Why Jews reject Jesus

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09.22.18 05:15PM

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Added 09.22.18 05:15PM

Oh no!

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#3

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09.22.18 05:32PM

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--> @David

I haven't examined your link yet, I'll reply to your summary.....

Let's pretend the Jews have no reason to believe Jesus is/was the Messiah, but do they need to reject the example and teachings of Jesus of the Gospels, why would they not believe or support any spiritual principle Jesus taught? IMO Jesus resurfaced the face of the Jews religious beliefs single-handedly, and appropriately allowing for much more truth and freedom. Next question (perhaps to Jews), who was that "Messiah" the Jews believe in and whom will fill those shoes besides Jesus? Lol I mean it's pretty obvious Jesus was the promised DELIVERER, that's what Messiah means. The name of Jesus is hardly anything to not recognize as a Messiah.

The Messiah will be purely human - not God;

Jesus' body WAS purely human, however His soul and message was that of God's own. Jesus actually hardly ever went around proclaiming He was God, rather always spoke of the Father, and when He was questioned He said Him and the Father were one, that's true if you understand unity on a spiritual level.

Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic requirements;

Really lol? you mean He may not have fulfilled a few misconceptions?

Jesus did not fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies;

Ouch, that's entirely not true and if it were, we wouldn't have anything to consider in this topic. Jesus would have never been acclaimed Messiah.

Jesus led people away from the Torah instead of towards it; and

Deliverer not supporter.

The concept of the Trinity is completely foreign to Judaism.

Not that the concept of the Trinity is not Christian doctrine, but can you show where Jesus uses that term? if Jesus did not use that term perhaps He meant something different....however, the so-called Trinity also lies in the understanding of unity. Unity binds things together as one unit and one purpose.

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#4

Stephen

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Stephen

09.22.18 05:38PM

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Summary
The Messiah will be purely human - not God;

It was. A freedom fighter or terrorist depending on who side you happen to be on in 1st century Palestine.

Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic requirements;

He didn't on the face of it, but when the surface of the New Testament is scratched, It reveals something quite opposite.

Jesus did not fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies;

Tricky that one. there was the donkey and the scourging .

Jesus led people away from the Torah instead of towards it; and

I am not sure Jesus did this , I believe this was down to Paul.

The concept of the Trinity is completely foreign to Judaism.

And so it should be. It is an historical fact that the idea of the trinity. indeed, Jesus' divinity was decided by vote at the council of Nicea, some three hundred years after Jesus himself had lived.

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#5

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09.22.18 05:39PM

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Added 09.22.18 05:39PM

--> @EtrnlVw

Let's pretend the Jews

In a pretend world the pretender is undisputed, just like you in yours. Isn't it fortunate that real people don't exist in your pretend world.

Carry on.

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#6

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09.22.18 05:39PM

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--> @David

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Jesus didn't even need any scriptures proclaiming or supporting that He was the Messiah, it's obvious in His example, legacy and the accuracy of His spirituality that He indeed fulfilled the role of a Messiah.

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#7

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09.22.18 05:39PM

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--> @disgusted

That wasn't an argument, try again. Offer something or go play with Ethan.

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#8

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09.22.18 05:40PM

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--> @EtrnlVw

It would though have been really nice if he ever existed in reality, I'm sure you'll agree.

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#9

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09.22.18 05:41PM

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Added 09.22.18 05:41PM

--> @disgusted

Try again.

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#10

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09.22.18 05:42PM

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--> @EtrnlVw

Yep pretend worlds are never ever to be considered an argument.

Why then do you habitually present your pretend worlds as such?

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#11

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09.22.18 05:53PM

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Added 09.22.18 05:53PM

--> @disgusted

This video presents an excellent case on why Jews do not believe in Jesus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBSRiwy4T7k

Summary
The Messiah will be purely human - not God;
Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic requirements;
Jesus did not fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies;
Jesus led people away from the Torah instead of towards it; and
The concept of the Trinity is completely foreign to Judaism.

You'll have to ask Virtuoso troll. Lol, bye bye.

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#12

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09.22.18 05:58PM

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--> @EtrnlVw

You'll have to ask Virtuoso troll. Lol, bye bye.

Calling people trolls is a personal attack. I won't report this one, but in the future you need to calm down.

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#13

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09.22.18 06:01PM

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--> @EtrnlVw

It's regrettable that you didn't bother to cite anything I wrote and yet personally attacked me as being a troll, your inability to discuss in a civilised fashion the subject under discussion is an indictment of the value your education has in a civilised society.

I'm so sad for you.

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#14

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09.22.18 06:04PM

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--> @Goldtop

Where was I not calm? if you guys have nothing to add to the topic you're trolls.

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#15

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09.22.18 06:09PM

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--> @EtrnlVw

you're trolls.

THAT personal attack has been reported. Your behavior needs to change immediately.

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#16

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09.22.18 06:10PM

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--> @disgusted

Please make sure you report his personal attacks.

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#17

ethang5

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ethang5

09.23.18 06:39AM

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--> @EtrnlVw

You were calm. And your reply was well thought out. Good post.

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#18

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09.23.18 08:35AM

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--> @ethang5

As if you are any sort of judge. hahahahahah

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#19

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09.23.18 01:20PM

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--> @EtrnlVw

1. do they need to reject the example and teachings of Jesus of the Gospels, why would they not believe or support any spiritual principle Jesus taught?

1a. Because nothing he added is useful. We have sources of actual authority to rely on. Why listen to some random itinerant teacher who was taking from another source that we already have? And when he changed things, why follow a person who is not in a position to change things?

2. Next question (perhaps to Jews), who was that "Messiah" the Jews believe in and whom will fill those shoes besides Jesus? Lol I mean it's pretty obvious Jesus was the promised DELIVERER, that's what Messiah means. The name of Jesus is hardly anything to not recognize as a Messiah.

2a. Messiah (in English) comes from "moshiach" in Hebrew which means "one who is anointed", not "deliverer". High priests and kings were anointed with a particular oil. Jesus wasn't, nor was he eligible to be either a king or a high priest. We await a king from the proper lineage and of the proper personal characteristics.

3. Jesus' body WAS purely human, however His soul and message was that of God's own. Jesus actually hardly ever went around proclaiming He was God, rather always spoke of the Father, and when He was questioned He said Him and the Father were one, that's true if you understand unity on a spiritual level.

3a. You can try to make the argument that the body was human but the soul wasn't, but Judaism's conception of the messiah is that he is a full on human in body and soul.

4. Really lol? you mean He may not have fulfilled a few misconceptions?

4a. Are you saying that Jews don't understand their own texts? There are some very clear expectations and he didn't meet them.

5. Ouch, that's entirely not true and if it were, we wouldn't have anything to consider in this topic. Jesus would have never been acclaimed Messiah.

5a. What Jesus might have "fulfilled" were of 3 categories -- the first were prophecies that were so general that many people fulfilled them (where someone is born - lots of people are born in lots of places), the second are intentional (mis)appropriations of biblical text said to apply to him (wait, Isaiah said that and Jesus said it?! WOW!) including some mis-statements and misinterpretations (the Hebrew word for virgin is Betula...) and the third are textual citations which simply weren't ever biblical prophecies but which, it was decided by non-Jews, were "shadows of things to come" (Jews sacrificed a lamb, Jesus was called a "lamb" so the biblical sacrifices must have been a hint to Jesus!). Choplogic, all of them.

6. Deliverer not supporter.

6a. This is tougher because Jesus does make claims about not coming to end Jewish law and yet people still say that he delivered people from the yoke of the laws. They want to see him as supporter of the Jewish legal system and yet a rebel against it.

7. Not that the concept of the Trinity is not Christian doctrine, but can you show where Jesus uses that term? if Jesus did not use that term perhaps He meant something different....however, the so-called Trinity also lies in the understanding of unity. Unity binds things together as one unit and one purpose.

7a. What is foreign to Judaism is the idea that God has any "parts" which need to be united. Unfortunately, people like to point to the word "echad" and say that it means "a combination of parts, so God is divisible" but that isn't always so. Sometimes, one means "one unit" and sometimes, "one" means "indivisible" and even "unique." That's the "one" which applies to God.

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#20

Castin

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Castin

09.23.18 07:36PM

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--> @EtrnlVw

Let's pretend the Jews have no reason to believe Jesus is/was the Messiah, but do they need to reject the example and teachings of Jesus of the Gospels, why would they not believe or support any spiritual principle Jesus taught?

Good question. I'm an atheist and I think many of Jesus's teachings have value in and of themselves.

I don't think a Jewish person necessarily has to disagree with everything Jesus said. It's simply that they believe those teachings have no authority. In my experience this is often the case when you ask a religious person to embrace values or notions that are not in their holy text. The holy text is the recognized word of God; anything outside it is not the word of God. Which I'm sure has something to do with why so many people reinterpret the text to get the meaning they want from it, rather than create a new text or religion.

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#21

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09.23.18 07:36PM

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--> @rosends

Because nothing he added is useful.

I respect your beliefs Rosends but I'm going to stop you right there. To me this is beyond anything that I wish to debate and is a very inadequate statement for ANY spiritual person to make and IMO is quite unrealistic. If you don't find the Gospels and the teachings of Jesus "useful" and yet find your OT txts as somehow useful we will just have to leave this as our own opinions. But I do appreciate the response.

MESSIAH-

the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.

I have no issue with your meaning of the word as "anointed", perhaps they go hand in hand. What problem do you have with "deliverer" as mentioned in the definition? does anointed somehow contradict deliverer?

What is foreign to Judaism is the idea that God has any "parts" which need to be united.

I never said that. However, how do you believe God expresses Himself? if God is omnipresent and has no embodiment what does God do to reach the lower worlds? God does this through incarnations. I know that's foreign to your beliefs but we are not talking about just the Jews beliefs.

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#22

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09.23.18 07:46PM

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--> @Castin

Good question. I'm an atheist and I think many of Jesus's teachings have value in and of themselves.

Which is why I was shocked when I read Rosends opinion. That seems a bit extreme to me to believe in the OT and then turn around and claim the Gospels are not useful. To me it's the opposite lol. Not many useful things in the OT txts that are practical. I love many things within it, but there is no comparison. I also love some of the OT character like Isaiah, but none of them have the power and pull of the Messiah.

I don't think a Jewish person necessarily has to disagree with everything Jesus said. It's simply that they believe those teachings have no authority. In my experience this is often the case when you ask a religious person to embrace values or notions that are not in their holy text. The holy text is the recognized word of God; anything outside it is not the word of God. Which I'm sure has something to do with why so many people reinterpret the text to get the meaning they want from it, rather than create a new text or religion.

To me, there is nothing that Jesus taught that needs to be rejected on a spiritual level. I think rather, that some people need to open themselves up a bit more. Let go of tradition in favor of truth and freedom. I find Jesus to be a great extension of the Hebrew OT works. It's my opinion but I've put the time in to have a realistic approach and opinion.

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#23

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09.23.18 07:53PM

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--> @EtrnlVw

"and is a very inadequate statement for ANY spiritual person to make and IMO is quite unrealistic. If you don't find the Gospels and the teachings of Jesus "useful" and yet find your OT txts as somehow useful we will just have to leave this as our own opinions. But I do appreciate the response. "

OK, we can leave it at that. Jesus stated material that can be found in the Talmud (as he was endorsing the Pharisaic view) so I get it from the Talmud, so his saying it is of no use. Jesus stated things that go contrary to Jewish law, so they are not of any use to me.

"MESSIAH-

the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible."

Saying he is a deliverer is very different from saying that "that's what Messiah means" which was your earlier claim. I'm not sure what you mean by "deliverer" -- Moses, I guess, delivered us from the bondage of Egypt, though actually, God did that. The promised king-messiah will not do things that are for God to do, that is, redeem us from the captivity of spiritual exile. My point was also that a number of people have been historically "anointed" and yet none of them would be called a "deliverer" so tying anointed and deliverer together seems uncalled for.

"if God is omnipresent and has no embodiment what does God do to reach the lower worlds? God does this through incarnations. I know that's foreign to your beliefs but we are not talking about just the Jews beliefs. "

An associated idea is not actually foreign. When God shows Moses a burning bush and speaks from within it, God isn't a bush. When God splits the sea, God isn't the sea. God's power, God's "voice" (as it were) make themselves known. And when God inspires a prophet to carry a message, the person is inspired by God to spread a message using his own (human) words. So I wouldn't call these "incarnations" (which means, based on its root, made into flesh, and God isn't) but manifestations maybe of God's will. A human might be inspired, but he isn't possessed by God's spirit, walking around like some puppet.

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#24

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09.23.18 07:55PM

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I don't think a Jewish person necessarily has to disagree with everything Jesus said. It's simply that they believe those teachings have no authority.

This to me comes across as double talk. The Jews are awaiting a Messiah to come and then turn around and claim nothing else could have authority other than the OT works.

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#25

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