Ironically, I agree with Trump on the Syria move

Author: Imabench ,

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  • Imabench
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    For those who dont know, Trump recently announced a withdrawal of US troops from northern Syria as part of an agreement where Turkish forces to the north will swoop in and handle the areas themselves. This would most negatively impact the Kurds, a religious minority located in Northern Iraq and parts of neighboring countries along the northern Iraqi border, who have long been the subject of persecution and attacks by Turkish forces. The fact that Turkey has grown far more authoritarian over a very short period of time also does not bode well for the well being of the Kurds, who played a key role in rolling back ISIS out of Iraq since Iraqi forces themselves are laughably inept. 

    Basically, the pull out out of Syria leaves maybe the one decent ally the US has in the Middle East at the complete mercy of a corrupt authoritarian regime after they did us a massive favor in beating the shit out of ISIS for us while we relied on drone warfare. 

    Democrats and Republicans alike have condemned the move, even Pentagon officials commented that they were not consulted about the decision before Trump went ahead with it, but I am in favor of the move... My personal belief is that the Middle East is an overall shitshow where a complete withdrawal from the region would be in the US's best interest. No country in the Middle East is worth allying with at the moment and havent been for at least 10 to 20 years now, either because of instability, inherent corruption, or both. 

    - Egypt at one point was governed by the Muslim Brotherhood and is now basically under military occupation after multiple regime changes made by force took place all within this decade. 
    - Syria has triggered the biggest migration crisis in the world and is ruled by a man who has used chemical weapons against his own people and is being propped up by Iran and Russia
    - Yemen is in the middle of a Civil War themselves as part of a proxy war being fought between the Saudis and Iranians
    - Iran is funding factions in Syria and Yemen that have intensified ongoing conflicts there already, as well as funding hyper religious groups like Hezbollah actively attempting to destabilize Israel and other countries in the region
    - Saudi Arabia is an oppressive oil kingdom that is using its military might to bend neighboring countries to their own will rather than being a stabilizing force in the region. 
    - Israel is ruled by a religious fundamentalist who has been itching to go to war with Iran for a decade now while repeatedly trampling the rights of Muslims within the country to turn Israel into a truly Jewish state, all while spying on the US at rates that almost rival China. 
    -  Qatar is using its wealth based off of natural gas to try to muscle its way into the power struggle, and is actively trying to interfere with the goals and ambitions of both Iran and Saudi Arabia rather then use their wealth to focus on themselves. 
    - Iraq is basically an Iranian satellite state since the Shia minority government we put in power have effectively ceded authority of the area to the Iranians in exchange for bribes and/or religious beliefs
    - Jordan is teetering on collapse because of rampant austerity cuts made by their king that bludgeoned the lower and middle classes while also disproportionally funding any initiative that undermines Israel. 
    - Afghanistan is once again being swallowed up by Taliban forces because they still rank near the bottom of the world in every economic quality despite nearly 20 years of occupational security by US forces
    - Pakistan has used the wealth granted to it by the US to beef up its faceoff with India rather then be a security safezone in the eastern part of the region

    The only countries that have at least not contributed to regional instability are Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates, though each has a number of concerning human rights abuses and disproportionate wealth gap between the very rich and the middle class. 

    The point is, I dont see any country in the Middle East that is worth risking region wide instability or accepting the risk of future terrorism attacks just to prop up. The entire region is basically the grounds for a three way religious holy war between Jewish Israel, Sunni Saudi Arabia, and Shi'ite Iran where any country the US sets up shop in just becomes another target for either regimes or terrorist radicals to potentially target. Our newfound oil wealth thanks to fracking has also reduced our national energy dependence on the region, so we can afford to get out of the entanglement now more than ever. 

    By pulling out of Syria, and effectively saying 'you know what, fuck it', we take that first step towards getting out of the mess. The next steps are to pull out troops from Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc. The smaller of a footprint the US leaves in the Middle East, the smaller of a chance that the US or its citizens and allies becomes from targeted by forces that could attack us, or inspire those within our borders to launch attacks of their own. 


  • Imabench
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    Worst case scenario is that multiple government collapse, mass exoduses take place, and sporadic wars break out between different groups that have bitten off a chunk of territory from a nation that otherwise cant hold itself together... How is that any different from what we have already though? Read the list I mentioned before and this time keep in mind that all this happened DESPITE widespread US intervention in these countries either financially, through military operations, or both. 

    By pulling out of Syria we pretty much fuck the Kurds. Yes it's unfortunate, they've been good allies for us in the past and we should be thankful to them for fucking ISIS for us.... But every time the US tries to ally itself with a group in the Middle East the same thing happens, a specific enemy is eliminated or reduced to irrelevancy, the allegiances of all groups and forces involved in the conflict get reshuffled, and some groups we previously funded and provided weapons to begins to view us as the enemy deserving of some Jihad (See the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan in the 1980's) causing another round of infighting and instability. Short term this leads to considerable instability, but its necessary to completing the long term goal of leaving keeping the region somewhat stable by letting the cards fall the way they inevitably will rather then spend trillions over time to try to make things fall in a way that is better for our short term desires. 

  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @Imabench
    I am a bit ambivalent on this one. I want all troops out of Afghanistan, Iraq, and probably every part of Syria without the (cheese) Kurds. They helped us fight ISIS, and they are currently guarding tons of those prisoners. I feel a bit crappy leaving a terrorist-fighting force at the hands of a group that essentially wants to commit genocide against the Kurds. I just don't want this to be a message to any future groups that are thinking about helping the US: that we will use them to help with our goals, and then immediately leave them to die. 

    I would prefer that we move our troops out of northern Syria once we can perhaps get some UN troops to take over instead. We don't have some huge obligation to them, but our presence(not even battling) was keeping them safe.
  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    I agree. America needs to get it's nose out of the middle east. But to just up and abandon an ally like that is terrible. If america wants to have influence in the world, but doesn't want to get directly pulled into wars, then it needs allies. This move makes it much more unlikely that anyone will trust america as an ally. 

    They should have gotten some sort of peace keeping force or at a minimum, an iron clad agreement from Turkey that they would not attack the Kurds. But the Turkish assault on the Kurds has already begun and trump is doing nothing about it. That blood is on Trump's hands. 
  • Mopac
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    I personally hope they don't go any further into Syria, because The Church of Antioch is now headquartered in Damascus, and I think it would be a terrible thing for 2 ancient Patriarchal sees to be under the Turkish government.
  • Imabench
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    I just don't want this to be a message to any future groups that are thinking about helping the US: that we will use them to help with our goals, and then immediately leave them to die. 

    That goes both ways though, a lot of groups that the US has allied with in the past have done that just for their own material benefit rather then because its the right thing to do. The most obvious example of this is how Pakistan accepted fucktons of aid following 9/11 to help with the war in Afghanistan, and most of that money instead has gone to beefing up its military against India.... They may have had some slight interest in knocking out the taliban regime next door, but they would have said yes to anything if it meant about $600 billion in aide from the US. Even the Kurds themselves are guilty of this to some degree, you could argue that the reason they bore the brunt of the fight against ISIS was because they hoped to be granted independence and be given their own lands to govern after the conflict ended. 

    With the Middle East in particular, there's no guarantee that the groups of people we would want to ally with now will still be our allies a few years down the road, or even exist at all. Kings and rulers who have held power for 40 years in powerful countries are swept aside in weeks, and if rulers with modern air forces and mechanized vehicles cant stay stable, groups of 'freedom fighters' that pop up into existence when a new conflict breaks out don't face much better odds. 

    I understand the message your concerned about sending if it were to countries in regions that are more stable. South America, Asia, Latin America, and Europe all have nations that the US can ally with for decades at a time. In the Middle East though everything is so volatile and temporary that there's a chance kicking allied groups to the curb has no effect 5 years down the line 
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @Imabench
    I agree that it is a bit more sketchy dealing with Middle Eastern groups than those in stable regions of the world. I am a bit concerned about this being used to radicalize Kurds against us now. I don't think they deserve what they are getting. Had we needed to fight to keep them safe, I would say 'hell no', but I believe there are much better reasons to leave other areas of the Middle East than this specific one. Of all places we could leave, this would should have been the last. 

    Also, I'm a bit concerned about what Turkey will do in the region if they conquer it. They are seeming a wee bit imperialistic.
  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    I'm not sure they want to hold it. They can't allow a separate kurdish state to exist because that would encourage kurds in their own country to push to join it. So they are going to go in, kill the kurds, and hand that territory over to someone who will agree to continue killing and suppressing the kurds. Probably Assad. But it could be one of the Islamist factions that still exist as well. 

    So america used these people to fight ISIS, and once ISIS was dealt with, Trump gave turkey the green light to massacre them. 
  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @Imabench
    Any chance for a TLDR? 
  • Dr.Franklin
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    Pitiful

    Dumbass Turkey is supporting the rebels who btw are TERRORISTS

    By pulling out of Syria we pretty much fuck the Kurds.
    Exactly, why would we reset 4 years of progress just for Russia and Assad to eat it up!, it makes no sense, we NEED a presence there so we can have an agreemne,t the rebels will lose Idlib and Assad will win,it will be the turkish backed rebels and the American backed kurds, with foreign powers eyeing eachother, an agreement would come.

    So we fucked that up

    "Turkish-backed jihadists are attacking the Syrian Democratic Forces north of Manbij"

    Are we gonna do anything about it? I mean Turkey sucks, Erdogan is a dictator and they repeatedly helped isis. I mean honestly how many times before we have to let Turkey go

    Fuck Turkey


    What a bad move, the WAR IS NOT OVER, IT WILL NEVER BE OVER, modern wars don't end, a war ends when an idea has been destroyed, WW2 ended because Nazism as an idea fell. Modern day ideas never get smashed because of the Internet and globalizaion. The truth is SYRIA is stuck ina hell-hole until a compromise, we dont get that compromise if we pull out of Syria.


  • RationalMadman
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    Bush's solution to everything: Shove it in and deny it is happening.

    Trump's solution to everything: Pull out and deny it ever happened.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    I am very frustrated at this idea, America needs a presence, there will be no peace otherwise, We don't need to attack, we just need to be there so we don't get an attack, THIS IS WHY TURKEY IS INVADING.

    It leaves me sick in my stomach that AGAIN another country is getting fucked up because of Americans pulling out, In Iraq it lead to ISIS, In Afganistan, it leads to the 2nd rise in the Taliban. We need to stop this. Stay in Syria, make peace, reach an agreement and for god's sake, let Assad win. He is the best choice between him and the rebels. Al-Nusra Front has decimated Syria, burned Aleppo, Beheaded children, t=and the media goes along with it, remember the Aleppo boy who was covered in dust, well his father was an ASSAD supporter, also a girl running through the war-torn city was taken from a MUSIC VIDEO. Assad and Russia will win, so let them.

    No country in the Middle East is worth allying with at the moment and havent been for at least 10 to 20 years now, either because of instability, inherent corruption, or both. 
    I disagree, Suadi may be corrupt, but a massive crucial ally, We also need Kuwait and I also think that Iraq has good intentions. Afganistan government is something we need,  fuck Pakistan so we can be allies with India. 

    - Iraq is basically an Iranian satellite state
    I disagree with 100%. Iran has corrupted that country more than us. The new Iraq government is awake. They realize that Iran funded groups to destabilize them, they understand they just want power, sure we invaded them but Saddam Hussien is not a hero anymore and the younger generations realize that. I think Iraq is a HUGE buffer state WE NEED. 

    I love posts like these!

  • Dr.Franklin
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    @RM

    Obama's Solution: Let it happen and do nothing about it
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @Imabench
    There is no reason to have standing forces in countries where there is no enemy to fight. What exactly did these Warhawks want Trump to do...topple Assad? Go tent to tent in the refugee camps and slit the throats of anyone suspected of being ISIS?

    None of that is reasonable nor worth losing American blood over. I am sure Tulsi would agree.
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @Imabench
     The smaller of a footprint the US leaves in the Middle East, the smaller of a chance that the US or its citizens and allies becomes from targeted by forces that could attack us, or inspire those within our borders to launch attacks of their own. 

    Exactly. USA simply being there is a recruiting tool for ISIS. As of now, ISIS is far, far more of a threat to EU than America, yet the EU is doing fuck-all to slow the spread of ISIS.

    Let's just walk away from that crap and let them sort it out.
  • Imabench
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    --> @TheRealNihilist
    Sorry

    TLDR = The whole region is unstable as fuck, and long term we would be far better off exiting the region completely like we're now doing with Syria, rather then keep trying to ally with every group in the region that is willing to just to preserve what temporary stability can be found
  • Imabench
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    I agree with you that Syria is screwed as long as the war continues and that Turkey can go fuck a duck, but with both the Iranians and the Russians willing to prop up Assad at all costs (Assad is close friends with Iran and Russia's number 1 weapons buyer is Syria) there's not much we can do to resolve the situation short of a full on intervention which a vast majority of Americans just dont want to commit to. 
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @Imabench
    The best thing is a quick end to the civil war. It doesn't matter what side wins as long as it is fast.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    I agree with you that Syria is screwed as long as the war continues and that Turkey can go fuck a duck, but with both the Iranians and the Russians willing to prop up Assad at all costs (Assad is close friends with Iran and Russia's number 1 weapons buyer is Syria) there's not much we can do to resolve the situation short of a full on intervention which a vast majority of Americans just dont want to commit to. 

    We have all of Northern Syria with the Kurds. Surely a ceasefire can only come out if foreign powers back up a fraction, it would be risky for either side to attack then
  • Castin
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    The Kurds made a mistake. They trusted America.
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @Castin
    I guess it is time to stab Turkey in the back for being America's ally.

    Do you even know why Turkey is killing the Kurds? Or it doesn't matter since Orangemanbad anyway?
  • Castin
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    --> @Greyparrot
    No, we need to wait until Turkey does us some recent big favor, first. But after that, absolutely, we commence Operation Backstab.
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @Castin
    They are already doing us a favor by giving us a reason to mind our own fucking business.
  • Castin
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    --> @Greyparrot
    You edited your post to add that second line later, so I honestly thought you were joking and you agreed with me. I rolled with the joke.

    I'm cautious about engaging you in a political conversation because you tend to just "orangemanbad" away every criticism of Trump, seemingly regardless of the content of the criticism. Just in my experience, anyway. It just makes discussion feel rather pointless.
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @Castin
    That's fair. Every joke is orangemanbad.