Who Can Explain This Verse To Me?

Author: Stephen ,

Topic's posts

Posts in total: 55
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,303
    2
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"


  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,303
    2
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    And this one?


    if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19. KJV.

  • rosends
    rosends avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 204
    0
    1
    6
    rosends avatar
    rosends
    --> @Stephen
    Not really an "explanation" but a contextualization. I see much of the content of the gospels as a copying of the style and approach of the "OT". So since in the book of Deuteronomy (the last of the 5 books of Moses) it is written "See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it." I believe that the gospel writers included an echo of that in their own final book.

    Just my take on it.
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,303
    2
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
     do not add to it or take away from it."
    So in the case of the two quoted above, would this be referring to the bible as a whole, just the Old Testament or Just the New Testament?

  • rosends
    rosends avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 204
    0
    1
    6
    rosends avatar
    rosends
    --> @Stephen
    If you are asking about the two verses from Revelation, I can't explain them nor establish their parameters. I think the whole thing was an attempt to copy the Deut. verse.
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,303
    2
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @rosends
    I think the whole thing was an attempt to copy the Deut. verse.
    Indeed. It is not uncommon for these NT gospellers to lift stories from the OT and pass them off as some kind of Prophecy or attempt to give us the impression that they are events happening in their own time.
    I would thou like someone to explain to me what or which parts of the bible do these two verses from Revelation actually apply to?
  • SkepticalOne
    SkepticalOne avatar
    Debates: 6
    Forum posts: 586
    2
    2
    6
    SkepticalOne avatar
    SkepticalOne
    --> @Stephen
    Interpolation and redaction were known to exist to the author of Revelation (which I recognize one of the verses above is from) and this was his attempt to keep his writing unchanged.
  • EtrnlVw
    EtrnlVw avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 2,206
    2
    3
    4
    EtrnlVw avatar
    EtrnlVw
    --> @rosends
    Just my take on it.

    Goodness, that's the style and approach from Genesis to Malachi isn't it? why should it stop at the "NT"? I thought that was the point of the WHOLE Bible, that each author and book to some degree echoed what was said previously....that's what makes it coherent, an account from beginning to ending. The OT was not written by one author and one period of time obviously, each author/prophet picked up where the other left...used their style and echoed the teachers before them. I mean it's obvious you have no intention of ever granting the NT works as an extension of the OT but not everyone feels that way. It's obvious there would and should be references of the OT and is perfectly coherent. They didn't just randomly copy verses from the OT for the fun of it, those "copied" verses were supporting the account surrounding the events recorded....which were an extension of the OT of course. I would change the word "copying" to tradition and purpose, as it WAS their scriptures and their tradition and they used those to support not copy from it. There's a difference there in what you're trying to portray and would explain why you find it useless.
    It should be pretty obvious to anyone that the verse in question would apply to both works, not just the old...if they are to be coherent.


  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,303
    2
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @SkepticalOne
    So, those two verses you believe  only apply to the last book of the New Testament - Revelation  -  in your opinion?
  • SkepticalOne
    SkepticalOne avatar
    Debates: 6
    Forum posts: 586
    2
    2
    6
    SkepticalOne avatar
    SkepticalOne
    --> @Stephen
    Yes, of course. The author of Revelation had no clue his book would be lashed to others in a future canon. His warning was meant to protect his writing only.

  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,303
    2
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @EtrnlVw
    It should be pretty obvious to anyone that the verse in question would apply to both works, not just the old...if they are to be coherent.

      "Obvious" . Not to me. That is why I asked for clarity.  But I have no reason not to take your word for it.

    So just so that I/we are clear, are you saying that those two dire warnings about "adding" to and "taking away from" the scriptures, in actuality are warnings not to alter, retract, extrapolate, add , misinterpret and misrepresent any part of the Old or New Testaments and not just the last book - Revelation?
  • EtrnlVw
    EtrnlVw avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 2,206
    2
    3
    4
    EtrnlVw avatar
    EtrnlVw
    --> @Stephen
    As a general rule of thumb I would say it applies to all scripture. But what was referring to precisely in this verse I'm not totally sure, however the passage clearly says THIS BOOK. 
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,303
    2
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @SkepticalOne
    Interpolation and redaction were known to exist to the author of Revelation

     And it seems nothing has changed. Because warnings have gone unheeded, depending on if we believe EtrnlVw or anyone else who believes these two warnings apply to the whole of the bible.


    That said, one has to wonder, if these two dire warning only apply to the last book - Revelation, then this leaves the rest of the New Testament at least open to all kinds of editing where the editor will go unpunished. This would include all of the books that were left out of the final draft, all other writings, the gnostic gospels, the Gospel of Thomas, the Lost gospel of Judas, the gospel of Mary Magdalene, the original works of Marks gospel without its added part and the part that was taken away, and many more .

     To my knowledge Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria compiled a list of works to be included in the New Testament.  this list was then ratified by the church council of Hippo in 393 and again at the council of Carthage a few years later.  The works were finally agreed upon and were assembled to form the New Testament as we know it today.   Others were simply discarded and ignored. How can such a selection process be regarded as definitive?  How could this private meeting of clerics infallibly decide that certain books somehow belonged and others did not? especially seeing some of these excluded books have a perfectly valid claim to historical veracity.

    Do Christians even realise that these books that make up the New Testament were decided by humans and a not so called "god". More's the point, do they even care?


  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,303
    2
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @EtrnlVw
     however the passage clearly says THIS BOOK. 

     It does. But the bible is made up of 66 books to my knowledge. Wouldn't this gospeller have wrote "books" plural?
  • EtrnlVw
    EtrnlVw avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 2,206
    2
    3
    4
    EtrnlVw avatar
    EtrnlVw
    --> @Stephen
    Excuse me, I did in fact mean "this book" as in revelations. But I'd say it's a basic principle. 

    In other words it could both apply directly to the works of revelations, as well as scripture as a whole. 
  • SkepticalOne
    SkepticalOne avatar
    Debates: 6
    Forum posts: 586
    2
    2
    6
    SkepticalOne avatar
    SkepticalOne
    --> @Stephen
    Do Christians even realise that these books that make up the New Testament were decided by humans and a not so called "god".
    I think most Christians do not know how the NT canon came to be. I know I certainly was unaware when I was a believer. 

  • EtrnlVw
    EtrnlVw avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 2,206
    2
    3
    4
    EtrnlVw avatar
    EtrnlVw
    --> @Stephen
    Do Christians even realise that these books that make up the New Testament were decided by humans and a not so called "god". More's the point, do they even care?

    The whole Bible is the testimony of humans. However, it's the principles and spiritual laws/concepts within the teachings are what we are examining. Regardless of who put the traditional Bible together it is irrelevant to the concepts and teachings/principles contained within. 

    And it seems nothing has changed. Because warnings have gone unheeded, depending on if we believe EtrnlVw or anyone else who believes these two warnings apply to the whole of the bible.

    You're not using commonsense again, why would the same principle not apply to the rest of the scriptures? it's also mentioned in the OT so I really don't see what the issue is. 

    However, as I said...I do in fact believe the passage in revelations is referring to revelations. 
  • EtrnlVw
    EtrnlVw avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 2,206
    2
    3
    4
    EtrnlVw avatar
    EtrnlVw
    --> @SkepticalOne
    I think most Christians do not know how the NT canon came to be.

    Maybe in your typical church pews, but certainly not here or in debate forums. 
  • rosends
    rosends avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 204
    0
    1
    6
    rosends avatar
    rosends
    --> @EtrnlVw
    You are correct in your assessment that I will never grant the gospels any measure of authenticity or authority so let's put that aside so I can ask a simple question (not because I doubt you but because I know my own limits and that I am still learning):

    Is there any other instance in the "OT" in which a writer, at the end of his book, makes the same injunction against anyone's adding or taking away from his book? It would be a fascinating analysis for me to do if this happens throughout the text. Please let me know where I can find this "echo" throughout the "OT".

    Thanks in advance!
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,303
    2
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @EtrnlVw
    Excuse me, I did in fact mean "this book" as in revelations. But I'd say it's a basic principle. 

    In other words it could both apply directly to the works of revelations, as well as scripture as a whole. 

    So you don't know now and or cannot now make your mind up. It is either the whole bible or just the last book "- Revelation.
    Even after you said it: 
     
    It should be pretty obvious to anyone that the verse in question would apply to both works, not just the old...if they are to be coherent.

    Not so "pretty obvious" to anyone  now is it? Including yourself.
  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,303
    2
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @EtrnlVw
    The whole Bible is the testimony of humans.
    It is but many Christians Believe they are “god inspired”.
     
    However, it's the principles and spiritual laws/concepts within the teachings are what we are examining.
    We? That being Christians?
     
    Regardless of who put the traditional Bible together it is irrelevant to the concepts and teachings/principles contained within. 
     
    It should be concerning the evidence shows they have been heavily edited have been heavily edited,  contrary to Revelation.
     
    why would the same principle not apply to the rest of the scriptures? 
     
    I haven’t suggested it does or doesn’t, but you have. And this is why Christians should be a little concerned. Given those horrid and dire warnings.
     
    it's also mentioned in the OT so I really don't see what the issue is. 
     
     The issue is that, if indeed as you say the dire warnings apply to the bible as a whole then the warnings in Revelations Have gone unheeded in the NT in particular.
     
    However, as I said...Ido in fact believe the passage in revelations is referring to revelations. 
     
     So you have not only contradicted yourself,you are now saying that these warnings apply only to the last book of the New testament– Revelation. That is what I wanted you to make clear from the off and you told me :
    It should be pretty obvious to anyone that the verse in question would apply to both works, not just the old...if they are to be coherent. Post 8 above
    I think it is pretty noticeable that your not sure which way to go on this simple question. 
  • SkepticalOne
    SkepticalOne avatar
    Debates: 6
    Forum posts: 586
    2
    2
    6
    SkepticalOne avatar
    SkepticalOne
    --> @EtrnlVw
    I would agree our debaters here are much more likely to be in-the-know, but not all of them.
  • EtrnlVw
    EtrnlVw avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 2,206
    2
    3
    4
    EtrnlVw avatar
    EtrnlVw
    --> @Stephen
    The whole Bible is the testimony of humans.

    It is but many Christians Believe they are “god inspired”.

    Through a TESTIMONY.....come on man.
     
    However, it's the principles and spiritual laws/concepts within the teachings are what we are examining.

    We? That being Christians?

    Yes.
     
    Regardless of who put the traditional Bible together it is irrelevant to the concepts and teachings/principles contained within.
     
    It should be concerning the evidence shows they have been heavily edited have been heavily edited,  contrary to Revelation.

    Revelations doesn't say it would never happen that's why it was warned......come on man, it said that IF it did......the warning applies to those who did such things, if and when they did. However you're going to have to offer something so I can agree or not agree with your claim.
     why would the same principle not apply to the rest of the scriptures?
     
    I haven’t suggested it does or doesn’t, but you have.

    Then what are you arguing about?

    And this is why Christians should be a little concerned. Given those horrid and dire warnings.

    The warnings were for those who whishes to corrupt a Divine revelation. So why would anyone do it or even want to?
     
    it's also mentioned in the OT so I really don't see what the issue is.

    The issue is that, if indeed as you say the dire warnings apply to the bible as a whole then the warnings in Revelations Have gone unheeded in the NT in particular.
     Really, and how would you know that? considering the punishments were for those who committed it?

    However, as I said...Ido in fact believe the passage in revelations is referring to revelations.
     
     So you have not only contradicted yourself,you are now saying that these warnings apply only to the last book of the New testament– Revelation. That is what I wanted you to make clear from the off and you told me :
    It should be pretty obvious to anyone that the verse in question would apply to both works, not just the old...if they are to be coherent. Post 8 above
    I think it is pretty noticeable that your not sure which way to go on this simple question.
    And I explained, there's no reason for me to assume there aren't consequences for tampering with Divine inspired scriptures as a general rule. It's mentioned for the book of revelations and it is mentioned in the OT.

  • Stephen
    Stephen avatar
    Debates: 0
    Forum posts: 3,303
    2
    2
    2
    Stephen avatar
    Stephen
    --> @EtrnlVw
    And I explained,there's no reason for me to assume there aren't consequences for tampering withDivine inspired scriptures as a general rule. It's mentioned for the book ofrevelations and it is mentioned in the OT.
     
     So your are only assuming/guessing or believe then that these direwarning “could/would/do “ apply to the ENTIRE bible.

  • PGA2.0
    PGA2.0 avatar
    Debates: 4
    Forum posts: 2,339
    3
    3
    7
    PGA2.0 avatar
    PGA2.0
    --> @Stephen


    Who Can Explain This Verse To Me? - "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"


    The rule of Scripture is that Scripture is its own interpreter:


    Revelation 22:18 (KJV)
    18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

    Revelation 22:18 (NIV)
    18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

    Revelation 22:18 (NASB)
    18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;

    Revelation is likely the reference to the book, the prophecy is "these things." Another reference could be the book of life. I believe both are reasonable.

    At the time of writing the warning is to things that must SHORTLY come to pass (Revelation 1:1, 3). The time is near.

    ***

    And this one?
    if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19. KJV.
    The author of Revelation, John, was writing to a 1st-century Jewish audience of coming judgment. Hence the many references to OT Scripture (more than any other NT epistle or gospel  - some have identified almost 300 OT references).  Revelation is also a revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. What applies to God in the OT is applied to Jesus in the NT and also in Revelation. He is given the same worship as God.

    It can be reasonably shown that Revelation is John's version of the Olivet Discourse. It can also be shown that the prophecies concern the destruction of the city and temple in AD 70. There are various internal references that date the book, plus various symbols that identify the city called Babylon as Jerusalem that make Babylon impossible to be any other city. The Revelation can be shown to be God's Deuteronomy judgments or curses on an OT people (thus seven-fold). The judgment is because His covenant people (Mosaic Covenant) have heaped up their sins to the limit. The abolishment of that covenantal agreement and the relationship that came with it is terminated in AD 70. Thus, after this point in time, there is no more temple, no more priesthood, no more animal sacrifice to atone for the sins of the nation (Hebrews 8:13).   

    The book of life is referenced in Daniel 12 and speaks of this judgment where those who believe are rewarded and those who disbelieve are punished:

    Daniel 12 “Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.”

    Daniel speaks of sealing up the book/scrolls until the time of the end (i.e., end of the OT age).
    Revelation speaks of opening the book of life and the unsealed of the scrolls that Daniel was told to seal up. It speaks of this time of judgment for Daniel's people (i.e., Old Mosaic Covenant).
    Revelation 22 speaks of this time of judgment, which is soon coming to the 1st-century people. Daniel also mentions this time is FAR away, in these words:

    Daniel 12:7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed. As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?” He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.

    The entire Book of Revelation is concerned with this soon coming judgment and the return in judgment and revelation of Jesus (who He is).

    Daniel 12:13 But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.”

    The end of the OT age is when the books of judgment are again opened. It is the time of AD 70 when the OT ritualized temple worship and OT economy is put to an end. Jesus speaks of it in Matthew 24:3, 34. Their heaven and earth, everything they knew as a way of life, came to an end in AD 70. Revelation is a detailed account of the end to, the "last days," the day of wrath," and the end of the age. 


    Matthew 5:17-18 (NASB)
    17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    Hebrews 8:13  (NASB)
    13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

    Both Daniel and Revelation speak of the time of resurrection of Daniel's people.