God's Mercy ? It Just Cannot Be Justifide At All.

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  • Stephen
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    mercy
    /ˈməːsi/
    Learn to pronounce

    noun

    1. compassion or forgiveness shown towards someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm.
      "the boy was screaming and begging for mercy"

      Similar:
      leniency, lenience, clemency, compassion, grace, pity


      There are many verses in the bible that just cannot be misinterpreted , misread or misunderstood, as much as the apologist will have us believe that they can. 

    For instance Luke 6:36  "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful".  So here "the father" -  I am going to assume means god, -is merciful.

    And there can be no mistaking what is meant by this verse either:

    Ephesians 2:4  "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy".

    So what happened to for example, Lot's wife? 

    "But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt". Genesis 19:26  Murdered just for looking in the wrong direction at the wrong time. Fair enough, they were all given a warning  but to be sentenced to death for simple human curiosity  is not showing mercy is it?  she wasn't even given a chance to "repent" either! Where was god's mercy?

    Children mauled to death for name calling!

    2 Kings 2:23-24  "And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
     And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them".
     And " baldy" aka Elisha, didn't bat an eyelid, he simply went on his way.  Not a single bit of mercy was shown towards these children by "the father".

    No mercy was shown to Job's children when "the father " sanctioned the murder of all of them  for no reason at all. Job 1:13-22


    There are many of these verses where god,  "the Father" who loves us shows that he has not a single merciful bone in his body.

     One can only suppose that to god,  "the father who is full of mercy"..... and to Christian apologists, mercy must mean something different to what any level - headed human being understands mercy to mean.

    Lets have another look at the meaning of mercy.


    mercy
    /ˈməːsi/
    Learn to pronounce

    noun

    1. compassion or forgiveness shown towards someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm.
      "the boy was screaming and begging for mercy"

      Similar:
      leniency, lenience, clemency, compassion, grace, pity







  • RoderickSpode
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    --> @Stephen


    1. compassion or forgiveness shown towards someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm.
      "the boy was screaming and begging for mercy"

      Similar:
      leniency, lenience, clemency, compassion, grace, pity


      There are many verses in the bible that just cannot be misinterpreted , misread or misunderstood, as much as the apologist will have us believe that they can. 

    For instance Luke 6:36  "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful".  So here "the father" -  I am going to assume means god, -is merciful.

    And there can be no mistaking what is meant by this verse either:

    Ephesians 2:4  "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy".

    So what happened to for example, Lot's wife? 

    "But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt". Genesis 19:26  Murdered just for looking in the wrong direction at the wrong time. Fair enough, they were all given a warning  but to be sentenced to death for simple human curiosity  is not showing mercy is it?  she wasn't even given a chance to "repent" either! Where was god's mercy?

    You're misinterpreting this as a suggestion that Lot's wife simply turned around, and glanced back at the city. She actually stayed behind to watch the city burn. The angel's warning consisted of why they needed to get out of there as quickly as possible. An example might be, if one of the Israelites refused to walk through the divided Red Sea, they would have been caught by the Egyptians.

    Children mauled to death for name calling!

    2 Kings 2:23-24  "And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
     And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them".
     And " baldy" aka Elisha, didn't bat an eyelid, he simply went on his way.  Not a single bit of mercy was shown towards these children by "the father".

    These were not little children. The Hebrew word used in this text includes young men. It was typical at that time in the Northern Kingdom for men to harass prophets. This was a mob. Not a group of little children. They probably meant physical harm to Elisha (common with mobs).

    No mercy was shown to Job's children when "the father " sanctioned the murder of all of them  for no reason at all. Job 1:13-22


    There are many of these verses where god,  "the Father" who loves us shows that he has not a single merciful bone in his body.

     One can only suppose that to god,  "the father who is full of mercy"..... and to Christian apologists, mercy must mean something different to what any level - headed human being understands mercy to mean.



     We all die. The question is what happens afterwards. What do you think happened to Job's children after their death?




  • Stephen
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    --> @RoderickSpode




    1. There are many verses in the bible that just cannot be misinterpreted , misread or misunderstood, as much as the apologist will have us believe that they can. 

    For instance Luke 6:36  "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful".  So here "the father" -  I am going to assume means god, -is merciful.

    And there can be no mistaking what is meant by this verse either:

    Ephesians 2:4  "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy".

    So what happened to for example, Lot's wife? 

    "But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt". Genesis 19:26  Murdered just for looking in the wrong direction at the wrong time. Fair enough, they were all given a warning  but to be sentenced to death for simple human curiosity  is not showing mercy is it?  she wasn't even given a chance to "repent" either! Where was god's mercy?

    You're misinterpreting this as a suggestion that Lot's wife simply turned around, and glanced back at the city.
    She actually stayed behind to watch the city burn.

    And god killed her  for her simple human curiosity. Again your trying to explain away this unnecessary and pointless murder  that deprived two children of their mother and a man of his wife. There is absolutely nothing written before or after her death concerning Lot's wife lingering and rubbernecking at the utter disaster behind her.  And certainly not a single mention of  her"staying behind" to watch the fire works.  Look!>>.



     Genesis 19:20-30  Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. 27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.
    29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19%3A20-30&version=NIV


    So stop lying and making things up. Why are you attempting to add to and rewrite the scriptures AGAIN!!!? And where is the mercy  shown here from "the father"?




    Children mauled to death for name calling!

    2 Kings 2:23-24  "And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
     And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them".
     And " baldy" aka Elisha, didn't bat an eyelid, he simply went on his way.  Not a single bit of mercy was shown towards these children by "the father".

    These were not little children. The Hebrew word used in this text includes young men. It was typical at that time in the Northern Kingdom for men to harass prophets. This was a mob. Not a group of little children. They probably meant physical harm to Elisha (common with mobs).


    Again, you are contradicting what the scripture actually says.  There was no mention of harm and no mention of "baldy" being harmed by these CHILDREN. there is ONLY  name calling as CHILDREN DO!.  And  young men, or children, it is all besides the point , where was the mercy shown by "the father".. 




    No mercy was shown to Job's children when "the father " sanctioned the murder of all of them  for no reason at all. Job 1:13-22


    There are many of these verses where god,  "the Father" who loves us shows that he has not a single merciful bone in his body.

     One can only suppose that to god,  "the father who is full of mercy"..... and to Christian apologists, mercy must mean something different to what any level - headed human being understands mercy to mean.



     We all die.

    We do, but we don't all get murdered for nothing or on a whim by a supernatural being that is supposed to be a "merciful father" . Where is the mercy?



    The question is what happens afterwards.

    No, the question - that you have totally avoided on all three occasions above -  IS,   where is the mercy of "the father".




  • Stephen
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    "I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments." (Ex. 20:5-6)

    Where is "the fathers mercy" shown towards these innocent children?
  • Melcharaz
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    --> @Stephen
    mercy
    /ˈməːsi/
    Learn to pronounce

    noun

    1. compassion or forgiveness shown towards someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm.
      "the boy was screaming and begging for mercy"

      Similar:
      leniency, lenience, clemency, compassion, grace, pity

    Alrighty, now lets look at Gods mercy logically. Using the definition you posted. 

    Its irrefutable that God shows mercy, as he could destroy all of creation and sends everyone to hell. So thats not the problem

    The problem im seeing is the "freedom" of mercy being contested. After all, showing any form of compassion is showing mercy. But your understanding of his "freedom" of mercy, doesnt align with your pre supposed ideas.

    Instead of showing you HOW merciful God is. (Assuming we use his own words, ie, the bible)
    lets reason WHAT mercy is to God and compare it to human morality. 

    Romans 5:8-10 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 

    God died for his enemies. We are born enemies of God. 
    Compare to human morality. We dont die for our enemies, we curse them or cause ruin to them, or ignore them, or even kill them.

    Why does God die for his enemies?
    He loves us. 
    Why would people die for others?
    We love them.

    Therefore God is more merciful and compassionate than man.


    Now, the freedom of mercy.
    Romans 9:18-23 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    1a: he freely gives mercy to whom he will. Why? Why not be always merciful? That he may show his power and righteousness by condemning evil

    1b: man gives mercy to whom he will. Why? More than 1 reason, but its not to condemn evil.

    Humans cannot righteously judge Gods mercy, or even logically based on laws which we use to guide social structure and morality. Why? Because God exceeds it.


    Thank you for reading, im not intrested in arguements, semantics or strawmen comments. If violates coc i report. 


  • Stephen
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    @ , MELCHARAZ

    ALL RATHER COWARDLY TO RESPOND TO A POST IN A THREAD AND THEN BLOCK THE RECIPIENT FROM RESPONDING.


    ALL THE SAME>>>

    Alrighty, now lets look at Gods mercy logically. Using the definition you posted. 

    Ok.

    Its irrefutable that God shows mercy, as he could destroy all of creation and sends everyone to hell....... 

    Indeed he destroyed the whole earth and everything on it once and showed not  one iota of mercy for the innocent. This is not no mention the populations of towns and cities he destroyed once the earth was re- populated.


    ........So thats not the problem. 

    It is if he , like he has done so in the past, shown absolutely no mercy for the innocent.


    [A] The problem im seeing is the "freedom" of mercy being contested.

    No. It is lack of mercy, period,  that is being contested. Particularly in the light that Christian apologists  will have us believe that "the father "   is merciful. And  gods "freedom" to slaughter the innocent at the drop of an hat cannot be contested. he does kill on a whim and for absolutely no or  trivial  reasons.


    Thank you for reading, im not intrested in arguements, semantics or strawmen

    Nor am I, yet here you are creating a strawman argument. I mentioned nothing of "the fathers"  freedom. See [A] above.

    So why don't we  stick to the topic of the thread and not what you claim the topic to be about.  You could start for instance by explaining the lack of gods mercy in the examples I provided in the OP and at post #4.

    Thank you for reading too.











  • RoderickSpode
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    --> @Stephen

    And god killed her  for her simple human curiosity. Again your trying to explain away this unnecessary and pointless murder  that deprived two children of their mother and a man of his wife. There is absolutely nothing written before or after her death concerning Lot's wife lingering and rubbernecking at the utter disaster behind her.  And certainly not a single mention of  her"staying behind" to watch the fire works.  Look!>>.
    Ok, let's look.


     Genesis 19:20-30  Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. 27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19%3A20-30&version=NIV
    Where does it say she looked back out of curiosity?




    So stop lying and making things up. Why are you attempting to add to and rewrite the scriptures AGAIN!!!? And where is the mercy  shown here from "the father"?

    The Hebrew word  for looked in this verse is nabat.


    to scan, i.e. look intently at; by implication to look at with pleasure, favor or care: - behold, cause to behold, consider, look, look down, regard, have respect.



    Do these definitions sound like someone who just got curious to see what a city looks like when being destroyed?

    And stop telling me I'm lying and making things up.


    Again, you are contradicting what the scripture actually says.  There was no mention of harm and no mention of "baldy" being harmed by these CHILDREN. there is ONLY  name calling as CHILDREN DO!.  And  young men, or children, it is all besides the point , where was the mercy shown by "the father".. 

     Give me one good reason why this verse (amongst other verses about killing prophets) shouldn't be considered in light of the text in question?


    2 Chronicles 36:16 New International Version (NIV)

    16 But they mocked God’s messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the Lord was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.



    We do, but we don't all get murdered for nothing or on a whim by a supernatural being that is supposed to be a "merciful father" . Where is the mercy?

    We actually don't know if Job's children were innocent because Job was constantly interceding for them in case they should sin. So it seems evident that Job was very concerned about their moral conduct. In light of them having a possible immoral lifestyle, if Job's children were taken to Paradise, wouldn't you consider that merciful?


    No, the question - that you have totally avoided on all three occasions above -  IS,   where is the mercy of "the father".

    You mean mercy as in forgiving all sins unconditionally?




  • Tradesecret
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    --> @Stephen
    The whole point about mercy is it is not deserved.  Grace is unmerited gift. Mercy is undeserved leniency. 

    Once we start trying to understand who deserves or does not deserve mercy - we have already misunderstood the concept. 

    Did Lot's wife deserve mercy? Answer - irrelevant.  If she did deserve leniency, then what she needed was not mercy, but justice. If she did not deserve mercy, then whether God demonstrated mercy towards her or not - is a matter for God's wisdom, not us trying to ascertain it. 


  • Stephen
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     Genesis 19:20-30
      Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt. 27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+19%3A20-30&version=NIV
    Where does it say she looked back out of curiosity?


    Play semantics all day. But tell me did she look back out of sheer and intentional defiance? 



    So stop lying and making things up. Why are you attempting to add to and rewrite the scriptures AGAIN!!!? And where is the mercy  shown here from "the father"?

    The Hebrew word  for looked in this verse is nabat.


    to scan, i.e. look intently at; by implication to look at with pleasure, favor or care: - behold, cause to behold, consider, look, look down, regard, have respect.


     You are asking me above where in the verse does it mention "curiosity".  And now you want to introduce other words into the text such as - scan -look intently  at  - look at with pleasure, favor or care !!! It mentions none of these things at all does it. And on another thread you go to pains to tell me that " "There's no need to look at original language and translation, historical back ground,cultural context, etc." but here you are , grasping for the ancient texts like a drowning man in an attempt to excuse  and explain away the total lack of mercy shown by "the father".


    Do these definitions sound like someone who just got curious

    No because it simply says in clear unambiguous language that she "looked back", which from a human standard would simple be out of curiosity. It wouldn't necessarily mean to  "look at with pleasure, favor" or defiance. Besides she wouldn't have had time to "scan" and take in the panorama with "with pleasure and favor or to "consider anything at all".   You are rewriting scripture AGAIN!

    And stop telling me I'm lying and making things up.

    I will when you cease putting words into the mouths of the biblical authors or presenting your biblical opinions as biblical fact.



    Again, you are contradicting what the scripture actually says.  There was no mention of harm and no mention of "baldy" being harmed by these CHILDREN. there is ONLY  name calling as CHILDREN DO!.  And  young men, or children, it is all besides the point , where was the mercy shown by "the father".. 

     Give me one good reason why this verse (amongst other verses about killing prophets) shouldn't be considered in light of the text in question?
    This is exactly what I mean by YOU making things up and introducing things into these stories/scriptures that are not even there!!!!!  You are an hopeless fraud. 

    Did "baldy"aka Elisha  die?  Did these "children" kill this prophet?  No, he didn't and these "CHILDREN"  didn't kill him either.  He may have had his feeling hurt by "CHILDREN",   but it didn't stop him going on his merry  way even after seeing these children torn to pieces , no he didn't bat an eyelid. And "the father" showed no mercy to these little children either for doing what children do.
      Go away.  You are desperate to explain the unexplainable callousness of "the father" that is supposed to be "merciful".



    I notice you are responding on behalf of the addressee. I don't mind but don't ever complain again whenever I do the same.


  • RoderickSpode
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    --> @Stephen

     You are asking me above where in the verse does it mention "curiosity".  And now you want to introduce other words into the text such as - scan -look intently  at  - look at with pleasure, favor or care !!! It mentions none of these things at all does it. And on another thread you go to pains to tell me that " "There's no need to look at original language and translation, historical back ground,cultural context, etc." but here you are , grasping for the ancient texts like a drowning man in an attempt to excuse  and explain away the total lack of mercy shown by "the father".
    For crying out loud. I said you do have to look at original language and translation, historical back ground, cultural context, etc.

    I may have worded as you don't look at original language and translation, historical back ground, cultural context, etc. But you do need to.

    And the bizarre thing of this all is you probably still won't get!


  • RoderickSpode
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    --> @Stephen
    There was no mention of harm and no mention of "baldy" being harmed by these CHILDREN. there is ONLY  name calling as CHILDREN DO!.
    A Freudian slip perhaps?
  • Stephen
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    --> @RoderickSpode
    For crying out loud. I said you do have to look at original language and translation, historical back ground, cultural context, etc.

    Go and see for YOURSELF what YOU wrote originally!!!  

    RoderickSpode, wrote: You seem to have this idea that if something appears contradictory there's no further examination needed. There's no need to look at original language and translation, historical back ground, cultural context, etc. #27



    If that was a grammatical mistake, simply say so. 

    That said, if you now have changed your mind OR you are saying it was a grammatical mistake let me tell you something about using "original Hebrew language" as some kind of supporting evidence for your claptrap.

    On linguistic grounds, many of the Old Testament text show evidence of being composed long after the events that they portray. Mishnaic Hebrew , in which most of the OT text were written didn't evolve until the eighth century BC.   And is believed that these may have been translations of even older text, written mnemonic forms occur in the narrative.  Now some scholars agree, that various books of the Old Testament would make no sense if written in the form of  Hebrew language that existed prior to the Assyrian occupation of Palestine around 725 BC. 

    Elements of the OT narrative, such as the early Genesis story were almost certainly added during an even later period following the Babylon occupation.  I .e the Eden story and the flood story.

    There was no mention of harm and no mention of "baldy" being harmed by these CHILDREN. there is ONLY  name calling as CHILDREN DO!.
    A Freudian slip perhaps?

    who's????

  • Stephen
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    Again, you are contradicting what the scripture actually says.  There was no mention of harm and no mention of "baldy" being harmed by these CHILDREN. there is ONLY  name calling as CHILDREN DO!.  And  young men, or children, it is all besides the point , where was the mercy shown by "the father".. 

     Give me one good reason why this verse (amongst other verses about killing prophets) shouldn't be considered in light of the text in question?
    This is exactly what I mean by YOU making things up and introducing things into these stories/scriptures that are not even there!!!!!  You are an hopeless fraud. 

    Did "baldy"aka Elisha  die?  Did these "children" kill this prophet?  No, he didn't and these "CHILDREN"  didn't kill him either.  He may have had his feeling hurt by "CHILDREN",   but it didn't stop him going on his merry  way even after seeing these children torn to pieces , no he didn't bat an eyelid. And "the father" showed no mercy to these little children either for doing what children do.