Roman Catholic vs Orthodox Catholic

Author: Alec ,

Posts

Total: 17
Alec
Alec's avatar
Debates: 42
Posts: 2,474
5
7
11
Alec's avatar
Alec
5
7
11
What's the difference between the 2?
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
--> @Alec
There are a few major differences.

1, The Orthodox Church has never prescribed to the idea of papal supremacy. In fact, at the time of the great schism, there were 4 other "Popes" or patriarchs. These all had jurisdictions, and prior councils of the church condemned the practice of foreign bishops meddling in the affairs of local churches. The Patriarchs themselves are simply bishops. Their vote counts the same as any other bishop. Theirs is primarily an administrative and logistical role(besides of course, what is expected of every bishop, which is to be a living icon of Christ and a preserver of the faith)

2, The creed of The Orthodox Catholic Church was agreed by the entire church, including Rome to be what was formulated at the ecumenical councils of Nicea and Constantinople. Church councils clearly state that altering the creed of the church outside of an ecumenical council is an act of schism and is considered anathema.

These are the two major things that lead to the great schism, and they are far too important to gloss over. The first example might be a little more obvious, because it isn't hard to see how the rest of the church might take issue with someone effectively declaring themselves king of all Christendom. The altering of the creed has vast theological implications that corrupts the doctrine of The Trinity.

The part of the creed in question is the line that reads

"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father."

What the Latin church did was add "and the Son." To the end of this.

Now, it would be correct to say that The Holy Spirit proceeds from The Father through The Son, but to say that The Holy Spirit proceeds from The Father and The Son is problematic for a few simple reasons.

In the original creed written in Greek, the word that  gets translated into "proceeds" has to do with the origin. The Orthodox point of view is that The Father is the source of divinity. 

Jesus Himself says that the Spirit proceeds from The Father.

When you speak a word, does the breathe you exhale originate in the word that is spoken? No, the breathe proceeds from the lungs, the word is begotten from the lips, and the breathe proceeds through the word carrying it. Though this is a parable and shouldn't be taken to mean that God The Father has lungs or a mouth, it is an accurate image of how we see the procession of The Spirit through The Word.

=======

Now besides all that, since the Latin Church became schismatic, they have drifted further and further away from Orthodoxy. One of the best examples is present in our approaches to theology.

Compare hesychism with scholasticism.

In the Latin church developed scholasticism, which is an approach to theology that emphasizes proper education amd the use of reason. 

In The Orthodox Church, we have maintained the original discipline of the faith which has more to do with purifying the heart than reason.


Most of the church fathers were Greek, and so in the Latin speaking Church Augustine gained special prominence and to this day is easily the most influential church father in the west. In fact, Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk. John Calvin derived most of his theology from his interpretation of Augustine's writings. So even in protestantism, Augustine is very influential!

Unfortunately during Augustine's life, the not as accurate as maybe it should have been Latin bible gave Augustine this idea that all of humanity has inherited the guilt of Adam. The Orthodox position is actually that we inherited the mess that was caused by Adam's transgression, not the guilt.

An example of how this has effected their theology, the doctrine of the immaculate conception was invented basically to get around the idea that Mary had inherited the guilt of Adam. So, Mary was born without sin, unlike any other human being, so that Christ would inherit her perfect sinless flesh. The Orthodox Church has no such doctrine, because we don't understand original sin the same way!

Roman Catholicism is more judicial, while Orthodox Catholicism sees the church in a more therepeutic sense. Court house vs hospital.

Roman Catholics are encouraged to pray while imagining images. The Orthodox rightly understand this practice as leading to spiritual delusion, and we are encouraged instead to avoid images in our inner prayer.

The Roman Catholic Church reassigns clergy who sexual abuse others. The Orthodox Catholic Church does not tolerate sexual abuse among its clergy.

The Roman Catholic Church does not allow for married priests. It is a preference in The Orthodox Catholic Church that priests are married.

The Roman Catholic Church has called crusades, forcibly converted native peoples, and has persecuted and murdered many saints. The Orthodox Catholic Church can not call crusades, and has been in nearly a constant state of persecution its entire history, even up until today.

During the middle ages, The Pope of Rome claimed secular authority and bishops held government office. The Orthodox Catholic Church maintains that it must be distinct from government, considering the combining of the two to be the heresy of caesaropapsim, and it is against church canon for clergy to hold government office.

While both Roman Catholics and Orthodox Catholics highly rever the blessed theotokos and virgin Mary(she is like a mother to all Christians) even in a way that makes protestants a little uncomfortable, it is a bit different. For example, the day we celebrate the bodily death of Mary(dormition), the Roman Catholics celebrate the assumption. It is offical dogma of The Roman Catholic Church that Mary was lifted into heaven without bodily death! It is not uncommon to see Roman Catholic icons (Like the virgin of Guadalupe) of Mary by herself. With very few exceptions, all icons of Mary in The Orthodox Church also include Jesus, and Mary is always directing attention to Him. 


There are really a lot of differences. That said, we share a thousand years of history in common, so there are going to be many similarities as well. 


The Roman Catholics say Orthodoxy broke away from them. The Orthodox Catholic Church say Rome broke away from them. I studied the issue myself and concluded that Rome is on the wrong side of the issue, because they are the ones who altered the faith and violated the ecumenical councils, of which The Orthodox Church has been very faithful despite the fact that there seems to be a never ending global conspiracy to destroy our church.




































Alec
Alec's avatar
Debates: 42
Posts: 2,474
5
7
11
Alec's avatar
Alec
5
7
11
--> @Mopac
The Roman Catholic Church reassigns clergy who sexual abuse others.
I think the Roman Catholic church is trying to punish sex abusers now, but I'm not sure.

The Orthodox Church has been very faithful despite the fact that there seems to be a never ending global conspiracy to destroy our church.
Not so sure if this claim is accurate.

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
--> @Alec
I hope they do, but after reading a certain encyclical from the last Pope of Rome which describes how Catholic Seminaries all over the world have openly gay clubs, which should not even be a thing, it seems to me that the corruption is out of of control.

You don't have to believe me about the accuracy of my claims. I found The Orthodox Church by accident(or providence? Eh.). Studying church history and the writings of the church fathers is what made me Orthodox. The church I go to his filled with parishoners who used to be clergy at other churches. The oldest priest(who is technically retired, but still sticks around and teaches classes and such) was a former Roman Catholic priest. We had a deacon who recently moved away who was an episcopalian priest. Another guy who was a Lutheran pastor. Another guy who was a pastor at a Church of Christ. A lot of lay Roman Catholic and protestant parishioners as well.

One thing all these people who used to be clergy have in common is that all of them were pastors for over 20 years, and all of them ended up becoming orthodox because that is where their studies lead them. 


So if it is really a subject that interests you, I'd say look in to it. What really won me over though was the fact that the Orthodox Church has enlightened doctrine. It really knows the God it worships, and I can't say that about most churches.

Alec
Alec's avatar
Debates: 42
Posts: 2,474
5
7
11
Alec's avatar
Alec
5
7
11
--> @Mopac
I still think the Catholic church is tough on homosexuality.  They really want their gay members to change and become straight, or at least they used to.  Pope Francis hasn't been a true Christian on homosexuality if he welcomes them without assimilating them to become more Christian/more straight.  Granted, they should be like that to every sin as religious people.  I think the bible stance on homosexuality is if your gay, either change or be celibate.


One thing all these people who used to be clergy have in common is that all of them were pastors for over 20 years, and all of them ended up becoming orthodox because that is where their studies lead them. 
I think it goes both ways.  People go to the orthodox church and they leave it.  Some atheists become christian, some Christians become atheist.  It would be more telling about how much the orthodox church has grown/shrunk over the years.  
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
--> @Alec
Armenian genocide, Greek genocide, Syrian genocide, and of course, The Soviet Union which deserves special mention because they made more martyrs in a few decades than all of Christian history combined! 


It's actually somewhat of a miracle that the church is growing at all, especially given the harsh persecutions of the last century.

The Orthodox Church in America is not fully formed, it is still in its infancy. That being the case, we have this weird situation where you have a lot of different churches from overseas. Mostly immigrants escaping persecution in.... just about every single country that has an orthodox presence.

I shit you not.


Alec
Alec's avatar
Debates: 42
Posts: 2,474
5
7
11
Alec's avatar
Alec
5
7
11
--> @Mopac
The Soviet Union which deserves special mention because they made more martyrs in a few decades than all of Christian history combined! 
They are only working martyrs if they went to heaven.  What if they didn't?

It's actually somewhat of a miracle that the church is growing at all, especially given the harsh persecutions of the last century.
They aren't.  They are shrinking: 

The Orthodox Church in America is not fully formed, it is still in its infancy.
How are they not formed yet?  They have been around for hundreds of years.

I think people are fleeing orthodox countries because they want to get better economic opportunities.
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
--> @Alec
I don't think you really grasp just how much the church has been through, particularly in the last couple hundred years. 


But I certainly stand by The Orthodox Catholic Church, and I am convinced it is the definitive Christian Church. I can't really expect to transfer that awareness to you. All I can really say is that if you are curious, nothing beats actually going to an Orthodox Church, taking part in the liturgy, talking to the priests, asking questions and such, and reading church literature. 


It is something you would have to want to look in to yourself. I doubt I am capable of convincing anyone of anything.

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
Read a little closer. Orthodoxy is growing in numbers, but not as a percentage of the nominally Christian population. 


Is that really surprising? They don't let us proselytize or even practice our faith openly in the middle east, The Soviet Union killed dozens of millions of us while demolishing our churches and killing like 90% of the clergy. Up until pretty recently, Greece was a part of Turkey. In fact, Greek Orthodoxy is the largest in America. Why? Because while everyone else in the church was landlocked and oppressed by anti-christs, Greece has been relatively free in recent times and also... happens to not be landlocked! Really, that helps.


So I mean, you know, cut us some slack. At least I am here, right? Eh?

Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
--> @Alec

While western Europe was sailing all happy around the world...


How was Orthodoxy introduced to the Americas? Missionary monks trecked across all of Siberia and crossed into Alaska. The Aleuts still have a sizable Orthodox population to this day. One of their first martyrs was tortured to death by a Roman Catholic priest for not submitting to the authority of Rome.

Really though, take that in. Trecked across all of Siberia. That is not an easy assignment. St Herman of Alaska was a pretty tough dude, along with the other monks that accompanoed him.



Deb-8-a-bull
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,151
3
2
3
Deb-8-a-bull's avatar
Deb-8-a-bull
3
2
3
Whatever the difference, one thing is for certain, and thats, 
God needs you guys to meet up at a building down the road.  
Picture it.


Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
--> @Deb-8-a-bull
God does not need anything, it is people who need things.
SupaDudz
SupaDudz's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 13,428
5
8
11
SupaDudz's avatar
SupaDudz
5
8
11
--> @Alec
Orthodoxy is a tough concept for America to wrap its head around because people are extremely lazy and do not want to practice the old ways of Orthodoxy because they are lazy. It is the traditional church that never took root til the early 70s due to nativism in America throughout the Great Wars, as Orthodoxy was frowned upon due to Soviets controlling it 
SupaDudz
SupaDudz's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 13,428
5
8
11
SupaDudz's avatar
SupaDudz
5
8
11
--> @Mopac
That is a fact

SupaDudz
SupaDudz's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 13,428
5
8
11
SupaDudz's avatar
SupaDudz
5
8
11
--> @Mopac
Greek Orthodoxy is the largest in America. Why? Because while everyone else in the church was landlocked and oppressed by anti-christs, Greece has been relatively free in recent times and also... happens to not be landlocked! Really, that helps.
Greece is also a "power country." The are a developed nation that developed the religion of Orthodoxy. They are one of the biggest Orthodox powers right now due to the population and overall. Greek martyrs are also a huge part of the Orthodox culture. St. Spyridon, St. Nectarios, many of these saints have worked miracles and have contributed to the faith. Plus the Greek population overall is on the incline in US
Mopac
Mopac's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 8,050
3
4
7
Mopac's avatar
Mopac
3
4
7
--> @SupaDudz
As the scriptures are written in Greek, and it is the language of the ecumenical councils, it can only benefit the church in America to have strong influence from the Greek church. 






SupaDudz
SupaDudz's avatar
Debates: 30
Posts: 13,428
5
8
11
SupaDudz's avatar
SupaDudz
5
8
11
--> @Mopac
That is also very true