The Lost "Dead" Son.

Author: Stephen ,

Topic's posts

Posts in total: 25
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,586
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    This is the famous story as told by Jesus in parable. It tells of the son who squander his inheritance and the goes groveling back to his daddy. Yes I get it, it is a typical trope used often by bible authors and characters and preachers.

      

    22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate. Luke 15:11-32https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15%3A11-32&version=NIV



    But what is interesting in this story is the language i.e the metaphor that the father uses of the son once being "dead" and then "alive" again.

    The story ends at 32 with the The Father repeating the saying to a disgruntled brother of the "dead" son. 32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

    In any language we understand  that one cannot be dead and then alive again except when Jesus, or  a biblical author says so and  a Christian takes it literally. 

    But notice, there is no mention here of anyone asking Jesus for instance, how did the boy die? Who brought him back to life?  No one questioned  or contradicted Jesus saying that  ' one cannot die and come back to life ' either. And the reason for this is because those who had ears  understood perfectly what Jesus meant. 


    This wild child obviously hadn't died and wasn't brought back to life again either, but we have to acknowledge that the Father referred to him as being "dead" but what he meant here was that the son had been a very naughty boy but had acknowledged his mistakes and returned to the fold of his father "alive" again.

     
    21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15%3A11-32&version=KJV




    How had this boy sinned against heaven?  
    There is no explanation as to why this son should believe he had sinned against "heaven"  or should be  described by Jesus as being "dead" for doing so. 
     What  was different about this "death" than say the alleged "deaths" of Jairus' daughter or Widow's son? 










  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,586
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen

    Jesus Raises a "Dead" Girl

    "behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
     And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise. He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose”.Mathew 9: 18-25.KJV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+9%3A18-25&version=KJV


    Was this  "dead"  girl just another one of those metaphorical "deaths" that the naughty squanderer playboy son had suffered during his "sinning against heaven"? 

  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 5,474
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5
    Lol. Metaphors gives our genius conniptions.

    There is no explanation as to why this son should believe he had sinned against "heaven"
    Because rational people all know instinctively. But for you, the 5th commandment. Honor your parents.
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,586
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @ethang5
     There explanation as to why this son should believe he had sinned against "heaven"


    Honor your parents.

    Are you just desperately scratching around for an explanation. 

    This son, by the way, hadn't defied his father had he? He hadn't  openly resisted or refused to follow any advice or demand made of him by his father, either. 

    This metaphorical "death" of the son seemed to be the understood language of the day.:  if you didn't believe in or follow the laws and dictates of god you were classed as "dead" to believers. 

    And it appears that this once "dead" son only returned because where he was living at the time: "there was a severe famine in that whole country"  Luke 15:14, 
    otherwise, who knows, he may never had returned home but preferring to remain "dead".



  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 5,474
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5
    --> @Stephen
    Are you just desperately scratching  around for an explanation. 
    No sambo.  You asked why the son would think he had sinned against God. The answer is, because he realized he had broken the 5th commandment.

    This son, by the way, hadn't defied his father had he?
    No one has said anything about defying genius. He dishonored his father, as the 5th commandment says not to do.

    He hadn't  openly resisted or refused to follow any advice or demand made of him by his father, either. 
    But he had dishonored his father. Will you go on listing irrelevant things he did not do?

    This metaphorical "death" of the son seemed to be the understood language of the day.:  if you didn't believe in or follow the laws and dictates of god you were classed as "dead" to believers. 
    Eh. Your loony interpretations are of no interest to me.

    And it appears that this once "dead" son only returned because where he was living at the time: "there was a severe famine in that whole country"  Luke 15:14,
    That is not what the son himself said, but you have a fake "controversy" to peddle don't you?

    ...otherwise, who knows, he may never had returned home but preferring to remain "dead".
    And yet his father was gracious and forgiving enough to accept him back without judgement.

    I heard a great sermon once about this story and how the celebrations were not for the returning son, but actually for the rejoicing Father.

    I think it takes being a parent to get the full meaning of this parable and the feeling of the father.

    Luk 15:10 - Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repents.
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,586
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    So it appears then that referring to  he or she being "dead" doesn't actually mean a literal "death". it simply means a metaphorical death which the educated (those with ears Matthew 11:15) of the time clearly understood.

    This again can be seen in the case of Ananias and his dear wife Sapphira.  They had held back funds from the movement that should have gone to "the poor". And for their "sin" had simply  "dropped down dead".   i.e they were cast out to be among the metaphorical "dead".    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+5&version=NIV

     What then do we make of the other stories concerning so called "dead" people? The "dead" daughter of Matthew 9:18-25  and the widows "dead" son?Luke 7:11-17

    And there is of course the most famous raising of all time, the raising of the "dead" Lazarus, whom Jesus loved. And strangely, only mentioned in one gospel.


    Apart from the metaphorical  coming back to life from being "dead", the story of Lazarus and the "dead" daughter have something in common: Jesus on both occasions clearly says they are both "only asleep": "for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth" Matthew 9:24 "“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”John 11:11.

    When we consider all the  BIBLICAL evidence concerning these so called "dead" people it is clearly noticeable that these individuals are simply not ready for the grave and literally "dead" at all but they have been deemed to be "dead" " for one sin or another by their peers, priest or parents and had "lost their way".  In today parlance this could mean simply rebelliousness and defiance, i.e it is simple idiomatic language denoting expressions that are natural to a native speaker.


    And interestingly this is exactly what the father of the wayward wasteful son actually says.  Immediately after using the first "dead" metaphor the Father speaks using a second metaphor  which holds exactly the same meaning  as the first .
     

    24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate. Luke 15:11-32https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+15%3A11-32&version=NIV
     

    And all the above BIBLICAL evidence can now explain this enigmatic ambiguous verse: 


    “And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead”. Matthew 8:21-22.KJV 


  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 5,474
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5
    --> @Stephen
    So it appears then that referring to  he or she being "dead" doesn't actually mean a literal "death".
    Like referring to he or she being  "sheep"  doesn't actually mean a literal "sheep". Lol.

    ...it simply means a metaphorical death 
    Like metaphorical sheep!

    What then do we make of the other stories concerning so called "dead" people?
    Well, sensible normal people read each one to see whether the death is literal or metaphorical. Idiots pretend that there is some sort of "confusion" in simple stories even children get.

    And all the above BIBLICAL evidence can now explain this enigmatic ambiguous verse
    Lol. Atheist Stephen is preaching! Explain those verses to us genius!

    Poor guy didn't know where to go after his clunker was exploded, and became a temp Christian explaining the verses. Too funny.
  • ronjs
    ronjs avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 244
    0
    2
    2
    ronjs avatar
    ronjs
    --> @Stephen
    The father feared his son may be dead because of not seeing him for so long but rejoiced when he found out he was still alive. We use that term today when referring to someone who has done us wrong (so and is dead to me for what he did)) or we might call someone a deadhead when they do something stupid,but neither are literally dead.






    0

  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 5,474
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5
    --> @ronjs
    ...but neither are literally dead.
    To people like Steven, Salixes, and Dee Dee, words in the bible can have only one meaning. Metaphors, similes, and figure of speech are tricks of theists.

    You have to explain this to an adult?
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,586
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @ronjs
    The father feared his son may be dead because of not seeing him for so long ...

    There is nothing in the story that gives the slightest  indication whatsoever that the father had believed his son to be literally "dead" or had died in some far off place. You are clutching at straws.

    We use that term today when referring to someone who has done us wrong

    We do. And we also use the other metaphor that this father used, don't we: ' once lost [his way] and now found '. Another is   he /she has "gone off the rails '. 

    The fact is, is that not one of these stories about supposed "dead" people is actually about anyone being  literally dead . As the biblical evidence above shows. 

    we might call someone a deadhead when they do something stupid,

    Indeed and when they come to their senses - as did the wayward son in Luke 15:17 and they stop behaving "stupid" we  sometimes refer to them as having "seen the light"   don't we?  But it doesn't mean that these "stupid" people had never seen daylight, does it.

    When we take closer look at the “dead daughter” story we can see that either Jesus lied or he didn’t perform a miracle or both;

    “behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshiped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.  And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise. He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn. But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose”.Mathew 9: 18-25.KJV

    So we see, if the “certain” ruler’s daughter is dead has her father believes she is, then Jesus lied exactly as he did to those disciples who were with him in the case of Lazarus  where he first told them Lazarus was not dead but asleep. And if she (the daughter) was not dead, then there was no miracle performed but a ritual “raising”. It seems Christians or at least these Gospel writers, want it both ways.


  • ronjs
    ronjs avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 244
    0
    2
    2
    ronjs avatar
    ronjs
    --> @Stephen
    There is nothing in the story that gives the slightest indication whatsoever that the father had believed his son to be literally "dead" or had died in some far off place. You are clutching at straws.




    It is still common for a parent to fear the worst when it comes to a missing child and whether it is indicated or not doesn't mean that was not the case
    .It's
     speculation but based on personal experience.






    is   he

    /she has "gone off the rails '. 

    The fact is, is that not one of these stories about supposed "dead" people is actually about anyone
    being  literally 

    dead .
    As the biblical evidence above shows. 


    And
    i
    never said anyone was literally dead.




    Indeed and when they come to their senses - as did the wayward son in Luke 15:17 and they stop behaving "stupid"
    we  sometimes
    refer to them as having "seen the light"   don't we?  But it doesn't mean that these "stupid" people had never seen daylight,
    does

    it.

    Don't see your point




  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 5,474
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5
    ...Jesus lied exactly as he did to those disciples who were with him in the case of Lazarus  where he first told them Lazarus was not dead but asleep. 

    He doesn't know that "asleep" is the term used for the dead in Christ. But of course, his ignorance causes him no caution.
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,586
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @ethang5
    He doesn't know that "asleep" is the term used for the dead in Christ. 

     Only Spiritually "dead" , is what I believe you are trying to tell me. Or you can simply  explain what "dead in Christ" means to you.

       I have said quite clearly that the father in this so called "dead" son story is speaking only in metaphor in my OP but you have ignored that and instead chosen to thrown out this lying accusation : Post 9 above

    To people like Steven[..... ] words in the bible can have only one meaning.  Metaphors, similes, and figure of speech are tricks of theists.





  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,586
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @ronjs
    Don't see your point

    Metaphors and idioms is my point.

    You have no evidence to support your claim that the father of the "dead" son believed him to be literally "dead" no more than you have evidence that the father believed his son to be literally "lost".  The father is using two metaphors  and  idioms of the day. 

    In  English, this son was neither dead nor lost. And hadn't just disappeared into the night. 


    idiomatic
    /ˌɪdɪəˈmatɪk/
    Learn to pronounce
    adjective

    1. 1.
      using, containing, or denoting expressions that are natural to a native speaker.
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^

  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 5,474
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5
    --> @Stephen
    Jesus lied exactly as he did to those disciples who were with him in the case of Lazarus  where he first told them Lazarus was not dead but asleep. 
    He doesn't know that "asleep" is the term used for the dead in Christ. But of course, his ignorance causes him no caution.

    Act 7:60 - Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Stephen is killed but is said to be asleep.

    Act 13:36 - “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;

    David's death is called falling asleep.

    1Co 15:6 - After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.

    Some have died, but those deaths are called falling asleep.

    1Co 15:18 - Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

    Their murder is called falling asleep.

    1Co 15:20 - But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

    All believers in Christ are called asleep when dead.

    1Th 4:13 - But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

    All believers in Christ are called asleep when dead.

    1Th 4:15 - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

    All believers in Christ are called asleep when dead.

    But your ignorance of Christianity and your deceit has caused you to claim Jesus is lying.

    And you know you are being dishonest, but you don't care as long as your lies allow you to attack Christianity.
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,586
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @ethang5
    He doesn't know that "asleep" is the term used for the dead in Christ.

    I am still waiting for your explanation as to what it means to be, as you put it _  "dead in Christ" . These were your words not my words  but you keep failing to explain what it means. 

    so when you are ready princess, I am all fkn ears. Off you go.
  • ronjs
    ronjs avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 244
    0
    2
    2
    ronjs avatar
    ronjs
    --> @Stephen
    I never claimed that he thought him to be dead, but i know from experience that that is a common fear among parents of missing children so it is a reasonable conclusion.
     
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,586
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen

    I never claimed that he thought him to be dead,

    This is what you wrote at post #8 above.


    "The father feared his son may be dead because of not seeing him for so long but rejoiced when he found out he was still alive".  There is no indication in the-whole of this story that the father thought for one second that his son was literally "dead" . Nothing at all.

    that that is a common fear among parents of missing children

    Yes but " Missing Children"  is not the same as knowing your son decided of his own free will to go in search of pastures new. This was simply a metaphorical "death" and a metaphorical "lost". the father was using idioms which was understood as the common parlance of the time. 
  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 5,474
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5
    --> @Stephen
    I am still waiting for your explanation as to what it means to be, as you put it _  "dead in Christ"
    Read post #15 again. Slooowly.
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,586
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @ethang5
    Nothing at post 15  explains what it means to be _  as you put it -  " dead in Christ".  Are you saying this "dead" is simply a spiritual "dead"? and are you saying that to be "sleeping"   simply  means alive but  not being aware or accepting of god?

    You see, FK ALL you have posted thus far makes any sense on it own without explanation.  Why are you afraid to simply explain what  it is these biblical  terms actually mean. I have given my take on them, you don't agree, yet fail to tell me in your own  words what theses words and terms actually means to you, a Christian.

    So again when your ready princess. 
  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 5,474
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5
    --> @Stephen
    Post #12 - He doesn't know that "asleep" is the term used for the dead in Christ. But of course, his ignorance causes him no 
    caution.

    Nothing at post 15  explains what it means to be _  as you put it -  " dead in Christ"

    All believers in Christ are called asleep when dead. Repeated in the thread trice.

    Christians do not die because they have received eternal life and will be awakened by his Glorious Majesty, Jesus Christ at His coming.

    Why are you afraid to simply explain what  it is these biblical  terms actually mean.
    Ask yourself. Is it harder to explain or to answer questions? Why are you afraid to answer questions?
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,586
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @ethang5
    Nothing at post 15  explains what it means to be _  as you put it -  " dead in Christ"


    All believers in Christ are called asleep when dead. Repeated in the thread trice.

    I see , so it is only your belief then. Which proves and explains absolutely FK ALL!!!!

    But going by your own explanation as to what "dead" means, explain to me -  what  "let the dead bury their own dead " mean to you then?

    Luke 9:60 New International Version (NIV)
    60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”


  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 5,474
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5
    --> @Stephen
    I see , so it is only your belief then. Which proves and explains absolutely FK ALL!!!!
    Lol. I gave you bible verses and you conclude it's only my belief?

    But going by your own explanation as to what "dead" means,
    It is the bible's explanation homer, not mine.

    explain to me -  what  "let the dead bury their own dead " mean to you then?
    Jesus made what is called a pun nedward. He played off the word "dead", using it literally and spiritually in one sentence.

    "Let the spiritually dead bury their literal dead."

    But your reading comprehension was so poor, you thought Jesus was "lying".

    You need to either learn more, or drop your anti-theist militancy. Being ignorant and aggressive is a bad combination for anyone.

  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4,586
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    explain to me -  what  "let the dead bury their own dead " mean to you then?
    He played off the word "dead", using it literally and spiritually in one sentence.

    "Let the spiritually dead bury their literal dead."

    That's correct!.  It simply means the "spiritually" dead doesn't it. Why has it taken so long for you to recognize and admit that simple  fact.    Jesus says it literally but meaning ONLY in the spiritual sense of the word. Even Clowns and Jesters have know this to be the case for thousands of years.


    As did the father of the lost "dead" son. As did a certain man's "dead" Daughter. As did the widow of the "dead" son as did the sister of the "dead" Lazarus. As did those disciples when they said  "come that we may die with him". They are all references to someone being spirituality dead  and not literally ready for the grave dead. They are words spoken metaphorically  using idioms , the language of the time.

    And as I explained above, and on many other of my  threads,  once we understand that we are only speaking in the spiritual sense, then 'let the dead bury the dead" is easily understandable and  explainable. But you have ignored this time and time again. And you even laughed when I stated it time and time again. You also have denied it many times when I have put it forward as an explanation, but now you have finally been forced to admit that these people were not literally "dead" at all but only "dead" in spirit.  











  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 5,474
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5
    --> @Stephen
    That's correct!.  It simply means the "spiritually" dead doesn't it. 
    No. In this particular case, it means both.

    Jesus says it literally but meaning ONLY in the spiritual sense of the word.
    No sir. Sometimes it is metaphor, and sometimes it is literal. It doesn't have to always be only one or the other.

    As did the widow of the "dead" son as did the sister of the "dead" Lazarus. As did those disciples when they said  "come that we may die with him".
    Nope. Those cases were literal. But it requires reading comprehension above 5th grade level.

    once we understand that we are only speaking in the spiritual sense, then 'let the dead bury the dead" is easily understandable and  explainable.
    You are just ignorant of the context. The disciples needed to go to a funeral. Jesus said let the unbelievers (spiritually dead) bury their dead (literally dead). You probably read it and didn't understand it.

    And you even laughed when I stated it time and time again. 
    Your ignorant militancy was funny.

    but now you have finally been forced to admit that these people were not literally "dead" at all but only "dead" in spirit
    Which people goober? There are several verses in question. Sometimes "dead" is a metaphor, sometimes, it is literal. Like most confused atheists, you think it must always be one or the other.

    Add that to your general ignorance of the context and your poor reading comprehension, and you don't have a chance.

    You will learn tho.