Extras for debates (official thread, do not troll this or spam anything other than what is outlined)

Author: RationalMadman ,

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  • RationalMadman
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    1. This is to become the official thread for all 'extras' in debates. You are absolutely free to keep using comments but this is to stop a need for one to dox themselves via Google Docs as well as avoiding the security risk of a random person getting access to editing the pastebin, or even the original person editing the Doc later for the Sources list, debate and/or vote.
    2. If you want to post a debate after it's due and justify it inside a debate, you should post it here when/if you've posted it to the Docs so as to establish that you haven't further edited it since.
    3. This thread is to be used for source lists only in debates where it is agreed by both debaters that Character Count shouldn't restrict it.

    ==

    You can post any format you like, it's your style of RFD, sources or post-deadling debate. This thread has no impact whatsoever on the validity if your RFD, source-list and/or post-deadline debate in the eyes of others on the website, especially mods. 

    ==

    Christen and a debate I am having vs PressF4Respect, as well as vs Oromagi, were the inspiration for this thread's creation. It's official in my eyes but the Mods may make it less so (I see no reason to).


  • RationalMadman
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    --> @bsh1 @David @DebateArt.com
    Will appreciate this being pinned.
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Christen @Exile
    Christen's RFD (copy and pasted from the pastebin link that he posted):

    Part 1
    Both sides had pretty good arguments, pretty reliable sources, great spelling and grammar (probably better than my own spelling and grammar) and good conduct, It's going to be quite difficult for me to decide who to award the points to.

    I will start with spelling and grammar since that seems to be the simplest. Most people who vote in debates do not actually seem to care if there are spelling/grammar errors as long as there aren't too many, which, I suppose would make sense, since, it's not really possible for even the best debaters in the world to spell perfectly all the time, and it would be stupid to vote against someone just because their spelling/grammar wasn't 100% perfect. I've had debates where I myself made a few spelling errors, but the voters either missed it or they caught it but decided it wasn't a big deal, and they still either tied it or voted in my favor. Not only that, but, the spelling of certain words often changes in different countries. For example, words like color and armor are spelled COLOR and ARMOR, but in other countries, there is a U towards the end of the word, so it's spelled COLOUR and ARMOUR. Most voters won't penalize debaters for spellings that vary in different countries.

    I'll admit I saw a few VERY minor spelling errors from both sides, but these we very minor, and both sides still put forth a great effort to be as professional as possible, so I tied it.

    Next is conduct, which I gave to Exile, although both sides could have conducted this debate better.

    Unlike RationalMadman, Exile took the time to define most terms so that it would be easy to understand and follow, while RationalMadman barely does that.

    Exile listed things that "Con has to do" to win:

    "Prove that an immunity policy does not hinder and obstruct the rights of someone being accused of sexual assault and/or rape." - I would say that the burden of proof is actually on Exile to prove this, not RationalMadman. After all, Exile is the one claiming that "College administrators should decline immunity to victims" and the burden of proof generally lies in the one making the claim. If I say that there is a teapot orbiting around planet Saturn at this very moment, it should be my responsibility to prove that, not for someone else to disprove. The same thing applies here.

    "Show how game theory is an integral factor for a victim coming forward." - Not only that, but RationalMadman also should have actually explained what game theory was, to begin with, which he did not do, so I was left confused about that.

    "Show how the various methods of rape that exist on college campuses today (like the student-professor rape and vice versa that Con points out) could warrant the use of an immunity policy." - RationalMadman did do this thought. He said, and I quote, "when males are raped (especially by females but regardless), which almost always is date rape especially with stronger-built men, it's far harder for them to come forward. If the female is attractive or whatever, it's extremely humiliating for them to come forward about it they struggle to come to terms with the fact that they, manly as they are, were raped by this psycho bitch who often can be charming during it if she wants to, especially if she wants him to get hard. It's disgusting, vile and deeply scarring just as much as rape to any female victim. The humiliation associated with it, teasing from friends 'you wanted it man', 'wow what a pussy' etc are so utterly brutal, unbearable that they'd rather keep their mouth shut. Now, imagine that on top of that they need to get a drug charge and what-not, they're blatantly not going to report it unless they are some saint with a hero complex seeking redemption for their soul or something."

    "Prove that the immunity policies that exist don't help the victim overcome drug abuse." - This is not something that EITHER debater has to prove, though, since nobody was really claiming this.

    "STILL prove how a student-professor rape warrants the use of an immunity policy (like Con mentioned in his opening)" - RationalMadman did not prove this. All he did was bring up student-professor rape and then drop it without going into more detail about it further.

    "STILL prove how game theory is an integral factor in keeping immunity policies on college campuses." - Also needs to explain what that is.

    "prove why the rights for the victim are far more important than that who is accused in the first place." - This, RationalMadman does not need to prove since, at the end of the day, people who are accused are innocent until proven guilty, so, regardless who has more "rights," the victim still needs to prove that a rape happened.

    "Understand the difference between a plea bargain and an immunity policy." - Yeah, I actually agree with this. RationalMadman seemed to have kept confusing the two. To clarify, an immunity JUST means that, if both the alleged victim and the alleged rapist were doing some other illegal thing like drugs or whatever, then the alleged victim would be forgiven for that, while the alleged rapist would be punished for that, and also punished even harder if it turns out to be true that a rape or sexual assault happened.

    "Show why the presence of a net-detrimental outcome for someone who is accused is a good thing for victims, and how this solves the status quo." - Neither side bothered to explain was a "net-detriment" even was, leaving me confused.

    Next up will be sources, which I award to Exile. RationalMadman's first 2 sources were a NYTimes article and some random healthday article, both of which have nothing to do with immunity, and have nothing to do with the debate. RationalMadman's other sources were a bit better, but they still go off topic, and RationalMadman doesn't even quote the part of his source, that is actually related to immunity.
    https://pastebin.com/LCZFzV7x Accessed 15th August 2019
  • RationalMadman
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    Part 2
    Finally, I give the arguments to RationalMadman. Exile argued that "Rights are still being infringed, and even if that person did commit a rape it still causes a skew in the college "judicial" system because the punishment will be more severe for the guy being accused." but doesn't actually specify which constitutional rights are being infringed, especially the alleged victim still has to prove the alleged rapist guilty.


    Exile arguments about how "an immunity policy does not only do damage to the accused, but also the accuser. As the science of addiction tells us, someone who had been doing illegal drugs/consuming alcohol once will most likely do it again, and keep doing it. Eventually, regardless whether or not a victim gets justice, there's no incentive/motivation for a victim to stop doing drugs or decreasing alcohol consumption. This evidently puts the victim in more danger, as now the victim has the idea that he/she can still do drugs and be protected by the administration. What if another rape happens to the victim? What if their health gets worse and is now in danger?" - The problem with this is that Exile is blaming immunity policies for something that isn't their fault. An immunity policy JUST makes it so that you don't get punished for something if a rapist was doing it with you, and/or also sexually assaulting you. An immunity policy can't do anything about people who want to keep using drugs/alcohol, it isn't meant to be a "motivation" for people to "stop doing drugs". The victim chose to put themselves in danger, not the immunity policy.


    Exile has, and I quote, "a lot of sympathy for those who are unfairly held in contempt by a college, and not even given a chance to defend themselves." - Again, they don't need to defend themselves. The accuser just needs to prove them guilty. If they cannot, the accuser could get into trouble for slander/defamation, so it is risky to just randomly accuse strangers of sexual harassment.


    Besides, regardless if people are treated "unfairly" in this case, the fact of the matter is they shouldn't be using drugs in the first place.


    So I award arguments to RationalMadman, since his arguments were overall better and made more sense, logically.

    - See above post.
  • Christen
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    --> @bsh1 @David @DebateArt.com @Ramshutu @RationalMadman
    This is to become the official thread for all 'extras' in debates.
    This is actually not necessary. The main reason some people use Google Docs or Pastebin to begin with, is if their voting reasons exceed the character limit, and they cannot normally post their reasons in the default voting form. In fact, a better alternative would be to simply extend the character limit to like 20,000 characters or something, or just remove it outright so this problem doesn't exist anymore.

    this is to stop a need for one to dox themselves via Google Docs
    Nobody's doxxing "themselves via Google Docs". They're just posting their voting reasons there, when they can't do it normally due to the character limit. If any actual personal information such as phone number or address is found within the Google Docs, then it should be reported and/or deleted. Either way, no one is dumb enough to put their personal info in a Google Doc for others to see anyways. Even if someone did do that for some reason, like post their address, most people aren't going to care where they live or where to find them, since the address could, after all, be fake, and it's too dumb and tedious to go looking for random people in real life when you could be doing different things with your life.

    as well as avoiding the security risk of a random person getting access to editing the pastebin
    The way pastebin works is that you can choose to either post something using an account, or post it anonymously. If you choose to post it using an account, then it can be accessed and edited later by you. If you post it anonymously without an account, then nobody can come back an edit it later, not even you. They can download a copy of your pastebin for themselves, in the form of a notepad text document, and edit that, but the original one is still up on pastebin. I purposefully posted my voting reasons to that pastebin anonymously, without an account, so that no one, not even I, can edit it later.

    or even the original person editing the Doc later for the Sources list, debate and/or vote.
    1. If you want to post a debate after it's due and justify it inside a debate, you should post it here when/if you've posted it to the Docs so as to establish that you haven't further edited it since.
    To get around this, you can, after publishing your Google Doc, save it to https://web.archive.org/save so that it preserves it. That way, even if the original one does get edited or deleted later, you still have the original non-edited copy on the web archive, since web archive'd versions cannot be edited.

    This thread is to be used for source lists only in debates where it is agreed by both debaters that Character Count shouldn't restrict it.
    I appreciate your concern, but it's still far easier to just either upload it to Google Docs and then save it to web archive so you can link to that archived version without worrying about someone editing it, or put it to pastebin under an anonymous account so no one, not even you, can edit it.

    Since this forum in particular limits you to 5000 characters per post, that means that it's still gonna be too tedious to take, for instance, a 15000-character voting reason, split it into 3 parts (15000 / 3 = 5000) and then copy and paste them into 3 separate comments on a thread, since you can just copy and paste the entire 15000-character voting reason to Google Docs (with web archive) or Pastebin (with no account) and have everything visible at once. It's easier, and requires less time and effort.

    In most of my own debates, I usually try to back up my sources, as well as any Google Doc that I link to, to web archive, so that nobody needs to worry about anybody complaining that it was edited or whatever.
  • RationalMadman
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    And what if webarchive malfunctions or something at any point? What about the many who don't do that?
  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @Christen
    Copy your pastebin stuff to the comment section of the debate. You can simply have that there if your pastebin is removed or something. It will stay up as long as the debate so no 3rd party is going to impact your vote even though pastebin has been around longer.


  • Dr.Franklin
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    I do kinda like this though
  • RationalMadman
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    ty Franklin.

    Whether mods make it pinned or not, I will be using it for my sourcing in Oromagi's debate against me as a starting point. I will treat this official and encourage many to do so, so that we don't spam topic or other such forums with this stuff.
  • Christen
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    And what if webarchive malfunctions or something at any point?
    The only way I could see web archive malfunctioning is if either the owner of the site forgets to pay the necessary bills to keep the site running, or if some super-intelligent determined hacker brute forces their way into their heavily-secured servers... both of which are unlikely.

    Web archive "has an annual budget of $10 million," has it's base setup "in the Presidio of San Francisco, a former U.S. military base" according to this source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Archive

    So it has plenty of money to keep the site running, and is in a military base to be safe from intruders looking to break in.