If Not God Then Who?

Author: Stephen ,

Topic's posts

Posts in total: 58
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    No matter how many times I have pointed to god, creating, causing and doing bad/evil things, the apologist try their apologetic best to counter with " this is not gods doing"  OR god didn't create anything evil" etc etc .

    But never will they put forward an opinion or even a theory of where all of the bad and evil in the world originated. 

    I have claimed that the bible itself says that god "created all things" so everything bad  or evil created is all down to god..

    "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him"  - including all sickness and disease. mental illness, genetic errors and defects. Volcanoes that destroy towns and cities around the earth  that he created with faults that cause earth quakes and tidal waves killing MILLIONS in the process. Yes , all gods handy work  according to the bible itself. 



    But even this clear biblical evidence ( one of many) of god being the creator of "all things" is not enough to convince a theist that the word "all" means exactly what it says. No!  The theist would argue that the bible  -  believed by millions to be the unshakable truth of god - doesn't actually mean "ALL" when it states "ALL" and spew out all kinds of biblical verses and other claptrap that some how and for some reason they offer that "proves" that "all" in the bible doesn't actually mean "all.
    It is, by all accounts it seems, the fault of the atheist reader of these ambiguous scriptures for not understanding that words in the bible do not actually mean what they say with the best so far being that the word " kill " for instance,means something different to Christians than it does to any sane  non believer.

    Could  the Christians here, just for once,  explain to us where evil actually originated if it wasn't created by god? 

    Please be polite enough observe and adress the question with factual evidence. This doesn't mean posting and quoting billions of irrelevant biblical verses that have nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

  • EtrnlVw
    EtrnlVw avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 2,211
    2
    3
    4
    EtrnlVw avatar
    EtrnlVw
    --> @Stephen
    There's an obvious problem with this topic as usual, because of your ranting and overzealous posturing you ask questions then you leave no room for an answer. If you ask questions and want an actual answer leave all the unnecessary garbage out of the way. You ask believers a question then you go on about why and how they can't answer that question lol, I mean give us a break. But, even despite that and despite your depressive attitude I'll give you some things to chew on.

    First of all it's okay to blame God that evil exists in creation, big deal. But, there's more to the equation.

    Next, evil isn't an object or a thing that is created, it's either the result of an action or an action itself so in this sense evil is the resultant of an individuals intentions and actions.

    So while God can be blamed for creating an environment of duality, in other words an environment where we are free to choose good or evil deeds....we are responsible for our side of the equation and we are responsible for what we so in that environment.

    I'm sure you think it's cute and all to blame God for your mistakes you really didn't think this through very well and your immaturity reading scripture always proves you just can't handle it.

    But I'll say it again so there's not room for confusion.....there is a CO-responsibility for the presents of evil and yes God is included. God, for creating an environment where we are free to commit whatever actions we wish to take and are free to culminate our very own intentions and then ourselves, as the actual individual to make an evil choice or to harbor evil intentions.

    That's why in scripture it admits that God is responsible for evil and also while scripture has consequences for the individual who perpetrates evil, because it's not just God who is accountable it's also the individual.

    Let me clear this up again, evil is not an object that can be created, it is not a thing or a person it's an action or even an intention. So evil can't be created like an object that's stupid, the verse in Isaiah that claims God created evil is a poor way of relaying the truth, and it's a possible poor translation. However, when one weighs all the content in the Bible it's clear man is responsible for his actions, check this verse out....(and yes I'm going to post scripture even though you believe that should be exempt from an answer just to show you how this is balanced out)

    James 1
    13
    Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14
    But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15
    Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    16
    Do not err, my beloved brethren.
    17
    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
    18
    Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


    As for all your mumbo jumbo about God creating mental illnesses and "diseases" and what not, again those are not things so they are not included as things that God created. This is a cause and effect realm we exist in, meaning that there are causes and effects when dealing with genetic, health and the lack thereof. If you go out and get piss drunk and then wake up with a hangover don't blame God for creating hangovers, that's not how cause and effect work. 
    There are actual factors that deal in the world of physics and chemistry that cause problems related to the human states of mental and physical health. I'd be happy to link you to a very smart fella and Dr. I follow that can break all that down for you.
    Natural disasters is the same situation, God doesn't go around creating volcano eruptions lol, those are effects that have causes. If you want to blame God for creating a planet that has volcanic eruptions go ahead but they erupt for a reason and it's not to kill people. The smart thing to do is for humans not to build societies where natural disasters occur in the first place. I mean if you build a hut right at the base of a volcano and then blame God for the eruption that is pretty silly.

  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    There's an obvious problem with this topic as usual, because of your ranting and overzealous posturing you ask questions then you leave no room for an answer.

    No one is stopping you answering.

    You seem to have had no problem and have found many words in response but nothing that explains or answers the question that should be pretty straight - forward for all believers. You, I am assuming, do not lay the blame for the existence of evil at gods door, if that is the case, then who? is all I am asking.

    You ask believers a question then you go on about why and how they can't answer that question lol,

    Lol away sunshine. Is all I have politely asked is  those that are  interested  not clog up this thread with quotes and verses from the scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with the question. If any quoted verses are relevant, I will indeed take them into consideration before debunking them with your own scripture or simply agreeing with what has been produced and offered as an explanation. 




    But I'll say it again so there's not room for confusion.

    I agree. There certainly isn't.  Considering that once again god himself tells us the it was he who created "ALL evil" along with ALL other things in existence.  And you have the brass balls to tell me I haven't read the scriptures.

    As for all your mumbo jumbo about God creating mental illnesses and "diseases" and what not, again those are not things so they are not included as things that God created.



    Just as I predicted. You will only claim that your god created only the fluffy nice things. So let us take just one piece of my "mumbo jumbo" then.  

     The bible tells us that god created " the heavens and the earth.Genesis 1:1    It is also said  just 31 short verses after that "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. ." 1:31

    But it wasn't good at all was it. The earth is riddled with faults; (they will be the causes you mentioned). The earth  is also stretched and  pulled in all directions when certain planets in the heavens that the bible says he also created, line up and their proximity is closer to earth. YES, this was your gods creation that the bible says he was happy with and all of it was "good".

     
    Here is a list of earth quakes that have happened on the earth that god is said to have created, faults and all. I haven't included the body count.



    The scripture you have reproduced above doesn't explain where evil originated, it simply recognizes that evil  exists. This is a perfect example of what I mean by posting IRRELEVANT scripture to explain away the origins of evil. But the thing here you see, is that you have quite purposefully have left out what god himself has to say about the origin of evil:

    Isaiah 45:7 King James Version 
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".

    This is not to mention the other verses where god throws his hand up to possessing and creating "evil".

    God it is also said in the scripture sent an evil spirit to Saul, that he had created. 

    And ;

    “Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household".








  • RoderickSpode
    RoderickSpode avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 834
    2
    2
    2
    RoderickSpode avatar
    RoderickSpode
    --> @Stephen
    then who?

    Okay everyone. It's going to take "all" of to answer this. Maybe by the year 4056 we can complete it, but it'll take everyone's participation. I suggest we start out with the 50 States, then the Canadian provinces, then the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and go from there. We'll start with the State of California:

    Arnold Schwarzennegger, Clint Eastwood, Gina Hernandez, Kelly Washington, Vincent Nguyen, George Martinez, Jimmy O'Connell, Ira Washington, Cory Yashimoto......
  • EtrnlVw
    EtrnlVw avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 2,211
    2
    3
    4
    EtrnlVw avatar
    EtrnlVw
    --> @Stephen
    Isaiah 45:7 King James Version 
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".




    Go back and respond to the contents of my post, how did I know you were going to roll out the old Isaiah passage lol? I already addressed all that and then balanced it with another verse. All you ever do is avoid the answers and focus on the non-answers, look above at the sentences you highlighted lol, you dealt with zero of the actual answers and content, like usual good job Stevie. 

  • Melcharaz
    Melcharaz avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 426
    1
    4
    8
    Melcharaz avatar
    Melcharaz
    It was man who chose to sin and so evil comes upon those who perform evil. Humanity has no one to blame but its self. The sooner we acknowledge our sin, the sooner we can be forgiven. The greatest physical representation of evil looks us in the face when we see a mirror. 

  • Tyran_Osaur
    Tyran_Osaur avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 6
    0
    0
    0
    Tyran_Osaur avatar
    Tyran_Osaur
    --> @Stephen
    Please be polite enough observe and adress the question with factual evidence.
    I think that you will find that no matter which side of the fence you are on it is impossible to address the topic with factual evidence. Unless of course, you wish to play with semantics and say something like, "The fact is that Billy Graham said...."

    I have observed however, that creationists tend to take the two-way contradiction stance. It is acceptable to state that God created nature however when it comes to a different behavior, i.e. evil, oh no Jose, God did not create that.

    From a thinking atheist point of view of course, religion is the true personification of evil whereby those in authority use the supernatural in order to manipulate those who are naive, gullible and weak, for their own nefarious and self-centered gains.
  • zedvictor4
    zedvictor4 avatar
    Debates: 13
    Forum posts: 2,560
    3
    2
    3
    zedvictor4 avatar
    zedvictor4
    --> @Tyran_Osaur
    Well stated.


  • zedvictor4
    zedvictor4 avatar
    Debates: 13
    Forum posts: 2,560
    3
    2
    3
    zedvictor4 avatar
    zedvictor4
    --> @Stephen
    Why not work on the idea that a god was and a god perhaps will be again, but for now we are on our own.
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @Tyran_Osaur
    From a thinking atheist point of view of course, religion is the true personification of evil whereby those in authority use the supernatural in order to manipulate those who are naive, gullible and weak, for their own nefarious and self-centered gains.

     i couldn't agree more.
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @EtrnlVw
    Go back and respond to the contents of my post,

    I have. You have  just chosen ignored my responses or missed them altogether, I think the former.. You posted a few verses from James 1  that go  absolutely nowhere in explaining the origins of evil . I have simply countered your pointless and irrelevant verses with what god AND the scripture state themselves. In case you missed it:

    Isaiah 45:7 King James Version 
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".


    I even addressed your point where YOU prove my point  that god, creator "all things" has no control over his own creation;  where you went on your little pointless gnashing of teeth here when you stated : 

    EtrnlVw wrote; "Natural disasters is the same situation, God doesn't go around creating volcano eruptions lol, those are effects that have causes".

    I actually agreed with you and pointed out the flaws and faults in your gods creation being the "causes" that you mentioned, this of course comes after god had a good look around a "saw that it was all good".Genesis 1:31. But we can clearly see for ourselves, that all wasn't and isn't good at all is  it?     

    But I can see the mistake I  made . I didn't address my response to your post to you  personally and therefore you wouldn't have got a forum alert. My fault. I apologise.  So maybe if you would like to scroll up just a little to post three you will see that I have indeed responded and  addressed all of your pointless and irrelevant points that go  nowhere in explaining the origins of evil. I will re-post it later if you cannot managed to do  that.  But that said. If you are too idle to simple scroll up to post 3 above,  here is a quick summery of what other irrelevant points of yours that I addressed when you continued your rending of cloths and gnashing of teeth;

    "As for all your mumbo jumbo about God creating mental illnesses and "diseases"[.......]cause and effect [....] natural disasters [......] a very smart fella and Dr [.......] God doesn't go around creating volcano eruptions lol"

    All the above shows that the creator "of all things", had absolutely no control over his own creation . It wasn't "all good" and as  the bible states, and evil was created by god himself .Isaiah 45:7 King James Version 
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".






    how did I know you were going to roll out the old Isaiah passage lol?

    I don't know but I knew 100%  that you wouldn't. 





     All you ever do is avoid the answers


     I haven't avoided anything. I believe I addressed all your points GO TO POST 3 above.  And even after I politely asked posters not to post anything irrelevant to the question in the OP, I even commented on those irrelevant and pointless verses that you posted from James 1, explaining how irrelevant they were to this particular subject of the origins of evil.

    So. you don't have an answer to the question in the op, and  as predicted by me in the OP above post # 1,  you now will continue to deny that god didn't create evil as the scriptures and god himself clearly state he did.



  • Melcharaz
    Melcharaz avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 426
    1
    4
    8
    Melcharaz avatar
    Melcharaz

    Evil as in disruption of peace or calamity, God didnt create the concept of evil when lucifer first lifted himself up in pride, or when mankind disobeyed his direct commands. We made the choice.

  • Melcharaz
    Melcharaz avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 426
    1
    4
    8
    Melcharaz avatar
    Melcharaz
    So calamity comes on those who choose to do evil.
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @Melcharaz
    God didnt create the concept of evil.


     The bible doesn't agree with you. And you keep posting irrelevant posts that go nowhere to explaining where evil originated. 

    God said -  "I make peaceand create evilI the Lord do all these things". Isaiah 45:7.  There is also Lamentations 3:38 saying both evil and good come from god.




  • RoderickSpode
    RoderickSpode avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 834
    2
    2
    2
    RoderickSpode avatar
    RoderickSpode
    --> @Stephen
    From a thinking atheist point of view of course, religion is the true personification of evil whereby those in authority use the supernatural in order to manipulate those who are naive, gullible and weak, for their own nefarious and self-centered gains.

     i couldn't agree more.

    i.e., a (pseudo) intellectual version of who has the biggest penis. And a (maybe) slightly more mature version of my daddy can beat up your daddy.


  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @RoderickSpode
    i.e., a (pseudo) intellectual version of who has the biggest penis. And a (maybe) slightly more mature version of my daddy can beat up your daddy.
     Address the topic, please. I am not interested in your opinion concerning who's daddy has the biggest dick. grow up!

  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @Tyran_Osaur
     it is impossible to address the topic with factual evidence.

    I was asking for evidence from the actual bible and it  a fact that the bible exists.

    As explained. If we are expected to take the bible at face value and to be the truth,  then I am asking for biblical evidence for where it was that evil originated. Christians deny evil originated from god, but are shy to offer an alternative for its origin.

    Evil is recognised to exist by these biblical authors and the characters therein, Christians accept that there is evil to but what they point blank refuse to accept is that evil is indeed a creation of god........ when god himself admits in the bible to creating evil. Isaiah 45:7 No one else in the bible makes this claim. 

  • RoderickSpode
    RoderickSpode avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 834
    2
    2
    2
    RoderickSpode avatar
    RoderickSpode
    --> @Stephen
    I was addressing 2 specific posts. Are those 2 posts not on topic?

    But as far as what you're interested in, it's obvious not in finding answers, but making a statement to convince somebody other than the believers who've been giving answers here, and at least in one other thread. There were unacknowledged, or unanswered responses in that other thread. It's actually kind of puzzling why you abandoned another thread where this was topic was addressed, and started this new one.

    It's as if you were frustrated about the responses you were getting, and that you weren't convincing anyone, so you made this thread in hopes of getting attention from other posters due to fear that maybe that other thread wasn't getting noticed.

    One of the major themes, in your quest for whatever you're trying to forcefully prove, is your absolute refusal to understand that the translations from Hebrew and Greek to English needs to be many maticulously studied to get a proper understanding. If you don't do that, you're going to be like the ugly American who thinks he's speaking Spanish when he puts "el" in front of an English word, and "o" at the end of one.

    Have you ever watched a foreign movie with sub-titles? Sometimes there's no word that directly matches a word being translated for the sub-titles. So they end up choosing a word that they think would be the most suitable.

    Have you ever seen someone post a message in English on the internet that looked like jibberish? That's probably because they used google
    translate which works on an auto process that only tranlates one word at a time, not sentence structure.

  • Tyran_Ohsor
    Tyran_Ohsor avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 4
    0
    0
    0
    Tyran_Ohsor avatar
    Tyran_Ohsor
    --> @Stephen
    I was asking for evidence from the actual bible and it  a fact that the bible exists.

    .......If we are expected to take the bible at face value and to be the truth, 
    You are perfectly illustrating the hollow premises theists constantly dream up in order to make a (pseudo) point, as per post #7: 
    .....you wish to play with semantics and say something like, "The fact is that Billy Graham said...."

    From a logical perspective, anyone who creates something and lets it go, subject to the laws of nature or through "free will" is still responsible for the outcome or effect of that creation.
    The captain of a ship or the CEO of a company is ultimately responsible for how the ship goes or the fortunes of the company. 
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @RoderickSpode
    other than the believers who've been giving answers here,


    Really! OK so remind mind me-I must have missed it. Where is it that YOU explain the origins of evil on this thread.

    And I notice yet again you have somehow missed post # three, where I have actually addressed all of your pointless and irrelevant comments including your predictable and irrelevant verses from James I.  So just for you, here is is again:

    There's an obvious problem with this topic as usual, because of your ranting and overzealous posturing you ask questions then you leave no room for an answer.

    No one is stopping you answering.

    You seem to have had no problem and have found many words in response but nothing that explains or answers the question that should be pretty straight - forward for all believers. You, I am assuming, do not lay the blame for the existence of evil at gods door, if that is the case, then who? is all I am asking.

    how did I know you were going to roll out the old Isaiah passage lol?

    I don't know but I knew 100%  that you wouldn't. "LOL"


    You ask believers a question then you go on about why and how they can't answer that question lol,

    Lol away sunshine. Is all I have politely asked is  those that are  interested  not clog up this thread with quotes and verses from the scriptures that have absolutely nothing to do with the question. If any quoted verses are relevant, I will indeed take them into consideration before debunking them with your own scripture or simply agreeing with what has been produced and offered as an explanation. 




    But I'll say it again so there's not room for confusion.

    I agree. There certainly isn't.  Considering that once again god himself tells us the it was he who created "ALL evil" along with ALL other things in existence.  And you have the brass balls to tell me I haven't read the scriptures.

    As for all your mumbo jumbo about God creating mental illnesses and "diseases" and what not, again those are not things so they are not included as things that God created.



    Just as I predicted. You will only claim that your god created only the fluffy nice things. So let us take just one piece of my "mumbo jumbo" then.  

     The bible tells us that god created " the heavens and the earth.Genesis 1:1    It is also said  just 31 short verses after that "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. ." 1:31

    But it wasn't good at all was it. The earth is riddled with faults; (they will be the causes you mentioned). The earth  is also stretched and  pulled in all directions when certain planets in the heavens that the bible says he also created, line up and their proximity is closer to earth. YES, this was your gods creation that the bible says he was happy with and all of it was "good".

     
    Here is a list of earth quakes that have happened on the earth that god is said to have created, faults and all. I haven't included the body count.


    ^^^^^^^^^^ shows that your god obviously has no control whatsoever over his own creation.


    The scripture you have reproduced above doesn't explain where evil originated, it simply recognizes that evil  exists. This is a perfect example of what I mean by posting IRRELEVANT scripture to explain away the origins of evil. But the thing here you see, is that you have quite purposefully have left out what god himself has to say about the origin of evil:

    Isaiah 45:7 King James Version 
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things".

    This is not to mention the other verses where god throws his hand up to possessing and creating "evil".

    God it is also said in the scripture sent an evil spirit to Saul, that he had created. 

    And ;

    “Thus says the LORD, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household".


    God said -  "I make peaceand create evilI the Lord do all these things". Isaiah 45:7.  There is also Lamentations 3:38 saying both evil and good come from god.





  • RoderickSpode
    RoderickSpode avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 834
    2
    2
    2
    RoderickSpode avatar
    RoderickSpode
    --> @Stephen
    I'm not sure why you're addressing this to me. The top quote was from me, but everything else I think was from EtrnlVw. Is that who you meant to address?

    And EtrnVw has addressed the question of evil very clearly. I don't know if anyone could be more clear. I can almost feel the potential frustration of breaking it down the way he has only to be fired back at with the same question.
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @RoderickSpode
    It was space saving. But no one has addressed anything concerning the question. and certainly not you. 

    You have claimed that:


    "But as far as what you're interested in, it's obvious not in finding answers, but making a statement to convince somebody other than the believers who've been giving answers here, and at least in one other thread". 

    Please note the bold underlined above. Now  direct me to  the "believers who've been giving answers here" concerning the question of the topic, the origins of evil. "The believers here" that you mention, that  includes you   have avoided the question and as predicted posted other irrelevant nonsense as if this somehow explains and answers the question.  

    I have put forward what the bible actually; states as the answer to this question, but again, as predicted in post #1  this biblical evidence is not acceptable to said "believers" but they still offer no alternative and neither have YOU. 
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @RoderickSpode
    other than the believers who've been giving answers here, .

    I am still waiting for you to  direct me to  the "believers who've been giving answers here" concerning the question of the topic: the origins of evil.



    I have given my answer, but, not surprisingly, it is a answer that isn't  accepted by the Christian apologist.:


    God said -  "I make peaceand create evilI the Lord do all these things". Isaiah 45:7.  There is also Lamentations 3:38 saying both evil and good come from god.

    Tell me, would a god claim to be the  creator of evil if he wasn't?





  • RoderickSpode
    RoderickSpode avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 834
    2
    2
    2
    RoderickSpode avatar
    RoderickSpode
    --> @Stephen

    I am still waiting for you to  direct me to  the "believers who've been giving answers here" concerning the question of the topic: the origins of evil.



    I have given my answer, but, not surprisingly, it is a answer that isn't  accepted by the Christian apologist.:


    God said -  "I make peaceand create evilI the Lord do all these things". Isaiah 45:7.  There is also Lamentations 3:38 saying both evil and good come from god.

    Tell me, would a god claim to be the  creator of evil if he wasn't?
    The "evil" in both those verses "ra" have 2 basic meanings in the Hebrew translation. Natural or moral. The first 2 words provided in my Concordance is adversity, and affliction. Either of those 2 would be a sufficient description. So rather than God creating evil (or immorality), creating a form of judgment would be  what's suggested.

    If you don't accept that translation for those 2 specific verses, here's another example being used with the same Hebrew word.

    Genesis 44:34 King James Version (KJV)
    34 For how shall I go up to my father, and the lad be not with me? lest peradventure I see the evil that shall come on my father.

    The NIV version replaces the word evil with misery. Would you agree that the word misery would be more appropriate in context than some form of immorality?


  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,455
    3
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @RoderickSpode

    I am still waiting for you to  direct me to  the "believers who've been giving answers here" concerning the question of the topic: the origins of evil.



    I have given my answer, but, not surprisingly, it is a answer that isn't  accepted by the Christian apologist.:


    God said -  "I make peaceand create evilI the Lord do all these things". Isaiah 45:7.  There is also Lamentations 3:38 saying both evil and good come from god.

    Tell me, would a god claim to be the  creator of evil if he wasn't?
    The "evil" in both those verses "ra" have 2 basic meanings in the Hebrew translation. Natural or moral. The first 2 words provided in my Concordance is adversity, and affliction. Either of those 2 would be a sufficient description. So rather than God creating evil (or immorality), creating a form of judgment would be  what's suggested.

    What ever are you talking about man? 
     Lamentations 3:38 King James Version (KJV)
    38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? <<<<<<<<<<<< this is a question asked and not a statement. It is saying that ` both good and evil come from god `  no matter how much you - predictably- want to change it and wish it to mean something other than what it actually states. 




    If you don't accept that translation for those 2 specific verses, here's another example being used with the same Hebrew word.

    Genesis 44:34 King James Version (KJV)
    34 For how shall I go up to my father, and the lad be not with me? lest peradventure I see the evil that shall come on my father.
     This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ does not explain the origins of Evil.