god yahweh appear anywhere in the New Testament?  Does the word /name Yahweh appear in the New Testament? There is absolutely no evidence that "Christians kept the ancient yahweh as their god", as you seem to be suggesting, none whatsoever.”

    Oh, my, I have seen the bible ignorant of Jesus’ creation before, but YOU take the cake! The OT and NT are connected with the 
    SAME GOD!. 


     So that is a clear no then. 



    YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE: “Although the Christ mentions  his "father" quite a lot (over 150 times) no one knows who the New Testament Christian god actually is and you cannot say who he is unless your of the mind that Jesus was "god" and the same Old Testament god that Hebrews are said to have served which would show the glaring contradiction between the personalities.”

    The TRUE Christian does know who the Father is, and that is Jesus, as a part of the Triune Doctrine in being Yahweh God incarnate of the Old Testament. 

    You have not a single piece of evidence to support that claim. You are just making all this shite up as you go as do all bible bashing Christians do when stumped by the obvious. and you still haven't explained what a "True Christian" is in your own delusional opinion. You have no more claim to the "truth" or being a "true Christian" than any other christian denomination. 
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    But the gospel writers continually reference the OT and don't repudiate the older books.  The non-appearance of yhwh in the NT may be due to the simple fact the nt was wriiten in greek, not Hebrew and also a taboo had developed around yaying or writing 'the sacred word' - many Jews (and others) write 'G-d' as a consequence.  'Kyrios' (Lord) is used in the NT and the greek septuagint to reference God.   Christianity was - at roor - a heretical Judaic sect.

    For those reasons I'd say the Christian God is taken to be identical to the OT yhwh in mainstream (ie non-Marcionist) Christiology.

    But it's a metphysical puzzle for an atheist whether one non-existing god is the same as another non-existing god!  But as characters, they are very different.


  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @Stephen



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    Stephen,

    Subsequent to you wiping the egg from your face AGAIN, regarding me "Schooling You" upon the topic of Jesus resurrection and crucifixion, I am having to do it again relative to your post #16 above. When are you going to give me a break to your bible ignorance?!


    YOUR QUOTE IN RESPONSE TO ME STATING THAT CHRISTIANS DO KNOW WHO THE FATHER IS, IT WAS JESUS (POST #16):  “You have not a single piece of evidence to support that claim. You are just making all this shite up as you go as do all bible bashing Christians do when stumped by the obvious. and you still haven't explained what a "True Christian" is in your own delusional opinion. You have no more claim to the "truth" or being a "true Christian" than any other christian denomination. "

    When you make embarrassing statements like above, I am sure there are many others that are tiring of your complete biblical ignorance! Stephen, let me “School You” once again in front of the DebateArt membership, at your embarrassing expense. The evidence of Jesus being Yahweh God incarnate, and the same God in the Old Testament, is as follows, to wit:


    JESUS IS THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT WRITINGS!

    Paul portrays Jesus as that God that led Israel out of Egypt to the Promised Land. “For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.  They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.  They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.” (1 Corinthians 10:1-4)

    Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, stated there is only one God, and that is Him: “Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?  You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?  No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.” (Isaiah 44:8 )

    Jesus refers to Himself before the Jews using the same name that He gave Moses at the burning bush.  "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I AM!” (John 8:58 )


    JESUS IS YAHWEH GOD INCARNATE!

    “But in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.” (1 Timothy 3:15-16)

    Who was the “living god" at this time: Jesus
    Who was the mystery of godliness: Jesus
    Who was revealed in the flesh as God: Jesus
    Who was vindicated by the Spirit (3rd part of the Triune): Jesus
    Who was seen by the angels: Jesus
    Who was claimed among the nations: Jesus
    Who was believed on in the world: Jesus
    Who was taken up in glory? (ascension of Jesus in Acts 1:6-11): Jesus

    No spin doctoring apologetics or insidious hermeneutics is needed when simply deducing this passage to its irreducible primary, whereas, Jesus is Yahweh God incarnate of the Old Testament!


    JESUS ADMITS HE IS YAHWEH GOD INCARNATE!

    "Jesus answered: "Don"t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father,  How can you say, "Show us the Father"? (John 14: 9-)


    THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD, THEREFORE JESUS IS THAT GOD!

    Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (1 Corinthians 8:6)


    To your embarrassing dismay once again, and as explicitly shown within the scriptures, Jesus is Yahweh God incarnate of the Old Testament. Therefore, to prevent you from further embarrassment, may I suggest that you either take some time off from DebateArt, or inhabit a Christian “Childrens Forum” where your complete bible ignorance won’t be so revealing to the equally bible ignorant children. Yes?  You’re welcome.


    Stephen, do you have some kind of an ungodly fetish, where you get off on being one of the most biblically ignorant members on DebateArt religion forum?


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