Perspective

Author: keithprosser ,

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  • keithprosser
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    If you look at the night sky you might see Mars as a tiny red dot.   A small dot is what Earth looks like from Mars.   Go further out and the sun turns into one star amongst a billion otthers in our galaxy and Earth is invisible.   All that we care about - our wars and petty problems - are happening on something no more significant than the microscopic events on a single grain of sand in the Sahara.

    And even our entire galaxy is only one of a billion others.  Our insigificance in cosmic scales is beyond imagination.   I have no illusion of God's existence, but I think it is absurdly arrogant to suppose a god would have any concern for our trivial brief existence.

    Once - not long ago - we believed we were the centre of the universe, that we were the hub and focus of all there was.   A god's gaze would naturally fall on us, but in the cosmos we aren't at the centre of anything - except our own self-regard.


  • Stronn
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    --> @keithprosser
    Well said. You've touched on one of the primary reasons I don't buy most religions. They implicitly assume that we are somehow the point of the entire universe, when in fact we are an insignificant speck. Such hubris makes it glaringly obvious that they are inventions of men.
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @keithprosser
    It's funny people use the size and expanse of the universe to attempt to argue against a Creator. That's a strange position to take when in fact it should be the opposite, the fact such a vast grand scale universe exists should invoke the wonder and certainly the curiosity of God. Of course this is not my argument for God, but it's your argument against the Creator, so I'm only flipping it around. But tell me, how does the size of the universe make our experiences on planet earth insignificant to a Creator? can you explain how that would follow? what does size mean to an omnipresent reality in any way?
    You realize that galaxies and planets "out there" exist for the purpose of housing creatures right? no, no Keith it's not empty, at all. It may seem like that from our perspective not being able to reach and examine what is living in other galaxies but make no mistake about it, you are not alone lol. This too has no real bearing on our significance, all souls are unique and all souls come out of the heart of God, where they go, where they live, where they have their experiences is entirely irrelevant. Souls are unique in and of themselves and so they are all significant, doesn't matter if there's a billion miles of space between planets or not. Another non-sequitur TBH.
    My next question, why would you think that the creation of your soul has no significance to God simply due to where you are placed in our universe?
  • Stronn
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    It's not that the size and scope of the universe cause me to disbelieve in a God, it's that the size and scope of the universe makes me disbelieve in God as portrayed by most religions. Given the vastness of the universe, the idea that its creator takes special interest in our daily lives, that the entire thing was created with us in mind, strikes me as absurdly egocentric. I have no idea whether a God exists, and don't think anyone else does either.
  • janesix
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    --> @keithprosser
    Earth is not insignificant,and neither are it's life forms.
  • Mopac
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    "what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

    "Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance"

    "All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity."


    "I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit."


    The idea that people are the point of everything is not biblical, and cosmic insignificance is inherent in believing in God.

    God is easily able to account for the most insignificant things.






  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Stronn
    Given the vastness of the universe, the idea that its creator takes special interest in our daily lives, that the entire thing was created with us in mind, strikes me as absurdly egocentric.

    The universe wasn't created with just us in mind, it was created for ALL of us in mind to have experiences.....whether that be here or in some other galaxy or planet, why do you think God creates planets? The vast expanse of the universe is just a canvas, with unlimited potential, it's there but it means nothing in relation to your significance as an individual unique soul. If ANYTHING it's the soul itself that is significant, not the universe. The universe is marvelous, but the soul is significant and why not? it is an expression of the Creator, you have been afforded the highest level of consciousness within this realm so that you can enjoy this world as it is and see the wonder in it and know that you are indeed significant in such a vast reality and that's part of the point as well....that we look out in space and see just how incredible creation is.

    I can see how you would think its absurdly egocentric but you're judging it based on the fact you think no God exists, and do not see the significance in souls....and if that is not the case then I'll ask you the same question I asked Keith...why would you think that the creation of your soul has no significance to God simply due to where you are placed in our universe and the size of it?

    I have no idea whether a God exists, and don't think anyone else does either.

    And that would be why we are discussing Theistic topics and probably the reason it seems absurd to you. But that's just perspective, it's actually not absurd at all.  


  • Outplayz
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    --> @keithprosser
    I think you are referring to a theistic god... in which i would agree with you. If everything is the manifestation of intelligent design in one way or another is another story. As insignificant as we are compared to the universe, we are far from insignificant. Humans are proof that intelligence exists. Our intelligence might be limited, maybe non-existent in some... but, it is pretty amazing in what it is. I feel the implications of just intelligence being real compared to the grandness of our universe, and furthermore, the paradox of infinity that it seems we have as a platform... the implications of what intelligence has the potential to be is pretty crazy. I'm of the belief we aren't the first intelligence. Also, that intelligence has become an infinite force within our realities / universe. It's a guess of course bc no one can prove it, but i think there is sufficient evidence of an infinite consciousness. 

    If our reality is the result of infinite intelligence than every strand on our hair, every molecule, every particle, can be pieced together to create anything. I think you might have figured out from my other post... i can see a pantheistic, or variation of it, being the case. 
  • Stronn
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    --> @Mopac
    The idea that people are the point of everything is not biblical
    Yes it is. Right from the start, the Bible puts the Earth and humanity as the focus of creation. According to Genesis, God spent nearly all His time creating and populating the Earth. Billions of stars were thrown in almost as an afterthought at the end of day 4. And their purpose? To provide light for the Earth.

    If that is not egocentric, I don't know what is.
  • Mopac
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    --> @Stronn
    Who is making use of scripture? It is for people to use.

    The idea that people are the point of everything is not biblical. God is the point of everything.

  • keithprosser
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    --> @Mopac
    The OT isn't even interested in all people - only the Hebrews.  The nt is about how to get yourself into heaven.
  • ethang5
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    This is like ants in a ant farm insisting that the ant farm is vast.

    Do you really believe the universe is "vast" to God?

    People matter to God not because of size, but because they are His creation. And because He has said they matter.

  • Mopac
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    --> @keithprosser
    Yet, loving God and accepting God as Lord and Savior is universally a good and right thing to do, and that is the grand point.


    It is best for you, best for society, and best for the world. When people forsake God in favor of idols, that is when death and destruction follow.

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Stronn
    the Bible puts the Earth and humanity as the focus of creation.
    Well not necessarily (because it doesn't actually say that), but certainly the Bible's focus WOULD be this planet and humanity, otherwise what meaning would it have for those who inhabit it?? the text is supposed to apply to us, not another galaxy or planet but that doesn't mean humans are the only focus in the entire universe as there could be many galaxies that have inhabitants IMO, then there are the heaven realms beyond the physical.

    According to Genesis, God spent nearly all His time creating and populating the Earth.
    Again how do you deduce that? No txt says that and I don't see how it follows that God is not doing other things and other things within our universe.

    Billions of stars were thrown in almost as an afterthought at the end of day 4.
     I'm not a Genesis literalist so there's no reason for me to assume that God had/has no process of creating the universe and I have no reason to assume that stars aren't for other planets as well. Another conclusion that doesn't really follow.

    And their purpose? To provide light for the Earth.
    Provide light for the earth and any other planet that needs light.....as well as seed the entire universe, again no reason to believe humans are the only ones that occupy the universe or that God is not using stars for other planets. 

    If that is not egocentric, I don't know what is.
    The txt is referring to us because its' about us in the same way you'd want to learn about something that is relevant to your experience, that doesn't mean that the stars only purposes are JUST for earth alone, even if it were that's how God wanted it. However I don't need to make any extra assumptions when not necessary. In what way are you referring to "egocentric" anyways? because there's a difference in understanding that God did in fact create the universe for all forms of life but in no way does that equate to "without regard for the feelings or desires of others; self-centered." It's not our fault God created stars for planets, so that it would play a role in sustaining life. So who or what are you claiming is egocentric?


  • Stephen
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    --> @Stronn
     I don't buy most religions. They implicitly assume that we are somehow the point of the entire universe, when in fact we are an insignificant speck.


    I doubt very much any western religions believe we are "the point of the entire universe" any more. The vatican  admitted recently that we are "not alone". And common sense in general would have us all down as pig ignorant people if we still believed we were the only beings in the whole universe. 

    I can't speak for other religions, but those not forcibly held back from education and the sciences would, I am sure, in the 21st century , agree that we are not alone and or the central focus of the universe.
  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser
    The OT isn't even interested in all people - only the Hebrews.  

    and  Israelites.. Which is why I have never understood why  people try bringing the OT into the argument against Christians when discussing the barbarity of Islam. 
  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    --> @keithprosser
    I've a different " perspective " on this.
    See i have no trouble with a " thing " a god if you will creating universe upon universe times a lot more universes along with every single item in em. 
    I can fathom it , i can.  But to put it into " perspective 
    This thing that created this everything , the whole like allll. This I'd say can best be described as a God thing , well he also doesn't want boys kissing boys. Bammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm PERSPECTIVE perspective.


  • PGA2.0
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    --> @keithprosser
    KEITH: The OT isn't even interested in all people - only the Hebrews.  The nt is about how to get yourself into heaven.

    Both are covenant relationships that are concerned about a right relationship with God. The one foreshadows the other for the one is greater than the other.

    Peter

  • PGA2.0
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    --> @Stephen
    STEPHEN:  and  Israelites.. Which is why I have never understood why people try bringing the OT into the argument against Christians when discussing the barbarity of Islam. 

    The OT and NT are interconnected. The NT is the fulfillment of the OT. It provides a covenant that meets all the righteous requirements of God in one Person - the Lord Jesus Christ. It accomplishes what the OT is not capable of doing, restoring the relationship with God forever.

    Peter
  • Stephen
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    --> @PGA2.0
    The OT and NT are interconnected. The NT is the fulfillment of the OT. It provides a covenant that meets all the righteous requirements of God in one Person - the Lord Jesus Christ. It accomplishes what the OT is not capable of doing, restoring the relationship with God forever.
     If that be the case, then could you be kind enough to show where in the Old Testament is Jesus referred to as the Messiah and what his role will be as MESSIAH.

    And why did Jesus not want to reveal that he was the expected messiah.?.