Sanders might not win a SINGLE DELEGATE from 3 of the first 4 primaries

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  • Imabench
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    Quick crash course on Dem primaries: While GOP primaries occasionally utilized a 'Winner Take All' system as they did in 2016 that awards all delegates to whoever wins the state overall in a primary, Dem's always use a 'Proportional Allocation' system in primary contests. In this system, the number of delegates that are up for grabs for a state are divided among candidates based on how well they poll in the state during the time of the vote. If the top candidates get 28%, 22%, and 17% of the vote from voters, then they get 28%, 22%, and 17% of delegates in the state accordingly..... Both systems have advantages and disadvantages, but the key detail for Proportional Allocation is the cut-off line. After a certain percentage, any candidate who falls below that line and fails to get a certain percentage of the vote fails to qualify for ANY delegates, due to general irrelevancy. 

    Up to this point, I was under the assumption that the cutoff line for the Dem Primaries was around 10% at most due to the number of candidates in the field. It turns out though that the cutoff is at 15% https://www.270towin.com/content/thresholds-for-delegate-allocation-2020-democratic-primary-and-caucus

    This is a MASSIVE fucking problem for Sanders, and it considerably fucks Warren as well...... Warren and Biden can hit 15% in just about any state in their sleep, but Sanders on the other hand has struggled in many early contests to get past 15% based on polling. Of the first four primaries in the Dem presidential primary (Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina), Sanders only hits north of 15% in ONE of those states, and its not even the state you think it would be. 

    In Iowa, 3 polls had Sanders at an average of 12%, with one poll putting Sanders at 16% max, a hair above the 15% threshold needed to get delegates: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/ia/iowa_democratic_presidential_caucus-6731.html

    In New Hampshire, the two most recent polls indicate Sanders has hemorrhaged half of his entire support in the state to Warren, and is now down to about 11.5% support if both recent polls prove to be accurate: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/nh/new_hampshire_democratic_presidential_primary-6276.html

    In South Carolina, Sanders can barely hit 10% total, let alone 15%, making is almost assured he will walk out of the state empty-handed: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/sc/south_carolina_democratic_presidential_primary-6824.html

    Only in Nevada does Sanders poll north of the 15% threshold needed to win delegates within the state. Recent polls put him at 14% and 22%, with an earlier poll from a month ago having him near 29%... Regardless of where his support truly lies, its safe to assume its somewhere in the high teens above 15% for now: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/nv/nevada_democratic_presidential_caucus-6866.html

    -----

    Because you need 15% to win delegates in a Dem Primary, and because Sanders only regularly polls above 15% in Nevada due to the recent downslides he's suffering, it's quite possible that Sanders does not win a single delegate from 3 of the first 4 presidential primaries in the contest. 
    If he stays below 15% early on, it could effect his level of turnout later on, (Sanders supporters might begin to reconsider their support if it appears that Sanders cant even win delegates, let alone the entire primary, and flip their support elsewhere) but it could effect Warren in a massively negative fashion as well

    Prevailing belief up to this point, which included myself, was that if there was a contested nomination where no Dem candidate gets an outright majority, Sanders as the likely 3rd place finisher would choose to support Warren over Biden, and give her enough votes to make her the nominee. This assumption though was based off the idea that Sanders would have a good chunk of delegates he won from the primaries to transfer in the first place.... But because primary rules require a hefty 15% support in a state to win delegates though, Sanders may not have a large enough faction to swing a contested primary at the very end to begin with, or even get enough delegates to force a contested election and someone instead wins an outright majority. 

    That effects Warrens odds in the long term, Here's where it impacts Warren in the short term though.... Warren and Sanders share a lot of the same base, the more leftist wing of the democratic party. Up to this point, it was believed that any voters Sanders siphons away from Warren would cause her to lose delegates to Sanders. If they split enough of of the liberal wing, then Biden could walk away with the primary. That was the prevailing theory a lot of people bought into.

    But now, if Sanders isn't even GETTING delegates, then that means that left wing voters are not just splitting delegates between Warren and Sanders. Instead they're actively throwing away their votes since every vote in support of Sanders equates to zero delegates won because of the requirement is 15% to win delegates of a state. For every state primary where Sanders keeps left-wing voters from Warren, and also fails to hit 15%, thats free delegates that goes to Biden without him even having to do anything. Naturally, this MASSIVELY benefits Biden, because now delegates that could be won by Sanders or Warren are essentially disappearing into thin air, rather than being split between the candidates to possibly be combined later on. 




  • Imabench
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    Here's the thing..... It's not all doom and gloom as of right now. Sanders is doing fairly terrible in the early states, but he still hits 15% in other polls for somewhat important states.... https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/democratic_nomination_polls/

    While Bernie whiffs on three of the first four primaries, he has still stayed north of 15% in other states like Wisconsin (17%), California (21%), Ohio (27%), and North Carolina (20%). If his support doesn't collapse following his performance in the first 4 states, he could still do well enough to get delegates in later contests and keep his campaign relevant.... It is pure speculation though if Sanders will be able to maintain his support or lose it to other candidates though. While Sanders may arguably have the most loyal and stubborn base of supporters of any candidate, bad performances in the first primaries can ruin once promising candidates. 

    Regardless of what happens, whether it be his support bottoming out completely, holding still but failing to hit 15% at key moments (He polls 14.3% nationally), or some sort of middle ground between the two, the main takeaway from all this is that the 15% requirement rule is going to turbofuck Bernie in the early primaries, and have potential ripple effects on the rest of his campaign, barring a substantial turnaround before the primary states start voting. 

  • TheRealNihilist
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    Why are you surprised?

    I thought him pandering to far lefties would be worse for him because either he might not be far enough or moderates would be turned off by him or both.

    Warren is basically a more tame Bernie which I think is a good thing. I think Bernie had rent control as one of his housing bills or something so if Warren doesn't do it just for that one policy she is better.

    Bernie didn't even try to change himself instead allowed people like Warren and Harris to use his ideas and put their spin on it whereas Bernie stayed the same. 

    I don't personally like him because his rent control idea and his shite actions to the democratic party. Ragging on them and using them for his means without noticing he needs a team to enter the white house given the electoral college etc. Linkie (Wish I can find the link I liked more but this will do kind of).
  • HistoryBuff
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    I thought him pandering to far lefties would be worse for him because either he might not be far enough or moderates would be turned off by him or both.
    You do realize that his "far left" policies are very popular right? In fact they are so popular that centrist candidates have to pretend like they agree with them just avoid being completely ignored. 

    Bernie didn't even try to change himself instead allowed people like Warren and Harris to use his ideas and put their spin on it whereas Bernie stayed the same. 
    That is one of his biggest selling points. While other candidates will lie to you and tell you they believe X and then doing Y when elected. Bernie tells you what he thinks and then fights for it. Having a politician that can be trusted to do the things they say is critically important. For many people, having an authentic candidate is even more important than their specific policy ideas. 

    Ragging on them and using them for his means without noticing he needs a team to enter the white house given the electoral college etc
    Unfortunately, I couldn't read your linked article without a subscription. The democratic party is corrupt. They started moving to the right around the Clinton presidency. Alot of them are almost indistinguishable from republicans at this point. Their Neo-Liberal agenda has failed. The only reason they are still able to win elections is the choice is bad (dems) or worse (republicans). Bernie is trying to return the dems to their roots of being a party of the people and not a party for huge corporations. 

    You're right that he needs a team. And he gets that team, ironically, in the same way Trump did. He has to make those sellouts so afraid of their own base that they will actually do what their constituents want instead of what their billionaire donors want. Many of them will refuse and need to be primaried by non-corrupt candidates. But the democratic party needs to be reformed and Bernie is the guy to get it done. 
  • TheRealNihilist
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    You do realize that his "far left" policies are very popular right? 
    Do provide proof. I doubt you can. You are just biased.
    That is one of his biggest selling points. While other candidates will lie to you and tell you they believe X and then doing Y when elected. Bernie tells you what he thinks and then fights for it. Having a politician that can be trusted to do the things they say is critically important. For many people, having an authentic candidate is even more important than their specific policy ideas. 
    Authentic = not reinventing yourself?
    This is a reason why he isn't beating Biden and Warren steadily increased over time. 
    The democratic party is corrupt. They started moving to the right around the Clinton presidency.
    If you think Hillary is right you are definitely a far lefty. If it wasn't clear already given your cliche Bernie bro responses. I can't wait for the Bernie math you are going to use to say Bernie's policies are actually popular. 
    Alot of them are almost indistinguishable from republicans at this point.
    You don't know what you are talking about. The Democrats want a public option. The Republicans do not. This alone shows they are different. Please provide claims instead of stating generalities. You are just as bad as "classical liberals" who went right because the party was too far left. Both have bad arguments given the way you phrase things.
    Their Neo-Liberal agenda has failed.
    Example?
    The only reason they are still able to win elections is the choice is bad (dems) or worse (republicans).
    Clear persuasive rhetoric than actually leaving it out. Another way to interpret this is that the Democrats are better than the Republicans. There are only two options. For you to say the best option is the bad option is clearly showing your biases.
    Bernie is trying to return the dems to their roots of being a party of the people and not a party for huge corporations. 
    Roots? What time? Please do tell.
    You're right that he needs a team. And he gets that team, ironically, in the same way Trump did.
    So he would stoop down to Trump's level and still not have a chance at the election? I called that a failure.
    He has to make those sellouts so afraid of their own base that they will actually do what their constituents want instead of what their billionaire donors want.
    They must all be really scared at his non-existent lead.
    Many of them will refuse and need to be primaried by non-corrupt candidates. But the democratic party needs to be reformed and Bernie is the guy to get it done. 
    Bernie is failing and I think he will fail. If lets say Bernie drops out would you vote for Warren or Biden or would you abstain from voting? 
  • HistoryBuff
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    Do provide proof. I doubt you can. You are just biased.
    Medicare for all has polled at 70% support. It varies considerably in many cases if the question is framed in a right wing way. But it is still very popular as highlighted by the fact that most dem candidates have ripped it off. 

    Increasing taxes on the rich is also very popular. Here is a poll that shows 76% of voters want taxes on the wealthy increased. 

    Here is a poll showing 58% of voters support free college and eliminating tuition debt

    Here is polling showing that left leaning environmental policies are popular


    Authentic = not reinventing yourself? This is a reason why he isn't beating Biden and Warren steadily increased over time. 
    Authentic means telling people what you really think and really want. Bernie has been doing that for decades. How can you reinvent yourself if you have always been telling people what you really think. The reason other politicians can do that is because they just pretend they are someone else now. That is a bad thing. 

    The Democrats want a public option. The Republicans do not.
    That's a bit like saying the republicans want to cut off your leg with a chainsaw. The dems just want to cut off your foot. Both are bad, 1 is less bad. The republicans' plan is to let poor people die. The dems' plan is to only let some poor people die.

    Example?
    1) dems lost over 1,000 seats during Obama's tenure. He gave people hope that he would bring change. Then he failed miserably by only making small changes to a broken system.
    2) Trump. People elected trump because they wanted a change. Going back and forth between failed neo-cons and failed neo-libs was just making their lives worse. So they turned to an extreme answer. Going back to the neo-lib model will only make things worse. The dems need to learn from their failures.

    Another way to interpret this is that the Democrats are better than the Republicans. There are only two options. For you to say the best option is the bad option is clearly showing your biases.
    I don't disagree that dems are better than republicans. Republicans want to actively make poor people's lives worse. Dems just want to make rich people's lives better and don't particularly want to do much to help poor people. Neglect is better than active antagonism. 

    Roots? What time? Please do tell.
    FDR and the new deal

    So he would stoop down to Trump's level and still not have a chance at the election? I called that a failure.
    Your point is self defeating. The populist strategy worked. The message of fighting against the corruption of the current system is exactly what people want. Picking someone who revels in that corruption, like Biden, is the best chance dems have at giving trump a 2nd term. 

    They must all be really scared at his non-existent lead.
    They aren't scared yet. But if he wins they will be.

    Bernie is failing and I think he will fail. If lets say Bernie drops out would you vote for Warren or Biden or would you abstain from voting? 
    It is certainly possible that Sanders wont win. In that case Warren would be an acceptable 2nd choice. Biden would not be acceptable. Dems need to learn that Neo-liberalism is dead. 
  • Imabench
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    Why are you surprised?
    Well I figured that either Warren or Sanders would be setting themselves up to fail by one of them not being able to be the perceived representation of the far-liberal part of the party, I just didn't realize how badly that failure could actually be. If you cant win a single delegate in 3 of the first 4 primaries then shit, that candidate is no stronger than Booker or Castro or any of the candidates who arent Biden or Warren. 

    For Sanders to be at substantial risk of not winning a single delegate in 3 of the first 4 primaries after trailing Warren and Biden for a good chunk of the race, its the equivalent of going into the 4th quarter down 43 to 7, and then somehow losing points before the game ends. Like shit it didnt look good going in, but I didnt expect THIS kind of a faceplant. 
  • Greyparrot
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  • Greyparrot
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    I wish I laid some money out on Warren back in July when her price was so low....
  • HistoryBuff
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    Lol they have buttigieg valued higher than Sanders? That guy is just an empty suit. 
  • Greyparrot
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    Hillary might make a showing.
  • TheRealNihilist
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    Medicare for all has polled at 70% support. It varies considerably in many cases if the question is framed in a right wing way. But it is still very popular as highlighted by the fact that most dem candidates have ripped it off. 

    Present a poll for this. You did for others why can't you for this? I am not accepting this as a self-evidence.

    Increasing taxes on the rich is also very popular. Here is a poll that shows 76% of voters want taxes on the wealthy increased. 
    Are you saying this is a bernie position? This link is supporting Warren:
    "Politico found that 61% of Americans are in favor of a “wealth tax”proposed by Democrat presidential candidate Sen. Elizabeth Warren from Massachusetts, which would increase taxes on those with a net worth of $50 million or more. "

    Come back to me with a Bernie proposition supported with polling.

    Here is a poll showing 58% of voters support free college and eliminating tuition debt
    Looking at the poll:
    1,004 people were polled. Meaning the margin of error is 2% on either side. So the data can be read anywhere between 56% to 60% and/or 40% to 44%. 

    If we look at the breakdown of voters we see that 37% of Democrats were asked whereas there was 32% of Republicans asked.  

    From what I can gather this isn't exactly a popular idea. In this case 1,004 would much rather have free college and eliminate tuition debt but that is only about 58%. What I also didn't like about the poll is when they had 29% of independents voting. This is because realisitcally a Democrat or Republican will be in office later on. Meaning there vote is wasted if they do not vote for either side. If they did vote for either side that alone should be enough to state they are on either. That problem alone is a flaw in this because moderates do not win elections. It is the voters on either side in a swing state.
    Here is polling showing that left leaning environmental policies are popular
    "Shockingly, the idea was more popular than not, with 48 percent of respondents in support and 7 percent undecided. Only when pollsters told people that a Green New Deal could cost $93 trillion did support for the idea collapse. But according to the GOP group’s own math, a Green New Deal that focused only on climate change could cost only $13 trillion."

    Clear example of poisoning the well. State a good idea while leaving out the bad. This even makes clear when people are brought about how much it would cost they understand they would be the ones paying for it which is why the support collapsed. 

    "1. A national recycling program for commodities"

    The graph only states what people are for or not. It doesn't tell them how much it would cost to make it happen. It leaves out key data to reduce support.

    "2. $1.3 trillion to weatherize every home and office building in the United States"

    Yet again not telling them who is going to pay for it. More than likely it will come from taxes. Leaving out this detail is clearly sneaky making it seem the idea is more supported than it is.

    "3. $1.5 trillion for a massive federal build-out of renewable energy"

    "a large majority of voters said they were ready to foot the bill for the plan."

    Nothing in the graph stated anything about them paying for it. It only stated x amount of money will be spent for 10 years for y. It left out who was paying for it. This is clearly yet again sneaking in positions which can't gained by the chart.

    "4. A climate adjustment fee on environmentally destructive imports"

    This is actually tariffs. There is majority support that sanctions are a bad thing. I am guessing when Trump does it is bad but when Warren does it, it is good. 
    Here is a link to economists being against Trump's tariffs. Note the same arguments made here can be used for the same plan Warren wants.

    "5. “Economic Nationalism for Climate Change”"

    "Among white voters without a college degree, the idea was above water at 46 percent and an eight-point support gap."

    If you look at the graph. It is broken down by people with less then college degrees compared to people above that. This is making about things that are not in the graph itself. This is false and at worst fake news.

    Underneath those 5 ideas they rag about Bernie's less than popular plans which state the special word missing out in every single graph above it taxes. When people know they have to pay for something the support will drop. That was the problem with almost all the graphs above. The cost.


  • TheRealNihilist
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    Authentic means telling people what you really think and really want. Bernie has been doing that for decades. How can you reinvent yourself if you have always been telling people what you really think. The reason other politicians can do that is because they just pretend they are someone else now. That is a bad thing. 
    You are using a more charitable view. Things change and ideas must also change. If you want reform you do it by accepting current norms so that you can win and hopefully do what you wanted in the first place. What we have seen with Bernie is that his not accepting societal norms has lead to his downfall which can be seen to the polls. Bernie has pretty much lost the election because he stayed the way he was. This is bad if you want change and bad if you want to do anything in politics. Unless of course Bernie is a secret revolutionary waiting for the perfect time for a bloody revolution. Don't think so. Pretty much screwed himself the election.
    That's a bit like saying the republicans want to cut off your leg with a chainsaw. The dems just want to cut off your foot. Both are bad, 1 is less bad. The republicans' plan is to let poor people die. The dems' plan is to only let some poor people die.
    Again with this 1 equals less bad. You don't understand 1 is also the best. You are biased and you are showing that again. Even the example of the chainsaw and cutting is not the same when you are a family which needs helps right now. Are you going to go to a poor diabetic person and say look I can't exactly get what I want so I won't help you get someone like Biden in charge. You are pretty much saying you don't care about poor people you only care about your socialist fantasies. At that time the person could be dead and in an even worse position given these revolutions don't happen overnight. Thankfully poor people will vote for Biden because they understand what they need not something that they want like a socialist revolution. 
    1) dems lost over 1,000 seats during Obama's tenure. He gave people hope that he would bring change. Then he failed miserably by only making small changes to a broken system.
    How was this the fault of neo-liberalism?
    2) Trump. People elected trump because they wanted a change. Going back and forth between failed neo-cons and failed neo-libs was just making their lives worse. So they turned to an extreme answer. Going back to the neo-lib model will only make things worse. The dems need to learn from their failures.
    Same question above.
     Dems just want to make rich people's lives better and don't particularly want to do much to help poor people. Neglect is better than active antagonism. 
    False almost every top Democrats wants a form of public option. That alone will help the poor more than the rich because would have to pay more for a I think a less effective system but the poor would have to be pay less for a system they might not have access too.
    FDR and the new deal
    Why are you looking a snippet of history instead of the events around it? You are clearly missing the quality of life being better now. Clearly missing trans rights. Clearly missing out homosexuality wasn't even illegal. Why are you missing out the bad of FDR presidency and not realizing we live in a better time than we did in the past?
    The message of fighting against the corruption of the current system is exactly what people want. Picking someone who revels in that corruption, like Biden, is the best chance dems have at giving trump a 2nd term. 
    This doesn't demonstrate how my position is self-defeating. It just shows you don't accept the reality that a person like Bernie is losing and decreasing in the polls. Populism worked because of the economic point of view. Bernie does not offer that nor did Trump. Trump pretty much made empty promises whether it be the removal of corruption and bringing back jobs. Bernie can't even get the left on his side to win. Seems to me like populism only works if people actually believe the bs about the poor vs the rich.
    They aren't scared yet. But if he wins they will be.
    Lol. You still think he is going to win. That is a major if and if you actually think he has a chance with recent polling to look at please look at it again.
    It is certainly possible that Sanders wont win. In that case Warren would be an acceptable 2nd choice. Biden would not be acceptable. Dems need to learn that Neo-liberalism is dead. 
    That is why people like you don't understand how it works. You have to beat the system in order to enact change. Swing states are key to winning and if you abstain just because Biden is the nominee you have not only let Republicans win with that attitude you have also cost the lives of people who urgently need care. Biden wants the ACA. ACA is better than nothing. You do know that right? 


  • HistoryBuff
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    Things change and ideas must also change. If you want reform you do it by accepting current norms so that you can win and hopefully do what you wanted in the first place.
    why would you do that? The current "norms" were created by corrupt neo-libs. They will do anything to prevent those norms from changing. Why would anyone want to conform to a broken system in an attempt to fix the system? You will just end up corrupted by the system.

    Again with this 1 equals less bad. You don't understand 1 is also the best.
    The best of 2 bad options still isn't good. Why settle for less terrible, when you can have something actually good?

     Are you going to go to a poor diabetic person and say look I can't exactly get what I want so I won't help you get someone like Biden in charge.
    No, Biden's plan leaves millions of people uncovered. I'm saying why would you pick someone who wants to leave millions of people without healthcare when there are candidates that will cover everyone? You are arguing that a lesser evil is the best choice when there are good choices.

    How was this the fault of neo-liberalism?
    The neo-liberal policies put in place by dems failed. Dems promised to help people, then took actions that hurt them or at best did very little to help. This contributed to their significant political loses. 

    Same question above.
    More or less the same answer. The dems' neo-liberal policies helped to create the greatest income inequality in american history. The middle class got wiped out. People heard obama and believed things could get better. Then he failed to even try to bring about significant change and people lost hope. They turned to a lunatic demagogue who promised to fix the broken system and fight the corruption that is rampant in both parties. People voted for change when they voted for obama. He didn't deliver so they voted for change with Trump. Offer them change now or get a 2nd term of Trump. And no, biden is not change. He is more of the same.

    Lol. You still think he is going to win. That is a major if and if you actually think he has a chance with recent polling to look at please look at it again.
    Biden's support is soft. Warren's ability to look relateable is iffy. Warren is the most likely candidate to win at this point. But Sanders is certainly still in the running. 

    Why are you looking a snippet of history instead of the events around it? You are clearly missing the quality of life being better now. Clearly missing trans rights. Clearly missing out homosexuality wasn't even illegal. Why are you missing out the bad of FDR presidency and not realizing we live in a better time than we did in the past?
    Do we though? Undoubtedly certain things are better such as the examples you provided. Economically, most Americans are worse off. The constant attacks on unions and deregulation of corporations has lead to the economy being designed around making the rich as rich as possible. The middle class is a shadow of it's former self. it is a fantastic time to be in the upper or middle class, but the large majority of Americans aren't in those classes. i'm not suggesting that we go back to what they were doing back then. I'm saying we need a new populist leader to actually get things done to improve the lives of the people. Anyone who takes big checks from corporations isn't going to do that. 

    Bernie can't even get the left on his side to win.
    Are you kidding, the left is already winning. 4 years ago bernie's ideas were seen by most democrats as crazy and fringe. Now medicare for all is the baseline that every candidate is judged against. Bernie might not win the nomination, but he has reset the conversation in the Democratic party. The entire conversation has taken a huge jump to left.

    And to add to that, progressive challengers are lining up to take down the neo-lib establishment candidates. I had trouble finding a recent number, but last I heard there were over 100 primary challengers for democratic seats in the next election. A normal election cycle as 2 or 3. People like A.O.C has shown people that long standing neo-libs are vulnerable. I think we are likely to see either a general shift left in the democratic party as neo-libs get scared of their primary challengers and have to move, or we will see alot of neo-libs go the way of Joe Crowley. 

    Biden wants the ACA. ACA is better than nothing. You do know that right? 
    Of course it is, but it is nowhere near enough. Biden's plan lets poor people die. I am opposed to letting poor people die when it can be prevented. Am I willing to support someone who advocates for letting poor people die? no. 

    Sanders is the best choice, warren would also be acceptable. Virtually all of the rest of the field are basically more of the same candidates. 
  • Greyparrot
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    Am I willing to support someone who advocates for letting poor people die? no.
    Poor have been kept alive since 1986.

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    This site is insanely interesting. A surprisingly small amount of deaths are due to medical conditions among the 1-64 age group.
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    74.3% of 2017 deaths were age 65+
    yikes. Why doesn't medicare prevent these deaths?
  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @HistoryBuff
    The current "norms" were created by corrupt neo-libs.
    Who are the corrupt neo-libs and what did they do?
    Why would anyone want to conform to a broken system in an attempt to fix the system? You will just end up corrupted by the system.
    Your a revolutionist. I think you will be waiting a long time for anything like that to happen.
    The best of 2 bad options still isn't good. Why settle for less terrible, when you can have something actually good?
    When you have Biden/Warren vs Trump there is a better option. Do you understand that or are you on the side of abstaining on voting just because you don't get your socialist revolution?
    No, Biden's plan leaves millions of people uncovered.
    Lets say that is true. How many will be covered with Biden's ACA than the current one? 
    I'm saying why would you pick someone who wants to leave millions of people without healthcare when there are candidates that will cover everyone?
    I much rather have something than nothing. Is Bernie anywhere near beating Biden or Warren? No so what do you have against the ACA or I am guessing Warren's single payer healthcare?
    The neo-liberal policies put in place by dems failed. Dems promised to help people, then took actions that hurt them or at best did very little to help. This contributed to their significant political loses. 
    Define neo-liberalism.
    Show me a neo-liberal policy and show the impact of it.
    Biden's support is soft.
    He is beating Bernie so he his harder than the softy Bernie.
    Warren's ability to look relateable is iffy. Warren is the most likely candidate to win at this point.
    Which is what wins elections. It is a democracy. The most popular person wins if we go by states not people. Relatability is helpful in winning. 
    Economically, most Americans are worse off.
    False. Nothing compares to the internet. Not even talking about other advancements in medicine and convenience on top.
    The constant attacks on unions and deregulation of corporations has lead to the economy being designed around making the rich as rich as possible.
    Unions care about the interest of the unionists just as a business cares about their employees. Tell me difference if you can think of one.
    Deregulation is only bad if the negatives outweigh the positives. 
    The middle class is a shadow of it's former self.
    Yeah I know. Back in 1933 they didn't have the internet. I feel so sorry for them.
    I'm saying we need a new populist leader to actually get things done to improve the lives of the people. Anyone who takes big checks from corporations isn't going to do that. 
    Either you want a strand of communism or socialism you require rich people. They are required for the economy. 
    Are you kidding, the left is already winning. 
    You completely missed that I am talking about the left supporting Bernie. They don't. They support Warren and Biden over Bernie. 
    The entire conversation has taken a huge jump to left.
    Sure I can accept Bernie did have an impact on medicare being palatable. Too bad other party members do a better job at presenting it or using it to improve themselves in the polls.
    People like A.O.C has shown people that long standing neo-libs are vulnerable.
    AOC is awful. She is awful for the Democratic party. She endangers the swing states by her bad rhetoric in her comfy blue state. The election is won if either party wins swing states. I wish she can shut her mouth so that other members trying really hard to win Republican or tied states so that the Democrats have a chance of winning. Remember a Democrat is better than a Republican. If you want Republicans to win please tell her to rag on moderate Democrats so that they lose and you can guarantee another term with Trump but if you don't try and realize the problem the Justice Dems in winning elections. This is not even talking about how politically ineffective she is. Remember the Green New Deal? 
    I think we are likely to see either a general shift left in the democratic party as neo-libs get scared of their primary challengers and have to move, or we will see alot of neo-libs go the way of Joe Crowley.

    When you talk about semantics or who is part of the socialist revolution or not, the Republicans are agreed on what they are going to do. That is the problem. You and people like Bernie, AOC fracture the left making it more lean to an independent vote or a Republican one. This is politically ineffective even if you wanted a socialist revolution.
    Biden's plan lets poor people die. I am opposed to letting poor people die when it can be prevented. Am I willing to support someone who advocates for letting poor people die? no. 
    Does Biden go into their homes and shoot them or something? No so stop with the outrageous claims. Please demonstrate how Biden kills people. Do you need the definition? I'll go by your definition. Every single time Bernie opens his mouth about an unpopular take instead of passing laws or trying to win the election people are dying. Instead of winning during 2016 he lost and that lead to Trump. Bernie can be blamed by that if we go by your ridiculous standard.

    Sanders is the best choice, warren would also be acceptable. Virtually all of the rest of the field are basically more of the same candidates. 
    Okay.

    Note that you also pretty much didn't even bother to challenge my criticisms of Bernie being popular.
  • HistoryBuff
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    Who are the corrupt neo-libs and what did they do?
    Most of the democratic party. They sold out to their millionaire donors and stopped doing what was best for their constituents and started doing what was best their donors. 

    Your a revolutionist. I think you will be waiting a long time for anything like that to happen.
    That's not a revolution, that is reform. And the pressure that makes that reform necessary is already there. Trump is not the cause of america's problems. He is the symptom. The failed policies of the dems, and the intentional policies of the republicans, have caused a large percentage of the american population out of the middle class and are creating more and more people who can't afford to live. They don't all agree on how to solve the problem, but they all know there are serious problems. Trump should have been a massive warning sign. If someone like that can beat a "centrist" candidate like hilary then you should know there is a serious problem. Running a candidate like Biden, who is to the right of hilary on some issues, is crazy and stupid. 

    When you have Biden/Warren vs Trump there is a better option. Do you understand that or are you on the side of abstaining on voting just because you don't get your socialist revolution?
    As I said, warren would be an acceptable choice, biden would not. The dems need reform. Biden is worse than hilary. If that is the candidate they push through, then they have learned nothing from their mistakes. 

    He is beating Bernie so he his harder than the softy Bernie.
    Bernie's supporters are energized. They would walk through fire to vote for him. Biden's supporters are not. They don't particularly like him or the things he says. They support him because they think he can win, or he was VP to a black president, or because they are afraid of change. That is soft support. Those are voters that would change their mind if Biden no longer looks like he can win. 

    Which is what wins elections. It is a democracy. The most popular person wins if we go by states not people. Relatability is helpful in winning. 
    my point was that she has trouble looking relatable. Her cringey "i think i'll get a beer", her pretending to be native, her lying about getting fired for being pregnant etc. She is Harvard professor and she acts like it. She has trouble being relatable because she has to fake much of it. 

    You completely missed that I am talking about the left supporting Bernie. They don't. They support Warren and Biden over Bernie. 
    many on the left support warren that is true. Virtually no one on the left supports Biden. Biden's ideas are right leaning. If someone likes Biden's ideas, they aren't left wing or they don't understand Biden's ideas/history.

    Sure I can accept Bernie did have an impact on medicare being palatable. Too bad other party members do a better job at presenting it or using it to improve themselves in the polls.
    But that means he has already won. Even if he doesn't become president, his ideas have taken over. He has changed the landscape of his party. Very few people can say that. Not all presidents can say that. 

    AOC is awful. She is awful for the Democratic party.
    Are you kidding? She, and people like her, are the future of the democratic party. 

    The election is won if either party wins swing states. I wish she can shut her mouth so that other members trying really hard to win Republican or tied states so that the Democrats have a chance of winning.
    This is part of the failed ideology. Basically what you are saying is that the only way to beat the republicans is pretend to be them. You have to have "moderate" (right wing) democrats to win. But that isn't true. Do you think trump is actually right wing? He's not. He didn't win because is a republican, he wont because he could see the problems and wanted to address them. You don't win by going right, you win by convincing people they are better off with medicare for all. Once people realize that they don't have to go bankrupt to get medical care, the republicans will not be able to compete with that.

    the Republicans are agreed on what they are going to do.
    No they're not. They agree on parts of it. But they wildly differ on lots of issues. 

    You and people like Bernie, AOC fracture the left making it more lean to an independent vote or a Republican one. 
    No, people like bernie and AOC are redefining what left means. People like the clintons have been so far right for so long that people started thinking that was the center. so even moderately left candidates seem crazy. 

    Does Biden go into their homes and shoot them or something? No so stop with the outrageous claims.
    He is actively working to stop all poor people from getting health care. That is an immutable fact.

     Instead of winning during 2016 he lost and that lead to Trump.
    Seriously? Hilary lost because she was a terrible right wing candidate no one really wanted. It is right wing policies that keep costing dems elections. 

    Note that you also pretty much didn't even bother to challenge my criticisms of Bernie being popular.
    The head to heads of bernie vs trump show him winning by the 2nd highest margin. Clearly he is popular. There are just alot of people who are afraid that he isn't "electable" because news outlets won't stop saying it, so they park their vote with someone they perceive as having a better chance of winning. 
  • TheRealNihilist
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    Most of the democratic party. They sold out to their millionaire donors and stopped doing what was best for their constituents and started doing what was best their donors. 
    Name one person. A specific action and also define a neo-liberal.
    That's not a revolution, that is reform.
    Okay. What would you do if it was Biden vs Trump? Specifically about voting.
    Running a candidate like Biden, who is to the right of hilary on some issues, is crazy and stupid. 
    Pretty much every single poll has Biden winning against Trump.
    As I said, warren would be an acceptable choice, biden would not. The dems need reform. Biden is worse than hilary. If that is the candidate they push through, then they have learned nothing from their mistakes. 
    Would you vote for Biden if it was him against Trump?
    Bernie's supporters are energized
    If energized you mean steadily decreasing then you are correct.
    They would walk through fire to vote for him. Biden's supporters are not. They don't particularly like him or the things he says. They support him because they think he can win, or he was VP to a black president, or because they are afraid of change. That is soft support. Those are voters that would change their mind if Biden no longer looks like he can win. 
    Can't even be bothered to speak about fantasy.
    my point was that she has trouble looking relatable. Her cringey "i think i'll get a beer", her pretending to be native, her lying about getting fired for being pregnant etc. She is Harvard professor and she acts like it. She has trouble being relatable because she has to fake much of it. 
    More fantasy. Looking at the link above ("steadily increasing" one) she is steadily increasing. Your fantasy doesn't align with reality where she has surpassed Biden.
    Virtually no one on the left supports Biden.
    Either you are ignorant or you are intentionally ignorant. Biden is left. Just not left enough for you. Please don't ask others to conform to your socialist worldview. ACA as a policy makes you a left winger because it closely aligns with the left than it ever did with the right.
    Biden's ideas are right leaning. If someone likes Biden's ideas, they aren't left wing or they don't understand Biden's ideas/history.
    ACA. Heard of that? I am guessing you haven't. It is a public option. That is a left leaning policy. Come back to me when a right winger wants a public options as well.
    But that means he has already won. Even if he doesn't become president, his ideas have taken over. He has changed the landscape of his party. Very few people can say that. Not all presidents can say that. 
    Trump changed the party by getting almost everyone supporting him. Obama changed the country with the ACA. Every single president has changed something. Don't leave out that just so Bernie looks better than he is. He is an old man who might even pull out for medical reasons given his heart attack.
    Are you kidding? She, and people like her, are the future of the democratic party. 
    She is a disgrace to the Democratic and only hinders their efforts in regaining public control.
    Basically what you are saying is that the only way to beat the republicans is pretend to be them.
    If that means winning elections then yes. Purity tests don't win elections. Please do that in the comfort of your own home with AOC while every single other person advocates to win the election then reform it when in charge not cry about it when they have no power to make things happen.
    Do you think trump is actually right wing? He's not.
    His conspiracy theories about Obama. His reduction in taxes. Removal of the ACA. Right wing enough for me but for some reason Biden is right wing but Trump isn't? Okay guess this is HistoryBuff's worldview not a socialist one.
    You don't win by going right, you win by convincing people they are better off with medicare for all. Once people realize that they don't have to go bankrupt to get medical care, the republicans will not be able to compete with that.
    Bernie has said this but as you can see from polls he is steadily decreasing. Your fantasy doesn't align with reality.
    No they're not. They agree on parts of it. But they wildly differ on lots of issues
    False unless you have polling data that includes Trump.
    87% of Republicans approve of what Trump has done. The facts are on my side.

  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @HistoryBuff
    No, people like bernie and AOC are redefining what left means.
    AOC is economically incapable so if she is changing people she is making them stupid. Bernie did good but also demonstrated vitriol to the Democratic party that does cost them elections. Do you want Republicans to win or something?
    People like the clintons have been so far right for so long that people started thinking that was the center. so even moderately left candidates seem crazy. 
    Your biased if you think this way. She isn't "so far right" she is a left winger which is why she was a Democrat not a Republican.
    He is actively working to stop all poor people from getting health care. That is an immutable fact.
    Moving the goalpost from:
    Biden's plan lets poor people die.
    Instead of actually defending your point you instead make a more defensible point. Why did you change what you said and tell me how he is actively stopping people from getting healthcare. Make sure I can't make the same argument against Bernie. 
    Seriously? Hilary lost because she was a terrible right wing candidate no one really wanted. It is right wing policies that keep costing dems elections. 
    Lets say I agree. Who did Hillary beat again? Bernie. 
    I don't agree. Hillary is not a right wing to any normal standard. She wanted ACA or better. Please instead of stating outrageous claims take the time to actually support your idea with evidence. 
    The head to heads of bernie vs trump show him winning by the 2nd highest margin. Clearly he is popular. There are just alot of people who are afraid that he isn't "electable" because news outlets won't stop saying it, so they park their vote with someone they perceive as having a better chance of winning. 
    You are not even addressing my complaints. I am getting from this you can't actually defend your points instead resort to pivoting to other things in hopes I don't have a good enough counter. You have basically shown your best point of Bernie being popular is indefensible so you have resorted to weaker positions.
    Show me evidence that he has the 2nd highest margin if he wins and who is first? I am guessing Biden. 

  • HistoryBuff
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    These replies are getting way too long. 

    Pretty much every single poll has Biden winning against Trump.
    Biden has never set foot on stage with Trump. Biden is also pretty quiet about what he really believes. So alot of that support is basically generic democrat vs Trump. If biden won the nomination and had to compete against Trump he would get torn apart. Biden has decades of bad votes and support of bad policies for trump to drag him through the mud with. 

    If energized you mean steadily decreasing then you are correct.
    Some of them have moved to warren because they think she might be more electable. That wont save Biden though. 

    Either you are ignorant or you are intentionally ignorant. Biden is left. Just not left enough for you. Please don't ask others to conform to your socialist worldview. ACA as a policy makes you a left winger because it closely aligns with the left than it ever did with the right.
    You're kidding right? the ACA was originally a plan by a right wing think tank (the heritage foundation). It was a way to keep less poor people from dying but still keep all the profits in private companies' hands. It is not a left wing plan, it is a right wing one that people tried to spin as left wing. 

    ACA. Heard of that? I am guessing you haven't.
    As i said, the ACA is a right wing plan. 

    If that means winning elections then yes. Purity tests don't win elections.
    So to beat evil, you have to be evil? What is the point of getting a democrat elected if they are just going to be right wing anyway? The path to winning is by convincing people that left leaning ideas are the right ones, not by moving the democratic party to the right. 

    His conspiracy theories about Obama. His reduction in taxes. Removal of the ACA. Right wing enough for me but for some reason Biden is right wing but Trump isn't? Okay guess this is HistoryBuff's worldview not a socialist one.
    I don't deny that he went along with alot of what the right wing people wanted. But Trump was a democrat a few years ago, he doesn't actually believe in anything except money and fame. But someone with 0 values at all was still able to beat hilary. 

    Bernie has said this but as you can see from polls he is steadily decreasing. Your fantasy doesn't align with reality.
    And do you know who is now in the lead? Warren, another progressive. You say sanders isn't winning so left wing ideas must be wrong. But a solid chunk of Warren's campaign are Sanders' ideas. 

    Moving the goalpost from:
    Those 2 sentences mean the same thing. Biden's plan will still keep millions of poor people from getting heathcare. because of that, many people will die. Bernie's plan means everyone gets healthcare. No one needs to die because they can't afford healthcare. Ergo, Biden is planning to let poor people die and bernie's is not. 

    You are not even addressing my complaints. 
    What complaints?

    Show me evidence that he has the 2nd highest margin if he wins and who is first?
    Biden still has a very slight lead. but they are all in a statistical tie. 
    This is the IBD/TIPP for october 7th 
    Biden 51, Trump 44
    Warren 48, Trump 46
    Sanders 49, Trump 45

  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @HistoryBuff
    Biden has never set foot on stage with Trump. Biden is also pretty quiet about what he really believes. So alot of that support is basically generic democrat vs Trump. If biden won the nomination and had to compete against Trump he would get torn apart. Biden has decades of bad votes and support of bad policies for trump to drag him through the mud with. 

    More fantasy or to put into terms you understand trying so hard to put Biden in a bad light while not acknowledging the problems of Bernie. Are you incapable in knowing the flaws of your favorite?
    Some of them have moved to warren because they think she might be more electable. That wont save Biden though. 
    What does that have to do with Bernie losing?
    You're kidding right? the ACA was originally a plan by a right wing think tank (the heritage foundation)
    Are you actually going to make that argument? Originally back in 1828 the Democrats were against education reform. Why are Democrats do going back against what was the original party? Realize how nonsensical it is to compare how something starts to its impacts. 
    As i said, the ACA is a right wing plan. 
    No it isn't. A public option is left wing. Do you not comprehend that?
    So to beat evil, you have to be evil? What is the point of getting a democrat elected if they are just going to be right wing anyway?
    If left wing ideas were so unpopular Warren or Biden wouldn't be getting the support they have but they do. They are not busy not accepting fundraisers and accepting your other purity tests to make actual change happen not like Bernie over there who is steadily decreasing in the polls.
    The path to winning is by convincing people that left leaning ideas are the right ones, not by moving the democratic party to the right. 
    The path to winning is winning swing states. Do you even know how to win? You don't win by telling as much people your ideas. You win by having them vote for you. 
    But Trump was a democrat a few years ago, he doesn't actually believe in anything except money and fame.
    Warren was a Republican. What is your point? Are you going to selectively pick out things from people's past even though there is more current data of they have done. Trump isn't a Democrat. He is a Republican. Is that not clear to you? I have already given countless examples without you giving a single one to say he is a Democrat.
    But someone with 0 values at all was still able to beat hilary. 
    I get it you have a hate-boner for Hillary. The thing I don't get is that how you can't even back anything up.
    And do you know who is now in the lead? Warren, another progressive. You say sanders isn't winning so left wing ideas must be wrong. But a solid chunk of Warren's campaign are Sanders' ideas. 
    It is called taking the good ideas and leaving out the bad. That is what people should do. Bernie doesn't realize how bad rent control is.
    Biden's plan will still keep millions of poor people from getting heathcare. because of that, many people will die. Bernie's plan means everyone gets healthcare. No one needs to die because they can't afford healthcare. Ergo, Biden is planning to let poor people die and bernie's is not. 
    More like instead of Bernie being more palatable he is let a lot of people die because of his purity tests he has allowed a person like Trump to win and remove the ACA. The only form of public option. Bernie is more at fault with this then a hypothetical event that Biden's plan doesn't help x amount of people. Even if I grant you that it would have helped much more than Bernie which didn't even get elected to do anything. 
    What complaints?
    The polling I made points against. You defending your views on Hillary. You defending your views on neo-liberalism. You defending Bernie is popular. You defending Biden and Hillary are right wing. You defending AOC being good at anything. There is more but lets keep with that. 
    Biden still has a very slight lead. but they are all in a statistical tie. 
    This is the IBD/TIPP for october 7th 
    Biden 51, Trump 44
    Warren 48, Trump 46
    Sanders 49, Trump 45

    Missing out the poll data that has Bernie the Democratic front-runner spot so he doesn't even matter. 
  • HistoryBuff
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    More fantasy or to put into terms you understand trying so hard to put Biden in a bad light while not acknowledging the problems of Bernie. Are you incapable in knowing the flaws of your favorite?
    Which flaws specifically? Are you unable to see the massive flaws of Biden?

    Are you actually going to make that argument? Originally back in 1828 the Democrats were against education reform.
    An excellent example of reductio ad absurdum. Obama uses a plan that was thought up by the right wing a few year before. clearly that is exactly the same as going back almost 200 years. 

    No it isn't. A public option is left wing. Do you not comprehend that?
    It was a plan to make a small change to sand off some of the roughest edges of a broken system. A right wing think tank came up with the idea to protect corporate profits. It is not a left wing plan. 

    If left wing ideas were so unpopular Warren or Biden wouldn't be getting the support they have but they do.
    1) Biden isn't left wing. His support mostly comes from the right wing of the democratic party, rich people, and people who just like him because he was Obama's VP. 
    2) warren is using left wing plans. Whether or not she will carry through with them remains to be seen. 

    They are not busy not accepting fundraisers and accepting your other purity tests to make actual change happen not like Bernie over there who is steadily decreasing in the polls.
    Warren isn't taking corporate donations. Biden is spending all his time sucking up to millionaires telling them that nothing will change if he is elected. That is not a selling point for Biden. It is one of his massive handicaps. 

    I get it you have a hate-boner for Hillary. The thing I don't get is that how you can't even back anything up.
    Which part of that statement are you saying I can't back up? Are you saying trump does have moral values, or that hilary didn't lose? I'm pretty sure I can back up both of those statements.

    More like instead of Bernie being more palatable he is let a lot of people die because of his purity tests he has allowed a person like Trump to win and remove the ACA.
    Do you actually believe that? You think that hilary being an unlikable candidate that few wanted to vote for was Bernie's fault? She was a right wing democrat. If democrats want to win they need a candidate that actually appeals to their own party instead of trying to pick one that will appeal to republicans that would never vote for them anyway. 

    The polling I made points against.
    Lets look at favorability polling then. Here are the favorability polls for Bernie and Biden. Bernie's spread is about +20 in recent polls. Biden's is about 0. Just because people are willing to park their vote with someone they think can win, doesn't mean they like them or agree with their policies.

    You defending Biden and Hillary are right wing.
    They defend and push for terrible trade policies. they supported stupid, aggressive foreign wars. Hilary co-sponsored a bill to criminalize flag burning which is part of her right wing jingoism. Biden's 1994 tough on crime bill. Support for the death penalty. 

    I will acknowledge that researching this list made me see she is not as right as I had thought. She does support some moderately progressive things. She was still a very unlikable candidate though. 
  • TheRealNihilist
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    Which flaws specifically? Are you unable to see the massive flaws of Biden?
    Bernie says dumb shite. Don't think he would be good for foreign relations. 
    Bernie thinks rent control is a good idea. Bernie also states outrageous budgets for his policies.
    An excellent example of reductio ad absurdum. Obama uses a plan that was thought up by the right wing a few year before. clearly that is exactly the same as going back almost 200 years. 
    You didn't even demonstrate how it is was reductio ad absurdum. Your argument was x originally was Republican therefore it can't be a Democrat idea or something left wing. I use the same argument that you used and you didn't even understand it. 
    How is the ACA right wing when it is a public option? You still have answered this. You are moving from the points like you have done so many time before.
    It was a plan to make a small change to sand off some of the roughest edges of a broken system. A right wing think tank came up with the idea to protect corporate profits. It is not a left wing plan. 
    So a public option is not left wing?
    Is capitalism right wing as well?
    Answer the questions.
    1) Biden isn't left wing. His support mostly comes from the right wing of the democratic party, rich people, and people who just like him because he was Obama's VP. 
    Data.
    2) warren is using left wing plans. Whether or not she will carry through with them remains to be seen. 
    Bernie is using left wing plans as well. Please argue against what I said.
    Warren isn't taking corporate donations.
    This was about fundraising. Do you have a hate-boner for capitalism as well? It wouldn't be surprising.
    Biden is spending all his time sucking up to millionaires telling them that nothing will change if he is elected. That is not a selling point for Biden. It is one of his massive handicaps. 
    Data and tell my why I should care about your purity tests when winning the election matters more?
    Which part of that statement are you saying I can't back up?
    Tell me how Hillary has 0 values.
    Do you actually believe that? You think that hilary being an unlikable candidate that few wanted to vote for was Bernie's fault?
    Bernie lost to Hillary. This can mean she is more likable. If Bernie was more likable he could've been the front-runner.
    She was a right wing democrat.
    Evidence? Not a single thing you have supported with evidence. You are basically a talk show host afraid to know about reality instead talk about a complex universe you have.
    If democrats want to win they need a candidate that actually appeals to their own party instead of trying to pick one that will appeal to republicans that would never vote for them anyway. 
    Tell me the Democratic roots. Back when the party started or are you using some arbitrary starting point so that your socialist worldview looks better.
    Lets look at favorability polling then. Here are the favorability polls for Bernie and Biden. Bernie's spread is about +20 in recent polls. Biden's is about 0. Just because people are willing to park their vote with someone they think can win, doesn't mean they like them or agree with their policies.
    Your polling doesn't matter just like your purity tests. Votes matter not about who likes who.
    They defend and push for terrible trade policies.
    Trade policies are anti-protectionism which is a good thing. Given socialist and far right wingers are protectionists trade policies approval can be on either side but I still think it resides with the left. Here is the link to state why free trade is much better than protectionism. 
    they supported stupid, aggressive foreign wars.
    Doesn't make them right wing.
    Hilary co-sponsored a bill to criminalize flag burning which is part of her right wing jingoism.
    This was in 2005. This wasn't leading up to the election. Stop cherrypicking data to suit your narrative instead make a good faith effort in taking their most recent ideas and have an objection to that.
    Biden's 1994 tough on crime bill. Support for the death penalty. 
    This is not even in the 21st Century. Please come back to me with a proposal that he has done. I don't care about your purity tests of an all-good Jesus straight from the day they were born. I care more about what a person wants to do now.
    I will acknowledge that researching this list made me see she is not as right as I had thought.
    Now you understand how I feel where you point out outrageous claims I guess you got from left wing ideologues like Kyle Kulinski, Michael Brooks, Sam Seder or JImmy Dore.
    She does support some moderately progressive things. She was still a very unlikable candidate though. 
    Well thank you for acknowledging people change and what happens a decade ago isn't a representation of them now or at the very least unfair to criticize when they haven't tried to implement that currently.