Are nordic nations socialist? and if not to what extent are they Capitalist?

Author: billbatard ,

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  • billbatard
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    billbatard
    No society is pure capitalism or pure socialism none not even North Korea some where in that sad land some one is selling something on the black market at risk to life and limb , even in Hong Kong the state provides pensions and has a role in the health care system


    All societies are a combination of state and private . In the 60s France had a state sector bigger than present day china has and did very very well over a thirty year period with that model   https://eserve.org.uk/tmc/contem/trente1.htm Nordics are market based but they do have many Socialistic aspects http://mattbruenig.com/2017/07/28/nordic-socialism-is-realer-than-you-think/
  • Dr.Franklin
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    Dr.Franklin
    gingu gangu
  • Trent0405
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    --> @billbatard
    They are certainly more capitalist than socialist.
  • billbatard
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    if you want i can prove you wrong easily for exmple 1 in 3 workers in denmark and norway work for the state half the population is on some sort of benifit or subsidy taxes are incredibly high on the wealthy and  google co determination
  • bmdrocks21
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    I know that at least Sweden has privatized pension plans and school vouchers.

  • billbatard
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    so?Around 1 in 3 workers in Denmark and Norway are employed by the government.
  • billbatard
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    Around 1 in 3 workers in Denmark and Norway are employed by the government.
  • billbatard
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    This post was originally intended for the launch of the People’s Policy Project website. But as that is running behind schedule, I figure I will post it here.
    When policy commentators talk about the Nordic economies, they tend to focus on their comprehensive welfare states. And for good reason. Denmark, Finland, Norway, and Sweden are home to some of the most generous welfare systems in the world. Each has an efficient single-payer health care system, free college, long parental leave, heavily subsidized child care, and many other social benefits too numerous to list here.
    Social Expenditures as Percent of GDP (2016)19.3%19.3%25.1%25.1%27.1%27.1%28.7%28.7%30.8%30.8%USANorwaySwedenDenmarkFinland0%5%10%15%20%25%30%35%Source: OECD

    As marvelous as the Nordic welfare states are, the outsized attention they receive can sometimes lead commentators to the wrong conclusions about the peculiarities of Nordic economies. Jonathan Chait thinks the Nordic economies feature an “amped-up version of … neoliberalism” while an oddly large number of conservative and libertarian writers claim the Nordics are quasi-libertarian.
    The common thread to these mistaken conclusions, aside from the desire to deny that there are leftist success stories in the world, is the apparent belief that the only extraordinary part of Nordic economies are the welfare states. Except for their generous social benefits, everything else is properly capitalist and even more capitalist than the United States. Or so the argument goes.
    Labor Market
    But this is not true. In addition to their large welfare states and high tax levels, Nordic economies are also home to large public sectors, strong job protections, and labor markets governed by centralized union contracts.Around 1 in 3 workers in Denmark and Norway are employed by the government.
    Percent of Workers Employed by Government (2008)14.5%14.5%22.9%22.9%31.5%31.5%34.5%34.5%USAFinlandDenmarkNorway0%10%20%30%40%Source: OECD

    Protections against termination by employers are much stronger in the Nordic countries.
    Strictness of Employment Protection Index (2013)1.171.172.172.172.312.312.322.322.522.52USAFinlandNorwayDenmarkSweden00.511.522.53Source: OECD

    Centrally-bargained union contracts establish the work rules and pay scales for the vast majority of Nordic workers.

  • billbatard
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    This post was originally intended for the launch of the People’s Policy Project website. But as that is running behind schedule, I figure I will post it here.
    When policy commentators talk about the Nordic economies, they tend to focus on their comprehensive welfare states. And for good reason. Denmark, Finland, Norway, and Sweden are home to some of the most generous welfare systems in the world. Each has an efficient single-payer health care system, free college, long parental leave, heavily subsidized child care, and many other social benefits too numerous to list here.
    Social Expenditures as Percent of GDP (2016)19.3%19.3%25.1%25.1%27.1%27.1%28.7%28.7%30.8%30.8%USANorwaySwedenDenmarkFinland0%5%10%15%20%25%30%35%Source: OECD

    As marvelous as the Nordic welfare states are, the outsized attention they receive can sometimes lead commentators to the wrong conclusions about the peculiarities of Nordic economies. Jonathan Chait thinks the Nordic economies feature an “amped-up version of … neoliberalism” while an oddly large number of conservative and libertarian writers claim the Nordics are quasi-libertarian.
    The common thread to these mistaken conclusions, aside from the desire to deny that there are leftist success stories in the world, is the apparent belief that the only extraordinary part of Nordic economies are the welfare states. Except for their generous social benefits, everything else is properly capitalist and even more capitalist than the United States. Or so the argument goes.
    Labor Market
    But this is not true. In addition to their large welfare states and high tax levels, Nordic economies are also home to large public sectors, strong job protections, and labor markets governed by centralized union contracts.Around 1 in 3 workers in Denmark and Norway are employed by the government.
    Percent of Workers Employed by Government (2008)14.5%14.5%22.9%22.9%31.5%31.5%34.5%34.5%USAFinlandDenmarkNorway0%10%20%30%40%Source: OECD

    Protections against termination by employers are much stronger in the Nordic countries.
    Strictness of Employment Protection Index (2013)1.171.172.172.172.312.312.322.322.522.52USAFinlandNorwayDenmarkSweden00.511.522.53Source: OECD

    Centrally-bargained union contracts establish the work rules and pay scales for the vast majority of Nordic workers.
    Percent of Workers Covered by Union Contract (2013)11.9%11.9%70.0%70.0%84.0%84.0%89.0%89.0%93.0%93.0%USANorwayDenmarkSwedenFinland0%20%40%60%80%100%Source: ILO

    These labor market characteristics are hardly neoliberal or quasi-libertarian, at least if we stick to typical definitions of those terms. The neoliberal tendency, as exemplified most recently by France’s Emmanuel Macron, is to cut public sector jobsreduce job protections, and push for local rather than centralized labor agreements. For the US labor market to become more like the Nordics, it would have to move in the opposite direction on all of those fronts.

  • billbatard
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    State Ownership
    Even more interesting than Nordic labor market institutions is Nordic state ownership. Collective ownership over capital is the hallmark of that old-school socialism that is supposed to have been entirely discredited. And yet, such public ownership figures prominently in present-day Norway and Finland and has had a role in the other two Nordic countries as well, especially in Sweden where the government embarked upon a now-defunct plan to socialize the whole of Swedish industry into wage-earner funds just a few decades ago.The governments of Norway and Finland own financial assets equal to 330 percent and 130 percent of each country’s respective GDP. In the US, the same figure is just 26 percent.

  • billbatard
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    Much of this money is tied up in diversified wealth funds, which some would object to as not counting as real state ownership. I disagree with the claim that wealth funds are not really state ownership, but the observation that Nordic countries feature high levels of state ownership does not turn upon this quibble.
    State-owned enterprises (SOEs), defined as commercial enterprises in which the state has a controlling stake or large minority stake, are also far more prevalent in the Nordic countries. In 2012, the value of Norwegian SOEs was equal to 87.9 percent of the country’s GDP. For Finland, that figure was 52.3 percent. In the US, it was not even 1 percent.

  • bmdrocks21
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    1/3 workers work for the government. That means that 2/3 are employed by the private sector. What is your point? They are closer to socialism than us in some regards and more capitalistic in others.


  • billbatard
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  • bmdrocks21
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    Yeah, but according to the economic freedom index, Scandanavian countries have much freer markets.