red flag gun laws should be implemented nationwide

Author: n8nrgmi ,

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  • n8nrgmi
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    if the legal system determines someone is likely, or probably, going to commit a violent crime, why shouldn't we take their guns, at least temporarily? that's all red flag laws do. why should the standard for preventing gun access be that the person already committed a violent crime beyond a reasonable doubt?
  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @n8nrgmi
    why should the standard for preventing gun access be that the person already committed a violent crime beyond a reasonable doubt?
    Problem could be what is defined "reasonable".
    If that is robust enough and that data is given to the public so that they know it is good and are able to change the action. That is good for me but that is a big ask given reasonable can mean whatever the current president wants. 

    Republican president: 2nd amendment and we shouldn't take that away.

    Democrat president: "Reasonable" (depends on if it is a moderate, socialist, center lefty etc) threat meant we had to take it away.
  • n8nrgmi
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    --> @TheRealNihilist
    what reasonable means isn't determined by presidents. it's determined by judges and or juries. 
  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @n8nrgmi
    what reasonable means isn't determined by presidents. it's determined by judges and or juries. 
    Who has control over judges and juries and the laws they abide by the most?

    Not control as in make them corrupt as in appoint people to positions. 

  • Alec
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    --> @n8nrgmi
    What are red flag gun laws?
  • Polytheist-Witch
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    --> @n8nrgmi
    What is the criteria for that? How do the find the information to determine that? How do you legislate what someone might do? 
  • Dr.Franklin
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    They can get guns from the border, then knife crimes go up, stop banning guns 

  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    some say gun control/restrictions have racist roots, sounds very plausible imo would a red flag apply to someone I think looks like a thug/gang member?  why not?  looks like a criminal to me right?  remember what "swatting" is?  people are already being killed with these red flag laws in some of the states that have them.  Prisons are one of the most secure and monitored places there could be and yet look at the weapons and contraband recovered from them.  If a high profiled suspect can be stopped from committing suicide what makes anyone think they can stop criminals?  Disarming or otherwise inhibiting law abiding citizens the right to protect themselves is tyrannical and serves no purpose other than to control the populous.
    "Shall not be infringed" was put in for a reason.  I find it ironic that those who call the government and police murderers, racist etc only want them to have guns.
    If you believe the police are racist, imagine if you will they have no fear that any citizen could be armed because of confiscation or whatever, they are the only ones with guns, they could act with impunity.  No one should ever pull a gun on a cop, but I have to believe it is in the back of their mind and so they act with a bit of caution, far more than if the public was totally unarmed.  Mexico is a pretty good example of corrupt police, they have no fear.
  • ILikePie5
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    You need due process and 4th Amendment protections. Until then I do not support these laws.
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    “Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with.”

  • n8nrgmi
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    --> @Greyparrot @ILikePie5
    so if someone is probably going to kill other people, you don't think the government should do anything to stop it? 
  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @n8nrgmi
    Did you have a problem with what I said earlier? 
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @n8nrgmi
    It's just really hard to find any cold solid data that shows "because of this law, this specific crazy suicidal person in America chose to use less deadly means to kill like  knives and trucks to kill a bunch of people rather than illegally acquire a gun in the USA."

    You can't use data from countries that don't have the same amount of crazy people as the USA, nor will there ever exist a world where the sane citizens of the USA will hand over their guns peacefully to the government.

    These laws are all based on feelings after the fact, which is why when one asks a person how these laws are going to stop a suicidal crazy person who is determined to kill a lot of people, they really have no answer other than feelings. Just doing something is worse than doing nothing because doing something ineffective gives you the illusion that you are actually solving the problem. At least by doing nothing, you have more motivation to try to identify real therapy for the massive amounts of crazy suicidal people in America knowing gun control is not the snake oil that's going to fix anything. Sometimes, placebos are more toxic than doing nothing at all if it prevents people from seeing a doctor.

    I remember watching a Tom Clancy movie and this quote came up.

    "I am not worried about a person that wants 10 nuclear warheads. I am worried about the person that wants only one"



  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @Greyparrot
    10 years of an "assault weapons ban" which was studied, verdict (shrug) but hey let's try the same thing again because it just feels right I guess, if no positive effect from the first ban could be shown why would another work?  actually the if anything the data shows it really had NO effect.
    If someone is deemed by a court of law that a person is a danger to themselves or others then they can be prohibited from having firearms, that has always been the case.  These "red flag laws" are unconstitutional and just a whole lot of b.s.
    Not one person who's called for a new anything can articulate how and why their idea would work, take it on faith the religion of government, in government they trust.
  • ILikePie5
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    --> @n8nrgmi
    so if someone is probably going to kill other people, you don't think the government should do anything to stop it? 

    They should. After due process.
  • n8nrgmi
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    --> @ILikePie5
    with red flag laws, the accused people get due process. all due process is is a court having a hearing on the matter to ensure the situation is just and legal. 
  • ILikePie5
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    --> @n8nrgmi
    with red flag laws, the accused people get due process. all due process is is a court having a hearing on the matter to ensure the situation is just and legal. 

    Some states don’t have due process built into their red flag laws. That’s why I said - due process is a must...the govt must prove in a court of law that the firearm would be harmful to society and dangerous to the person himself.

    Even then however, the question would be do you trust the government including the courts, since judges can have an agenda as well.
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @ILikePie5
    The state should have to go to court first before they can remove your guns.
  • ILikePie5
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    --> @Greyparrot
    The state should have to go to court first before they can remove your guns.

    Agreed - that’s what I meant. Due process before confiscation, not the other way around.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    Failure to get good guys guns and bad guys no guns has been the biggest failure of American leadership