I'm not convinced Elizabeth Warren understands politics very well.

Author: HistoryBuff ,

Topic's posts

Posts in total: 20
  • HistoryBuff
    HistoryBuff avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 2,963
    3
    3
    2
    HistoryBuff avatar
    HistoryBuff
    Elizabeth warren has provided more details about her healthcare plan, and it is a little baffling that she and her team thought this would go over well. Here is a link to her plan. And just as a heads up, yes this is likely to be heavy on opinion as the topic is speculative on events years in advance. If you think my opinions are incorrect, please let me know what you think. 


    Passing any kind of healthcare reform, whether it is Biden's plan, Buttigieg's or medicare for all, is going to be a brutal fight. Every republican will fight it. Some of the democrats, like Joe Manchin, are likely to fight it too. 

    Warren's plan is to have that brutal fight, but not to pass medicare for all (as she claims she supports) but to essentially do Pete's plan instead. Then 3 years later (before the end of the 1st term but likely after the midterm election) have the fight again to try to implement Medicare for all. This might be a good plan from a wonky, technocratic point of view. But from a political point of view it is insane. 

    The way it will play it out is like this. Democrats will fight for pete's plan and maybe get it passed. Then 3 years later, assuming warren pushes for Medicare for all at all, she will find that very few elected democrats have any interest in passing it. They already passed a healthcare reform. Most of them don't support medicare for all anyway. They will be happy with Pete's plan and not want to implement medicare for all. By putting pete's plan in 1st, she will temporarily alleviate some of the worst symptoms of the broken healthcare system and remove some of the pressure that could help pass medicare for all. This will make it even less likely she can get the democratic establishment to implement medicare for all. Even worse, it assumes that she wins the midterms. Historically the midterms swing support away from the president's party. It is entirely possible that after the midterm she loses enough support to actually pass it anyway. 

    In my opinion, this shows us 1 of 3 things. Potentially there could be elements of more than 1.

    1) she doesn't have a solid enough understanding of politics to implement her plans. - If she thinks that splitting the healthcare reform into 2 separate political fights spaced a few years apart is a good political plan, that seems like she doesn't. It might be she is good at designing policy, but doesn't understand politics well enough to actually be in charge of implementing it.

    2) This is her attempt at a cop out to try to win over the democratic establishment - The establishment of the democratic party don't want medicare for all. The progressive wing of the party insist on it. She wants to be seen as a progressive (she largely is one, i'm not saying she isn't) but also wants to be palatable to people like pelosi or clinton. So she is pushing for an implementation that is unlikely to work in an attempt to appeal to both sides.

    3) This is her attempt to run as a progressive, but not actually pass medicare for all - It's possible she knows this won't work. That she knows perfectly well that the outcome will be Pete's plan and medicare for all won't get passed. It's possible this is an attempt to run as a progressive but not actually pass the main progressive policy and she is building in a way to deflect blame when it fails to pass. 

    Given that she is already being attacked from the right by Pete and Biden, it seems really odd that she has basically just opened up a huge target to be attacked from the left. In order to maintain support from progressives she needs to be crystal clear that she wants and will fight for medicare for all. This plan just creates more doubt. 
  • TheRealNihilist
    TheRealNihilist avatar
    Debates: 44
    Forum posts: 4,909
    4
    8
    11
    TheRealNihilist avatar
    TheRealNihilist
    --> @HistoryBuff
    Does Bernie?

    This is relevant. 

    How about Biden?

    It is relevant because it about comparing her to them. 

    That she knows perfectly well that the outcome will be Pete's plan
    I didn't know how much I liked him before reading the article. 
  • HistoryBuff
    HistoryBuff avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 2,963
    3
    3
    2
    HistoryBuff avatar
    HistoryBuff
    --> @TheRealNihilist
    Does Bernie?
    This is relevant. 
    That is a fair question. Bernie's plan is to use his populist support and the bully pulpit to force corporate dems to do what the people want or be primaried and removed.

    His plan has actually already been proven to be effective. Trump was an outsider candidate who took over the republican party. Now trump took that and used it for corrupt or stupid purposes. But he proved it can be done. Especially in the current atmosphere. That doesn't mean it will necessarily work for Bernie, but it is a plan that has been proven to be viable. 

    How about Biden?
    I would say Biden is a mixed bag. He is very much the political insider. He knows how to wheel and deal in the halls of power. But he doesn't understand the time he lives in. Trump and sanders' popularity has proven that the people don't want to "return to normal". If they wanted that then Hilary would have won. i think Biden could get his corportist policies passed. But that they won't fix any of the problems people are having. And in 4 or 8 years an even crazier right wing populist will crush the dems.

    I didn't know how much I liked him before reading the article. 
    Pete is super slimy. I'm not sure he really stands for anything. He has praised the Tea Party, flip flops on what he believes. He is the exact thing that is wrong with the modern democratic party. Socially left but economically right. Just say the right thing about gay rights but don't actually do the reforms needed to help people. But he polls at like 0% among black people so he has no chance of winning. 
  • TheRealNihilist
    TheRealNihilist avatar
    Debates: 44
    Forum posts: 4,909
    4
    8
    11
    TheRealNihilist avatar
    TheRealNihilist
    --> @HistoryBuff
    what the people want
    What do people want? Polls will help.
    His plan has actually already been proven to be effective
    Whose plan?
    What plan (populist plan)?
    Trump and sanders' popularity has proven that the people don't want to "return to normal".
    Are you saying Biden is less popular than Bernie? 
    If they wanted that then Hilary would have won.
    I am going to let this slide.
    economically right
    Policy proposal please.
    0% among black people so he has no chance of winning. 
    Is it unfair to lie about a candidate. I guarantee at least 1 black person supports Pete so why are you lying about this? This is intentional because I don't believe for a second you actually think he has 0% black support.
    Can you source the Iowa poll as well or do you want me too? 
  • HistoryBuff
    HistoryBuff avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 2,963
    3
    3
    2
    HistoryBuff avatar
    HistoryBuff
    --> @TheRealNihilist
    What do people want?
    People want healthcare. they don't want to go bankrupt trying to pay for it. I think they are open to different ways of getting there. Pollsters don't usually poll on nitty gritty details of healthcare reform. But Biden's plan or Buttigieg's plan doesn't address the underlying problems in healthcare. they deal with some of the symptoms in a way that is doomed to fail. So ultimately, it will only increase demands for radical change, as we saw when trump got elected. If there isn't a fundamental reform of the system, things will continue to get worse. 

    His plan has actually already been proven to be effective
    Whose plan?
    What plan (populist plan)?
    Did you not read the previous paragraph. I meant bernie's plan, as described in that paragraph. "Bernie's plan is to use his populist support and the bully pulpit to force corporate dems to do what the people want or be primaried and removed."

    Are you saying Biden is less popular than Bernie?
    I am saying that people want the fundamental problems in the system to be fixed. They want their lives to get better. At the moment, many just want to beat trump and they think Biden is best to do that. But since he won't actually fix the problems that got trump elected, it would be a disaster if he won. 

    Policy proposal please.
    Well his healthcare plan is to essentially let private companies take all the profit from providing healthcare. That is economically right wing policy. Just like Obama care was a right wing plan created by a right wing think tank. 

    Is it unfair to lie about a candidate. I guarantee at least 1 black person supports Pete so why are you lying about this?
    Here is a recent south carolina poll. He got less than 1% support from black people in a state where like 65% of the electorate are black. An average might put him 1% or 2% higher. But this guy has no attraction to black people. He can't win the primary and he likely couldn't beat trump either. 
  • TheRealNihilist
    TheRealNihilist avatar
    Debates: 44
    Forum posts: 4,909
    4
    8
    11
    TheRealNihilist avatar
    TheRealNihilist
    --> @HistoryBuff
    Pollsters don't usually poll on nitty gritty details of healthcare reform. 
    Using this doesn't, I am implying, support your Bernie support. If you actually want me to take seriously that Medicare for all is what people want then bring a poll.
    His plan has actually already been proven to be effective
    Okay tell me how Bernie's plan is even effective when he hasn't even been elected and it is unlikely for that to occur?
    I am saying that people want the fundamental problems in the system to be fixed. They want their lives to get better. At the moment, many just want to beat trump and they think Biden is best to do that. But since he won't actually fix the problems that got trump elected, it would be a disaster if he won. 
    Poll. If all you have is your opinion. Just say it and we will move on.
    Well his healthcare plan is to essentially let private companies take all the profit from providing healthcare.
    Tell me Pete's plan again.
    Just like Obama care was a right wing plan created by a right wing think tank. 
    So the creation of something means it will forever be on that side? Meaning Obamacare is a right wing plan because its first relevant came by Republicans? If this is a no then tell me your actual reason for calling it right wing.
    Here is a recent south carolina poll. He got less than 1% support from black people in a state where like 65% of the electorate are black. An average might put him 1% or 2% higher. But this guy has no attraction to black people. He can't win the primary and he likely couldn't beat trump either. 
    So you are a liar then?
    "But he polls at like 0% among black people"
    Nothing you says defends the statement I made so I am guessing you are intentionally not speaking about the point. I will keep bringing it up until you won about lying about Pete's approval with black people. After that then we can talk about his support with black people. 
  • bmdrocks21
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    Debates: 6
    Forum posts: 1,804
    4
    6
    10
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    bmdrocks21
    "Obamacare is a right-wing plan"....?

    In what way did Obamacare reduce government intrusion on the healthcare market and promote the free market through competition?
  • Dr.Franklin
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Debates: 32
    Forum posts: 8,702
    4
    7
    11
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Dr.Franklin
    Why couldn;t have diel won!
  • bmdrocks21
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    Debates: 6
    Forum posts: 1,804
    4
    6
    10
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    bmdrocks21
    --> @Dr.Franklin
    She obviously doesn't understand politics very well. Or economics for that matter.

    :^)
  • Dr.Franklin
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Debates: 32
    Forum posts: 8,702
    4
    7
    11
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Dr.Franklin
    --> @bmdrocks21
    Yeah she's not a Native american either,haha
  • bmdrocks21
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    Debates: 6
    Forum posts: 1,804
    4
    6
    10
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    bmdrocks21
    --> @Dr.Franklin
    I'll add "doesn't understand biology/genetics" to the list   
  • Dr.Franklin
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Debates: 32
    Forum posts: 8,702
    4
    7
    11
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Dr.Franklin
    --> @bmdrocks21
    very true
  • bmdrocks21
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    Debates: 6
    Forum posts: 1,804
    4
    6
    10
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    bmdrocks21
    --> @Dr.Franklin
    Like, the cognitive dissonance is astounding. Had Trump lied about his heritage to get into college, he'd have been crucified. But since she's a woman and liberal, it's fine. 

    Honk Honk :O)
  • Dr.Franklin
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Debates: 32
    Forum posts: 8,702
    4
    7
    11
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Dr.Franklin
    --> @bmdrocks21
    oh yeah, of course, a COURAGEOUS women, what a load of BS, apologize to native americans
  • bmdrocks21
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    Debates: 6
    Forum posts: 1,804
    4
    6
    10
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    bmdrocks21
    --> @Dr.Franklin

  • Dr.Franklin
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Debates: 32
    Forum posts: 8,702
    4
    7
    11
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Dr.Franklin
    --> @bmdrocks21
    I am dissapointed that I am represented by her
  • bmdrocks21
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    Debates: 6
    Forum posts: 1,804
    4
    6
    10
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    bmdrocks21
    --> @Dr.Franklin
    You're from Massachusetts?

  • Dr.Franklin
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Debates: 32
    Forum posts: 8,702
    4
    7
    11
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Dr.Franklin
    --> @bmdrocks21
    That's what I meant by New England
  • bmdrocks21
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    Debates: 6
    Forum posts: 1,804
    4
    6
    10
    bmdrocks21 avatar
    bmdrocks21
    --> @Dr.Franklin
    *oof*
    I'm from Indiana. Deep red here, my boy!
  • Dr.Franklin
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Debates: 32
    Forum posts: 8,702
    4
    7
    11
    Dr.Franklin avatar
    Dr.Franklin
    --> @bmdrocks21
    Actually it's not bad where I live, in a town of 2500 and right next to East New Hampshire(the republican area of, it's a typical republican town, just Boston sucks

    Sucks to see my vote is useless