Reasons To Believe

Author: Salixes ,

Topic's posts

Read-only
Posts in total: 24
  • Salixes
    Salixes avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 494
    1
    1
    3
    Salixes avatar
    Salixes
    Reasons To Believe In God:

     * To take control over and manipulate others for one's own self-serving ends.

     * For cultural or family pressure reasons through naivety, gullibility or vulnerability.

     * Out of sheer ignorance and arrogance to satisfy a selfish distorted ego.



    Reason Not To Believe In God:

     * There is no God.

  • PGA2.0
    PGA2.0 avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 2,548
    3
    4
    7
    PGA2.0 avatar
    PGA2.0
    --> @Salixes
    Reasons To Believe In God:

     * To take control over and manipulate others for one's own self-serving ends.
    Or to give hope and make sense of existence and life's most important questions. 

     * For cultural or family pressure reasons through naivety, gullibility or vulnerability.
    Perhaps for most a big factor but not necessarily false, depending on the belief system (only one by logical necessity being true since they all contradict to some extent)

     * Out of sheer ignorance and arrogance to satisfy a selfish distorted ego.
    Or because of trying to find meaning without first presupposing God is a fools errand. I challenge you to try and establish meaning and I'll test you on how you know and why your limited subjective view is any better than any other.

    Reason Not To Believe In God:

     * There is no God.
    So says the fool, according to the Bible. I would agree with that assessment since a person's limited mind cannot know there is no God. They would have to be all-knowing to determine that, and it would be easy to show they are not all-knowing, thus they fail to provide what is necessary for knowing such things. 
  • Salixes
    Salixes avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 494
    1
    1
    3
    Salixes avatar
    Salixes
    --> @PGA2.0
    "....to give hope and make sense of existence and life's most important questions...."
    You mean: to give false (yes, it is false) hope through the used of guilt and fear of a promised afterlife.

    "Perhaps for most a big factor but not necessarily false, depending on the belief system" 
    Who are you kidding? All religions are based on false premises.

    "Or because of trying to find meaning without first presupposing God is a fools errand. I challenge you to try and establish meaning and I'll test you on how you know and why your limited subjective view is any better than any other."
    If Religious followers did not have the limited subjective view (that they are proven to have) they would not presuppose God in the first place.

    "So says the fool, according to the Bible. I would agree with that assessment since a person's limited mind cannot know there is no God. They would have to be all-knowing to determine that, and it would be easy to show they are not all-knowing, thus they fail to provide what is necessary for knowing such things." 
    It looks so nice reciting religious rhetoric doesn't it?
    But you are really insulting the intelligence of anybody with more than half a brain who have done their research to discover it is half-wits who try to preach a load of superstitious, mythological crap to the rest of the world on the false pretexts that it is true and they are not deluded.
  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 4,457
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5
    --> @Salixes
    it is half-wits who try to preach a load of superstitious, mythological crap...
    No one here preaches more, or more often than you.

    But if "wit" refers to humor, you aren't up to half yet.
  • PGA2.0
    PGA2.0 avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 2,548
    3
    4
    7
    PGA2.0 avatar
    PGA2.0
    --> @Salixes
    "....to give hope and make sense of existence and life's most important questions...."
    You mean: to give false (yes, it is false) hope through the used of guilt and fear of a promised afterlife.
    No, you are projecting your religious atheistic worldview into Christianity.

    "Perhaps for most a big factor but not necessarily false, depending on the belief system" 
    Who are you kidding? All religions are based on false premises.
    How do you know?

    "Or because of trying to find meaning without first presupposing God is a fools errand. I challenge you to try and establish meaning and I'll test you on how you know and why your limited subjective view is any better than any other."
    If Religious followers did not have the limited subjective view (that they are proven to have) they would not presuppose God in the first place.
    All worldviews start with presuppositions. You either start with being or you start with chance happenstance; intent of willy-nilly chaos; mind or matter; intelligence or indifference. 

    "So says the fool, according to the Bible. I would agree with that assessment since a person's limited mind cannot know there is no God. They would have to be all-knowing to determine that, and it would be easy to show they are not all-knowing, thus they fail to provide what is necessary for knowing such things." 
    It looks so nice reciting religious rhetoric doesn't it?
    But you are really insulting the intelligence of anybody with more than half a brain who have done their research to discover it is half-wits who try to preach a load of superstitious, mythological crap to the rest of the world on the false pretexts that it is true and they are not deluded.
    I get it. Generally speaking then, it appears atheists are elitists! To them, only those who do not believe in God or any formal religion have a brain.
  • ludofl3x
    ludofl3x avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,210
    2
    2
    2
    ludofl3x avatar
    ludofl3x
    --> @PGA2.0
    All worldviews start with presuppositions.

    How do we choose which to start with? And what accounts for the change in the way people assess their own suppositions, given that many people move from one to another (allowing of course that "I don't know" is in fact a presupposition according to your terms, which I disagree with)?
  • PGA2.0
    PGA2.0 avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 2,548
    3
    4
    7
    PGA2.0 avatar
    PGA2.0
    --> @ludofl3x
    All worldviews start with presuppositions.

    How do we choose which to start with?
    I think there could be many answers to that question. Your cultural environment could influence you; your parents; reading; hearing from a close friend; through education; the media; entertainment, etc.


    And what accounts for the change in the way people assess their own suppositions, given that many people move from one to another (allowing of course that "I don't know" is in fact a presupposition according to your terms, which I disagree with)?
    For some, it is the reasonableness and logic of a belief system until they come up against something in that belief that they cannot reconcile that affects the core suppositions, the building blocks the entire system rests upon. Once those are tested and found wanting there are only two choices, IMO. Leave the belief and build on another one or live with it knowing that it is not true. Sometimes people prefer the latter because they have invested so much into that belief system and it is a crutch for them.

    I don't think many choose by feeling alone although I am not saying this can't be the case. 
  • ludofl3x
    ludofl3x avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,210
    2
    2
    2
    ludofl3x avatar
    ludofl3x
    --> @PGA2.0
    Your cultural environment could influence you; your parents; reading; hearing from a close friend; through education; the media; entertainment, etc.

    Would "actively taught at a very suggestible age" be among these reasons? This is often how american Christianity is transmitted. The null position that you're calling a pre-supposition is not taught this way, almost at all. The null position often comes from ideas like "Well, if I'm a Christian and I'm going to heaven, and my girlfriend is Jewish, she'd be going to hell, wait, how do I know I'm right and she's wrong?" lines of questioning. In other words, I find that religious positions and presuppositions are taught at a fundamental time in a person's development, while atheist / null positions are almost uniquely arrived at through independent thought. I don't think 'null' is presupposed in almost any case, it's almost always concluded, whereas religious positions, Christians or otherwise, are often the result of childhood inculcation. 

    Leave the belief and build on another one or live with it knowing that it is not true. Sometimes people prefer the latter because they have invested so much into that belief system and it is a crutch for them.

    I don't think many choose by feeling alone although I am not saying this can't be the case. 
    Are you saying you think many people who living with a belief knowing it's not true are doing so out of personal discomfort with the alternative? 
  • PGA2.0
    PGA2.0 avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 2,548
    3
    4
    7
    PGA2.0 avatar
    PGA2.0
    --> @ludofl3x
    Your cultural environment could influence you; your parents; reading; hearing from a close friend; through education; the media; entertainment, etc.

    Would "actively taught at a very suggestible age" be among these reasons?
    I don't see why not. That is reasonable to believe. 

    This is often how american Christianity is transmitted.
    That, however, does not disqualify it from being true. 

    The null position that you're calling a pre-supposition is not taught this way, almost at all. The null position often comes from ideas like "Well, if I'm a Christian and I'm going to heaven, and my girlfriend is Jewish, she'd be going to hell, wait, how do I know I'm right and she's wrong?" lines of questioning. In other words, I find that religious positions and presuppositions are taught at a fundamental time in a person's development, while atheist / null positions are almost uniquely arrived at through independent thought. I don't think 'null' is presupposed in almost any case, it's almost always concluded, whereas religious positions, Christians or otherwise, are often the result of childhood inculcation. 
    Sure, that can be the case. The heart of the issue is where a person stands with God and what they truly believe. Do they truly trust Jesus as their Lord and Savior? Many people profess but not everyone trusts Jesus for who He is and what He has done on behalf of those who will believe. 


    Leave the belief and build on another one or live with it knowing that it is not true. Sometimes people prefer the latter because they have invested so much into that belief system and it is a crutch for them.

    I don't think many choose by feeling alone although I am not saying this can't be the case. 
    Are you saying you think many people who living with a belief knowing it's not true are doing so out of personal discomfort with the alternative? 


    That for sure can be the case. An unbeliever can be someone who does not want to admit God because they know that they can no longer justify their sinful behaviour, so they suppress God by not facing the fact of His existence or ignoring Him until their consciences become seared. 

     

    Many who don't confirm Christianity by its evidence but still trust in the Savior based on feelings alone may still be saved because they trust in His word and who He is. They know who they have believed in and know He is able to save them and doesn't need the external confirmations, so they make poor apologists in presenting the evidence but their lifestyles reflect their inner conviction. 
  • ludofl3x
    ludofl3x avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,210
    2
    2
    2
    ludofl3x avatar
    ludofl3x
    --> @PGA2.0
    That, however, does not disqualify it from being true. 

    Not in the slightest, no, but it does differentiate it from the null position and perhaps as importantly it doesn't differentiate it from any other religion on earth. You presuppose Jesus, a hindu presupposes whatever the hindu pantheon looks like, an aboriginee presupposes aboriginal gods, and greeks presupposed their pantheon. These would all start from exactly the same starting line. It goes to my question of how do you choose which presupposition is the right one to start from. 

    The null position that you're calling a pre-supposition is not taught this way, almost at all. The null position often comes from ideas like "Well, if I'm a Christian and I'm going to heaven, and my girlfriend is Jewish, she'd be going to hell, wait, how do I know I'm right and she's wrong?" lines of questioning. In other words, I find that religious positions and presuppositions are taught at a fundamental time in a person's development, while atheist / null positions are almost uniquely arrived at through independent thought. I don't think 'null' is presupposed in almost any case, it's almost always concluded, whereas religious positions, Christians or otherwise, are often the result of childhood inculcation. 
    Sure, that can be the case. The heart of the issue is where a person stands with God and what they truly believe. Do they truly trust Jesus as their Lord and Savior? Many people profess but not everyone trusts Jesus for who He is and what He has done on behalf of those who will believe. 
    Well, if one presupposes Jesus. If one doesn't presuppose anything (or perhaps in your lexicon, presupposes nothing), then that's in no way the heart of any issue. It's certainly not an issue for hindus, jews, muslims, aboriginees, scientologists...
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @PGA2.0
    make sense of existence and life's most important questions. 

    And what are life's most important questions?
  • ludofl3x
    ludofl3x avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,210
    2
    2
    2
    ludofl3x avatar
    ludofl3x
    --> @Stephen
    I've had this discussion about six times with him, don't get him started . His claim is that he can make sense of who are we, why is there something rather than nothing, why are we here, what started the universe, why is right right and wrong wrong...except he doesn't make any sense of them. He simply says "because Jesus is real," which in no way explains anything. "Why is the universe here?" answer "Well because Jesus put it here so we can worship him and he can threaten us with torture!" 



  • PGA2.0
    PGA2.0 avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 2,548
    3
    4
    7
    PGA2.0 avatar
    PGA2.0
    --> @Stephen
    They are, Stephen,

    1) What are we?
    2) Who am I?
    3) Why am I here?
    4) What difference does it make?
    5) How can I be sure or what is necessary for surety?
    6) What happens to me when I physically die.

    How you or I answer these is how you or I will live your or my life IF you or I am being consistent to what we state and not lying to yourself or myself.
  • PGA2.0
    PGA2.0 avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 2,548
    3
    4
    7
    PGA2.0 avatar
    PGA2.0
    --> @ludofl3x
    Your cultural environment could influence you; your parents; reading; hearing from a close friend; through education; the media; entertainment, etc.

    Would "actively taught at a very suggestible age" be among these reasons?
    Most definitely and the Word of God says to train a person up in the faith when they are young so that they will not easily depart from it. 

    Deuteronomy 6:6-9 (NASB)
    These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

    and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    This is often how american Christianity is transmitted.
    For many, yes, and biblically so!

    The null position that you're calling a pre-supposition is not taught this way, almost at all. The null position often comes from ideas like "Well, if I'm a Christian and I'm going to heaven, and my girlfriend is Jewish, she'd be going to hell, wait, how do I know I'm right and she's wrong?" lines of questioning. In other words, I find that religious positions and presuppositions are taught at a fundamental time in a person's development, while atheist / null positions are almost uniquely arrived at through independent thought. I don't think 'null' is presupposed in almost any case, it's almost always concluded, whereas religious positions, Christians or otherwise, are often the result of childhood inculcation.
    While this can be the case, it is the foundational ideas that most influence us that we tend to cling to until something happens to test those foundations of our thinking. From kindergarten through college and university, the student is indoctrinated by a secular worldview and belief system. Naturally, when that is taught that is what is turned to in order to find answers. Thus, most continually build on the secular foundation. How well does it answer the ultimate questions of life? It fails miserably.

    Leave the belief and build on another one or live with it knowing that it is not true. Sometimes people prefer the latter because they have invested so much into that belief system and it is a crutch for them.

    I don't think many choose by feeling alone although I am not saying this can't be the case. 
    Are you saying you think many people who living with a belief knowing it's not true are doing so out of personal discomfort with the alternative?


    That is not what I am saying in that sentence but yes, I do believe that is often the case, especially with Christianity. Christianity means you are not sovereign, you do not have the final say. You are morally accountable. That is scary for those who know they have done wrong. So, as Romans 1 says, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness. 

    What I am saying with that particular sentence is that some people who believe in God are willing to take Him exclusively on His word and do not need the other external verification. The eternal verification is often an apologetic or apology for the unbeliever, but it also strengthens our faith. 
  • Salixes
    Salixes avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 494
    1
    1
    3
    Salixes avatar
    Salixes
    --> @PGA2.0
    What I am saying with that particular sentence is that some people who believe in God are willing to take Him exclusively on His word and do not need the other external verification. The eternal verification is often an apologetic or apology for the unbeliever, but it also strengthens our faith. 
    That is the most stupid and ignorantly arrogant statement anyone could ever make.

    Where do you think you get "God's word" came from?

    From external verification, that's where.

    So, you are using external verification to reinforce that external verification.

    And what may I ask is the external verification?
  • Mopac
    Mopac avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 7,293
    3
    4
    7
    Mopac avatar
    Mopac
    The Supreme and Ultimate Reality exists, and The Supreme and Ultimate Reality is God.

    Those who put their faith in lying vanities forsake their own salvation.

  • Mopac
    Mopac avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 7,293
    3
    4
    7
    Mopac avatar
    Mopac
    The Truth is what sets you free.

    Those who receive no love of The Truth will be cursed with strong delusion, and be made a slave to sin.


  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @PGA2.0

    make sense of existence and life's most important questions. 

    And what are life's most important questions?



    They are, Stephen,

    1) What are we?
    Why is that an important question?



    (2) Who am I?
    I don't see that as an important question.



    3) Why am I here?

    Why is that important?


    4) What difference does it make?

    That is your best question so far and the answer from my stand point is that it makes no difference whatsoever.



    5) How can I be sure or what is necessary for surety?

    That makes no sense to me at all. Sure of what?


    6) What happens to me when I physically die.

    That question is not important to me and neither should it be to you. 



    How you or I answer these is how you or I will live your or my life IF you or I am being consistent to what we state and not lying to yourself or myself.

    Life changes all the time as do opinions and beliefs. 


    Now you tell me. Why did your god create anything, at all,  in the first place?

  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 4,457
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5



    Why am I here?

    Why is that important?

    Now you tell me. Why did your god create anything, at all,  in the first place? 
    Sounds suspiciously like, "why am I here?"
  • ludofl3x
    ludofl3x avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 1,210
    2
    2
    2
    ludofl3x avatar
    ludofl3x
    --> @PGA2.0
    Most definitely and the Word of God says to train a person up in the faith when they are young so that they will not easily depart from it. 

    Seems insidious to me, like a touch brainwash-y, and that it lacks the confidence to withstand someone who can reason for themselves, unencumbered by the naivete of youth.

     How well does it answer the ultimate questions of life? It fails miserably.
    You've said this in so many topics, yet you have never once demonstrated that you have answers through Christianity for these "ultimate questions." You also never explain why these "ultimate questions" are "ultimate questions," but that's a separate question.


  • EtrnlVw
    EtrnlVw avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 2,211
    2
    3
    4
    EtrnlVw avatar
    EtrnlVw
    --> @Salixes
    Reasons To Believe In God:

     * To take control over and manipulate others for one's own self-serving ends.

    You are always so one-sided you never leave any room for others to explain themselves. Even when they do you don't care, you're not really here for debate or discussion more than you're here just to preach. Instead of making assertions and blanket statements try asking first, then argue your opinions AFTER the person answers. At least you'll get a chance to at least read someone's reason to believe in God heck, you might even find their answer as logical as your own interpretations of life. Surprise surprise! the answer you asserted is so far from the reason I believe in God I couldn't even begin to tell you how absurd that is. Wanna try again or do you want to ask first?

     * For cultural or family pressure reasons through naivety, gullibility or vulnerability.

    We all learn from others before us whether what they teach is wrong or right this is not just relevant to religious thought, you always single out religious beliefs because of your anger and bias towards it. You fail to see any of the truth or beauty that could be there simply because you despise it. No one will therefore ever take you seriously because it's so damn obvious you have such colored glasses on.
    There's not even any reason to ever show you any truth or beauty behind it because your frustration will overshadow it, tell me then what point there is even to discuss this with you? When and at what point are you open to any of it? if God exists how could any of us ever begin to communicate that with you at a level where you will listen and consider things?

    I don't think anyone would argue that there's a lot of stupidity and falsity in the religious arena, duality is not exempt from this observation of life but at what point are you willing to hear and consider the good sides?? the sides that make sense and the sides that have freedom and logical ideas or interpretations, the side that has nothing to do with controlling people or discriminating against others?

     * Out of sheer ignorance and arrogance to satisfy a selfish distorted ego.

    Oh yeah baby you got me lol! it's not the guy that made this silly assumption and parades his biases all over the forum that has the huge ego issues and selfishness problems nahhhh…..it's all just us!

    Reason Not To Believe In God:

     * To take control over and manipulate others for one's own self-serving ends.

     * For cultural or family pressure reasons through naivety, gullibility or vulnerability.

     * Out of sheer ignorance and arrogance to satisfy a selfish distorted ego.

    Do you like these assertions when they are pointed back at you? to where you can then claim you're always persecuted and at the suffering end of religious control and thought?? it is easy to make such statements and assumptions about other worldviews but how much are they actually worth in a debate or conversation?

  • PGA2.0
    PGA2.0 avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 2,548
    3
    4
    7
    PGA2.0 avatar
    PGA2.0
    --> @Stephen
    make sense of existence and life's most important questions. 

    And what are life's most important questions?



    They are, Stephen,

    1) What are we?
    Why is that an important question?
    There are many reasons but I will give you one. If we are creatures created by the biblical God then we have an obligation to live according to His will since He knows best and we will be held accountable since He is just and good. 


    (2) Who am I?
    I don't see that as an important question.
    Who you are as a being determines how you respond to things. 

    3) Why am I here?

    Why is that important?
    Is there a reason I exist or am I just a chance happenstance and there is no intent behind my existence? If there is no reason then what does it matter how I live my life? If my life means something and I will be held accountable then it matters much. 

    4) What difference does it make?

    That is your best question so far and the answer from my stand point is that it makes no difference whatsoever.
    Then your philosophy may not reflect such a belief. If it makes no difference the eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die, thus, do whatever you can get away with. 


    5) How can I be sure or what is necessary for surety?

    That makes no sense to me at all. Sure of what?


    6) What happens to me when I physically die.

    That question is not important to me and neither should it be to you. 



    How you or I answer these is how you or I will live your or my life IF you or I am being consistent to what we state and not lying to yourself or myself.

    Life changes all the time as do opinions and beliefs.
    Then you should not be able to have a surety. If you do on matters then it tells me that your worldview is inconsistent with its foundational starting points or core presuppositions. Thus, how do you justify it? 

    What is more, you witness a uniformity in nature - things remain the same. In a chance happenstance universe, devoid of intent, why do you think that is the case? Why is the universe sustained and maintained on such a lack of principles of blind indifferent chance happenstance? No reason, but you believe it can sustain itself via such a foolish worldview that owns its being to what? What? Such a worldview that does not start with being is devoid of intentionality. And you roll the proverbial dice every day as to whether things will be the same today as yesterday. Your approach is different and inconsistent with your core beliefs. So, if you want to be irrational about such things it is your business. It speaks volumes to the sense of such a worldview.  

    Now you tell me. Why did your god create anything, at all,  in the first place?
    For His pleasure and purpose. He wanted to create creatures who could choose to love and know Him, or not.
  • Salixes
    Salixes avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 494
    1
    1
    3
    Salixes avatar
    Salixes
    --> @PGA2.0
    Or to give hope and make sense of existence and life's most important questions. 
    And, such hope is false since there is not one ounce of evidence to justify such hope. Nor do we need religion to make sense of "life's most important questions" Think about it....who the heck ever said there was no sense to life's most important questions? 
    You guessed it....a theologian intent of inventing a strawman for his own ends.

  • ethang5
    ethang5 avatar
    Debates: 1
    Forum posts: 4,457
    3
    3
    6
    ethang5 avatar
    ethang5
    --> @Salixes
    No evidence = false?

    For thousands of years there was no evidence of Pluto. Was Pluto false?

    For hundreds of years, there was no evidence of microwaves. Was microwaves false?

    There is no evidence of extraterrestrial life. Is it false that aliens exist?

    This is a logical fallacy that conflates "No evidence" and "evidence against". All one needs to fall to this fallacy is a low IQ, and militant anti-theist bias.

    What's sadder, is that even without the logical fallacy, the argument still fails because there IS evidence of God.

    Now watch. Ol' Sal will ignore the logical fallacy and insist on the evidence of God.

    Failing to admit that even if it were true that there was no evidence of God, his argument would still be a logical fallacy. It would still fail.

    Proponents of this fallacy don't care about logic, they are motivated by bias.