the impeachment inquiry is a witch hunt

Author: n8nrgmi ,

Topic's posts

Posts in total: 225
  • n8nrgmi
    n8nrgmi avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,099
    3
    2
    3
    n8nrgmi avatar
    n8nrgmi
    the things trump did are not that serious. it's questionable whether what he did was even corrupt, let alone illegal. biden may have did some bad things related to ukraine, so trump asked them to investigate. what's the big deal? the usa and ukraine has a treaty where they are suppose to cooperate in investigations if they are willing and able. trump is the leader so it's not far fetched to ask them to look into it. per crimes, it's a stretch, and a gray area at best for democrats. so far all i can see is people say he sought something of value illegally per campaign finance laws, and other people say he was bribing ukraine by dangling aid money in front of them. if it doesn't look like a duck or quack like one, why should we say these are legal violations? and even if they were, they aren't that far fetched or unreasonable on trump's part. more like if they were illegal, democrats are unreasonably playing 'gotcha' in getting him on any far out thing they can. 

    how is what trump did such a big deal? 
  • Greyparrot
    Greyparrot avatar
    Debates: 2
    Forum posts: 10,306
    3
    3
    8
    Greyparrot avatar
    Greyparrot
    Cause Trump can't look into corruption. Only Pelosi can do that.
  • HistoryBuff
    HistoryBuff avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,209
    3
    3
    2
    HistoryBuff avatar
    HistoryBuff
    --> @n8nrgmi
    the things trump did are not that serious. it's questionable whether what he did was even corrupt, let alone illegal.
    No, it really isn't. It is a crime to ask for or receive a thing of value from any foreigner which will help you win an election. The moment trump said he needed the Ukrainian president to do him a favor by digging up dirt on Biden, he committed a crime. And given that the white house has released a partial transcript of the call, there is no doubt that he did that. He has all but confessed to committing the crime of which he is accused. 

    biden may have did some bad things related to ukraine, so trump asked them to investigate. what's the big deal?'
    The big deal is it is a crime. 

    the usa and ukraine has a treaty where they are suppose to cooperate in investigations if they are willing and able.
    And if trump wanted an official investigation he has legal paths to do that. He could ask the justice department to investigate or he could ask congress. Both have the power to investigate such things. What he can't do is ask a foreign government to dig up dirt on a political rival and then attempt to cover up that he asked them to. That's a crime. 

    trump is the leader so it's not far fetched to ask them to look into it.
    It isn't far fetched at all. it is a crime though. 

    if it doesn't look like a duck or quack like one, why should we say these are legal violations?
    It is an extremely clear cut case of a crime. Why would we say anything other than that it is a crime?


  • n8nrgmi
    n8nrgmi avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,099
    3
    2
    3
    n8nrgmi avatar
    n8nrgmi
    --> @HistoryBuff
    dont you think you're making something out of nothing?  he asked someone to investigate wrongdoing. how is this a big deal? 
  • n8nrgmi
    n8nrgmi avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,099
    3
    2
    3
    n8nrgmi avatar
    n8nrgmi
    --> @HistoryBuff
    so if biden asked ukraine to investigate trump's wrong doing, biden would be guilty of a crime? 
  • n8nrgmi
    n8nrgmi avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,099
    3
    2
    3
    n8nrgmi avatar
    n8nrgmi
    i think this will back fire on the democrats. the average joe will eventually see the lack of substance here, getting trump on trumped up charges. the democrats deserve to have it blow up in their face, i just dont want it to mean that trump wins again. if the democrats can't get past this and focus on the issues, though, trump just might win. 
  • n8nrgmi
    n8nrgmi avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,099
    3
    2
    3
    n8nrgmi avatar
    n8nrgmi
    i take one thing i said back. i think withholding aid money on condition of ukraine investigating is corrupt. i dont think it's illegal, or if it is, it insn't serious enough to warrant impeachment. 
  • n8nrgmi
    n8nrgmi avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,099
    3
    2
    3
    n8nrgmi avatar
    n8nrgmi
    --> @HistoryBuff
    so if you admit it isn't far fetched for trump to do what it did, but you just think it's illegal. would you agree that this isn't a 'high crime' per the threshold of impeachment? 
  • A-R-O-S-E
    A-R-O-S-E avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 682
    2
    2
    6
    A-R-O-S-E avatar
    A-R-O-S-E
    Trump's exact words: "The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me."


    Something he said about it: https://i.imgur.com/b7rGrHd.png
  • n8nrgmi
    n8nrgmi avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,099
    3
    2
    3
    n8nrgmi avatar
    n8nrgmi
    so trump specifically asked ukraine to cooperate with the attorney general? isn't that trump's job, to further the agenda of the justice department? 
  • HistoryBuff
    HistoryBuff avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,209
    3
    3
    2
    HistoryBuff avatar
    HistoryBuff
    --> @n8nrgmi
    so trump specifically asked ukraine to cooperate with the attorney general? isn't that trump's job, to further the agenda of the justice department?
    The attorney general is denying any knowledge of this and has denied he ever spoke to the Ukrainians. So, no. 

    If this was entirely above board and legal, they wouldn't have tried to hide it. It would never have been a secret in the 1st place. If trump had referred the issue to the justice department we wouldn't be having this conversation. He didn't. He used the power of his office to coerce a foriegn power to interfere in an election. 

    That is quite clearly a crime. He can, and almost certainly will, be impeached for it. 

  • Greyparrot
    Greyparrot avatar
    Debates: 2
    Forum posts: 10,306
    3
    3
    8
    Greyparrot avatar
    Greyparrot
    --> @n8nrgmi
    It's Trump's job to get cooperation with other national leaders to further the interests of the United States. Whether you think looking into Corruption involving Joe to the tune of billions of dollars is a national interest is up for interpretation.
  • HistoryBuff
    HistoryBuff avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,209
    3
    3
    2
    HistoryBuff avatar
    HistoryBuff
    --> @Greyparrot
    Whether you think looking into Corruption involving Joe to the tune of billions of dollars is a national interest is up for interpretation.
    If trump had pressed him to be tougher on corruption in general, that wouldn't be crime. The moment he pressed him to investigate Biden specifically, someone with a good chance of being the next person to run against him, trump committed a crime. 
  • Greyparrot
    Greyparrot avatar
    Debates: 2
    Forum posts: 10,306
    3
    3
    8
    Greyparrot avatar
    Greyparrot
    --> @HistoryBuff
    Like I said, only Pelosi is allowed to investigate corruption.

    Anyone but Orangemanbad.
  • HistoryBuff
    HistoryBuff avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,209
    3
    3
    2
    HistoryBuff avatar
    HistoryBuff
    --> @Greyparrot
    Like I said, only Pelosi is allowed to investigate corruption.
    No, only law enforcement agencies and congress are allowed to investigate corruption. Why is it unclear to you? Groups that have legal authority to do a thing, are in charge of that thing. Presidents are not allowed to pressure people to investigate their political opponents. 

    If trump wanted to act legally, he would have had the justice department investigate. He is in charge of them. he could easily have done that. He didn't. He chose to pressure a foreign leader into doing his dirty work, which is a crime. He has released a memo confirming he committed that crime. 
  • Greyparrot
    Greyparrot avatar
    Debates: 2
    Forum posts: 10,306
    3
    3
    8
    Greyparrot avatar
    Greyparrot
    --> @HistoryBuff
    Well, then Impeachment is illegal since Pelosi is doing it instead of officer friendly.
  • HistoryBuff
    HistoryBuff avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,209
    3
    3
    2
    HistoryBuff avatar
    HistoryBuff
    --> @Greyparrot
    Well, then Impeachment is illegal since Pelosi is doing it instead of officer friendly.
    I've lost count of how many times I have had to say this to you. What are you even talking about? The constitution is crystal clear that congress has the power to impeach the president. Since he has committed crimes and pretty clearly confessed to them, there is absolutely no reason why he wouldn't be impeached. 
  • Greyparrot
    Greyparrot avatar
    Debates: 2
    Forum posts: 10,306
    3
    3
    8
    Greyparrot avatar
    Greyparrot
    Lol but in banana republic world only Law officers can investigate corruption.
  • Greyparrot
    Greyparrot avatar
    Debates: 2
    Forum posts: 10,306
    3
    3
    8
    Greyparrot avatar
    Greyparrot
    If you want to be literal, Trump is the head of Law enforcement so only he can investigate corruption...hehe.
  • Greyparrot
    Greyparrot avatar
    Debates: 2
    Forum posts: 10,306
    3
    3
    8
    Greyparrot avatar
    Greyparrot
    Also, asking for information on corruption is not election interference.

    Election interference is way, way too broadly applied today and with a very biased brush, especially as it applies to information.

    It's being used as a tool to create a monopoly on information, which would doom democracy.
  • ResurgetExFavilla
    ResurgetExFavilla avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 556
    2
    2
    7
    ResurgetExFavilla avatar
    ResurgetExFavilla
    --> @HistoryBuff
    No, only law enforcement agencies and congress are allowed to investigate corruption. Why is it unclear to you? Groups that have legal authority to do a thing, are in charge of that thing. Presidents are not allowed to pressure people to investigate their political opponents. 
    The government of Ukraine is also capable of internally investigating corruption, which is what Trump asked them to do. The law enforcement agencies are also part of the executive branch, they work for the President, who is the Head of State and delegates powers to them through his Cabinet. This should have been covered in Civics 101, maybe this history buff skipped it.

    If trump wanted to act legally, he would have had the justice department investigate. He is in charge of them. he could easily have done that. He didn't. He chose to pressure a foreign leader into doing his dirty work, which is a crime. He has released a memo confirming he committed that crime. 
    When the crime takes place in a foreign country, it's typical to cooperate with foreign law enforcement. Do you think that the president is capable of dispatching the FBI to Kiev and just starting an investigation there with no help from their government? It's almost like he should get their Prime Minister to agree to cooperate in a joint investigation first... oh wait.
  • Greyparrot
    Greyparrot avatar
    Debates: 2
    Forum posts: 10,306
    3
    3
    8
    Greyparrot avatar
    Greyparrot
    The optics on this are so bad. Telling a President not to look into corruption because it hurts Biden's chances for election doesn't play well with independents, who are already against impeachment for political reasons.

    There is nothing illegal about looking into corruption and the quid pro quo is absolutely not conclusive enough for impeachment.
  • dustryder
    dustryder avatar
    Debates: 5
    Forum posts: 938
    3
    2
    4
    dustryder avatar
    dustryder
    --> @n8nrgmi
    so if you admit it isn't far fetched for trump to do what it did, but you just think it's illegal. would you agree that this isn't a 'high crime' per the threshold of impeachment? 
    The "high" part in "high crime" does not refer to the severity of the crime but the "high" office of the person who commits the crime. There's not really a set standard. But if one can be impeached for lying about a blowjob, I don't imagine the standard to be very high.


  • HistoryBuff
    HistoryBuff avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,209
    3
    3
    2
    HistoryBuff avatar
    HistoryBuff
    --> @Greyparrot
    Lol but in banana republic world only Law officers can investigate corruption.
    Are you even thinking about the things you write? Your argument is that it is somehow undemocratic for the justice system to be in charge of investigating crimes. That one of the foundational principles of democracy. 

    f you want to be literal, Trump is the head of Law enforcement so only he can investigate corruption...hehe.
    No, trump is the head of the justice department so he can order them to investigate. That would be totally normal and legal. Asking a foreign power to specifically target his political rivals is a crime. 

    Also, asking for information on corruption is not election interference.
    That would depend. Saying "you guys really need to do something about corruption in your country" would be fine. saying "you need to do us a favor" and then asking him to specifically target your rival most certainly is election interference. He wasn't asking them to look into corruption, we was asking them to look into Joe Biden. 

    doesn't play well with independents, who are already against impeachment for political reasons
    Impeachment already has majority support with everyone except republicans. People who aren't incredibly biased can see that Trump committed a crime. It isn't that hard considering he has released the evidence to prove it. 


  • HistoryBuff
    HistoryBuff avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,209
    3
    3
    2
    HistoryBuff avatar
    HistoryBuff
    --> @ResurgetExFavilla
    The government of Ukraine is also capable of internally investigating corruption
    Of course they are. And in fact they have already investigated and determined there was no crime committed by the Bidens. 

    The law enforcement agencies are also part of the executive branch, they work for the President, who is the Head of State and delegates powers to them through his Cabinet.
    Also correct. And if trump had asked them to investigate there would be no problem. Trump has the authority to ask law enforcement to investigate. He does not have the power to pressure a foreign government to investigate his rivals. The moment he did that, he committed a crime. 

    When the crime takes place in a foreign country, it's typical to cooperate with foreign law enforcement. Do you think that the president is capable of dispatching the FBI to Kiev and just starting an investigation there with no help from their government?
    Again, if this were what happened we wouldn't be having this conversation. Asking the ukranians to co-operate with an investigation by the FBI would have been fine. But Trump never asked the FBI to investigate. There is nothing to suggest that he was ever going to ask the FBI to investigate. There was no investigation for Ukraine to co-operate with. He just wanted to send Giuliani on a fishing expedition. So when trump asked them to dig up dirt on Biden, it was a crime.